Recent content by Shire

Sapphire, the accuracy of the Ruby just doesn't compare at range to the pinpoint of Sapphire.

If you get several different kinds of cav archers, like from diff factions, make them be in different groups and micro the hell out of the enemy, flanking and circling them with your different elements of the cav archer army, like go absolutely Total War style on them. Rips **** to pieces. Micromanagement can get pretty dull and old after a few battles though.

Still finding only 3 village quests listed for PoP 3.611 although I'm positive there's at least quests for rescuing village elder's girl and escorting villagers on trade mission.

Default Username said:

Shire, have you read my point that it's not solely based on personal preference when it comes to why I chose the crossbows. I like the crossbows because it can keep a continuous rate of fire for like what, 3 waves of reinforcement? And that is a fact.

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edit: nvm, I'm done with this topic quite fully now, some people just don't apparently get it. Inherent weakness!

I'm simply amazed. No one is arguing about anyone's personal prefence when it comes to these units, we're arguing about which was more efficient, deadly, better. The best archer units you can train, create or recruit are simply better at what they do than the best crossbow can ever be in this game.

Here, you said it yourself:

but stopped doing that when none of the enemy cavalry could reach my line unscathed. It felt cheap and easy to me.

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I don't feel like even arguing the ammo point anymore, it's just as retarded as arguing that cavalry sucks because I once charged them into a pike formation that was sitting in a middle of a river. Made up example before someone get's their pants twisted, no you didn't say it, I did, I just made it up to make a point.


and lastly I agree with Noosers, Power Draw created this problem years ago and seems it's impossible to fix.


So this example or analogy popped in my head while I was sweating in the sauna:

Let us imagine that we have 2 battle rifles, battle rifle A (bows) and battle rifle B (crossbows)
The general characteristics of said weapons are as thus:

BR A fires rounds that deal more damage
BR A fires rounds that have more velocity
BR A refire rate is faster
BR A round can be chambered while moving, while BR B requires the user to stand still to rechamber a round
BR A has better range
BR B penetrates targets armored in a very specific way better, at extreme close ranges. Does not affect any other type of target (simulating shield piercing, which only works for flimsy shields at short range)
BR A and B have nearly identical magazine sizes, although BR A can have a few extra in certain ammo types
In harsh weather conditions, both weapons perform worse, but penalties for BR B are much worse.
By some weird voodoo, the skill of the trooper using BR A also increases the damage its rounds produce.

Now, if we have a trooper with BR A and another with BR B, which one will be more effective in combat? If both fire their weapons non stop, BR A will run out of ammo faster, yea. Is it an inherent weakness of BR A that its user fires off stray shots? Trooper with BR B can ever only fire single rounds at slow rate with immobile rechamber, while BR A can if needed, fire in "bursts" and also move while rechambering.

Would you rather build a force made of troopers using BR A or B? Or no, rather is wrong word, which force would be more effective?

So what the heck were we arguing over the last few pages then about? :\

and lastly to EVERYONE that is say that Xbows don't have more penetration YES THE BLOODY DO,you can have the best EVERYTHING and still get hit for at least 15 or more damage from the crappiest Xbow in the game from ANYONE! One of the patches SPECIFICALLY SAID THEY BUFFED THAT PART OF THE XBOW,that way they wouldn't be so useless early-late game.

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hopefully not fully just points like this, which was proven false, no?


I still have no problem with anyone's personal reasons and taste to using them, I myself as big of a pro-archer that I am, like to try and make throwing weapon units work, because melee line raining javelins to advancing enemy is just cool. Wish they had more ammo is all.

Topic's bout CKOs so mid-early game is moot point.

If someone wants to see missiles flying around for an hour long battle without any micro, then I guess that's fine. Weird but fine, do you leave your other units doing whatever they were doing at the start of battle? I'd say efficient use of cavalry in a big battle requires more micro than stop/fire for archers.


But I'm glad we got this far so madvader linked the code snippet, it's good stuff to know.

Well and bows obviously benefit from Power Draw to damage bonus while crossbows have nothing similar.

Yea, so I hate reading code, but from what little I understand, xbow gets penalized more in rain, bow has more bonuses to dmg and nothing says anything about xbow having any more penetration factor.

So I guess that settles it?

