Possible solution to balance Khan's Guard?

[Bluko88]

So needless to say the balance, or lack there of, with Khan's Guard has pre-occupied my thoughts on the game quite a bit. I mean between them and Fian Champions it seems pretty pointless to even bother with other units in-game unless you are "roleplaying", don't know any better, or are trying to challenge/restrict yourself.

Honestly I'm appalled Khan's Guard were allowed into release version of the game as is. I thought for sure TW would simply nerf them by giving them all sabers for melee weapons and be done with it. Anyone who spends 20 minutes experimenting with them in Custom Battles can quickly find out how absurd they are, especially under player control. And this isn't like some combination of Perks that makes them OP, they are literally just that OP.

Now yes you can make the argument via A.I. control they mostly shoot arrows in the Horse Archer formation, but if they survive, they do eventually run out of arrows. And that's where you see how even a few Khan's Guard can really clean house. Look Fians are OP too, but they can be reliably countered by shield infantry and or combined arms. Fians aren't an end all be all unit, they do have some weaknesses (though their two-handed skill should be nerfed a bit). Khan's Guard are good at everything. They are best horse archer, best melee cavalry, very good foot archer, and a heavily armored shock troop that can beat just about any infantry on foot. Literally their only weakness is the lack of a shield, but this is non-issue since they are already archers!


Look I get it. As Butthead might say, "Glaives are cool" and hey the Mongols basically had the world's largest empire at one point. I don't want to delete Glaives from the game or nerf them into utter uselessness.

But having a Horse Archer/Mounted Shock Troop just doesn't work...


I've tried limiting the number of Glaives, giving Khan's Guard maces, more swords, etc. Ultimately I found the best combo was 50% Sabers, 25% Lance, and 25% Glaive for melee weapons.This makes them potent in melee, but not so much they can defeat other T6 Melee Cavalry. But this isn't ideal either since you are effectively crippling 1 out of 4 Khan's Guard on foot by leaving them with just a lance for melee weapon. Also I don't like RNG playing this much of factor for someone just starting out and the handful of Khan's Guard they'd have mostly using lances (makes it hard to plan how to use them with such wild equipment variance too).


Ultimately I think we (well more TaleWorlds) gotta decide what do we really want the Khuzait Noble Line to be? Do we want it to be the best Horse Archer line in-game (basically already is...) Or do we want it to be some kind of Melee Shock Cavalry? But it's got to be one or the other, not both at the same time. Or does it?

And then it occurred to me (though I believe this has been suggested before) - why not just split the Khuzait Noble Line in two? Doesn't change the ratio of Cavalry overall for Khuzait, just means you'd have slightly more Melee Cavalry and slightly less Horse Archers.

It's very simple, you have a line of very good Horse Archers (but are weak in melee). And then you have a line