The flag that crossbow bolts have extra compared to normal arrows is about having a chance to pierce shields. I've tested this and put the flag active on normal arrows too, it seemed to do what it says on the tin, I could shoot arrows through shields, actually far better than with crossbow, since high end bow with high end skill does more damage.

As far as I understand the weapon stats I dug out with morgh's editor, that's like the only difference. Other than that, high end bows win every category imaginable for a ranged weapon, damage, speed, weapon speed, projectile speed, ammo count even, being able to be used horseback.


If there's something else inside the game code, anyone who knows please do share, but so far what I've seen, found out and witnessed myself, the "extra penetration" bolts have is just that, chance to punch through low level shields at close range. Damage of the shot that does pierce does less damage to the target though, so it's unlikely to 1 hit the unit behind it (maybe with headshot), so you'll need several hits to kill. Shields crappy enough to be penetrated this fashion are so flimsy that high end troops and PCs with bow will destroy the shield outright in 2-4 arrows anyway.

noosers said:

Less micromanagement once the reinforcements show up.
A EAC´s ammunition lasts well through a full battle, a RR one´s is used up after the first reinforcement wave.

And last but not least, it´s personal taste and preferences. This isn´t a MMRPG - DPS is totally neglectable.

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RRs ammo depends entirely on how much you care to use hold fire/fire at will. Does an arrow quiver inherently have less ammo than a bolt quiver? You know, if you really want, you can get same amount of shots per time period off from RRs than any crossbowmen (lol) if you want, just tell them to hold fire for 1.5s after every volley

Archers only run dry if you let them. Yes, it increases micromanagement, but then also when you have the need, they'll pump out a hell of a lot more dps, if needed. Sometimes it's needed.

I'll never argue on personal taste and pref, especially in a single player game.


khorne, a bow shot on the hands of the skilled archer will do more damage than a crossbow bolt in the hands of a skilled crossbowman. Because Power Draw. Since original M&B. Even the betas. Hell maybe alfas, I didn't play those, I started in beta zero point something something. Long time ago anyway.

You guys are trying too hard to make crossbows work.

Fight starts, order hold fire. Wait until the enemy wave is within a good shot distance or in a terrain feature that aids your archers (choke point, river, slight uphill that slows them) and tell them to open fire. Watch **** melt. Once you receive information about their next wave, order hold fire, let them regroup/charge again while you kill the stragglers and rince repeat.

You don't have to let them fire to the horizon and hope someone pokes their head in the way.

Same deal in sieges. Get your lines in order, open fire, halt once the enemy numbers thin out, wait for the next wave to settle in at their places on the wall, open fire and so on.


It's pressing like 4 buttons every few minutes vs using units who are inferior at the task given, ranged death dealing.

Proper use of hold fire/fire at will fixes your ammo issues.

Aside from that bowmen are superior in every way. Have you witnessed a full on heavy horse charge crumble and die because they faced so fkin many arrows that took out shields, men and the horses before the frontline was reached? Did that happen with crossbows?

Dumbest thing about sally out is that your troops have like 3 arrows with them. Okay, design and mechanics sometimes must go against common sense, but like seriously what the ****? Your archers usually mill about in a siege, holding their bow and EMPTYING THEIR QUIVERS nearly totally and then picking up the arrows when the siege would start for realzies? That doesn't fly for me even in light of design&mechanics. That is just dumb cheese. But oh well, sieging has been really retarded since M&B beta anyway, the whole 1 ladder, no siege equipment, no feint attacks etc. etc.

I mean sure, there's limitations what a game can do, but implementing the dumbest cheese possible to stop players from playing around from the very get-go retarded parts is...

I'd disable sally outs or the ammo penalties if I knew how.

MadVader said:

Here's the last beta patch:
http://www.mediafire.com/?3cvenfla1nn90tr
Just overwrite over 3.6, clean or patched.

New changes:
+ Fixed Native bug with booksellers temporarily disappearing if they were set to be in the same tavern.
+ Fixed unique NPCs spawning freely when they are player's prisoners
+ Spawn secondary patrols actually patrol around the primary spawn and are not simply dropped off along the way
+ Mercs and war parties now join player sieges when he's not a marshal

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i fkin knew i wasn't imagining when they sometimes could simply not be found on the map

You could always get morghs editor and change their unit settings.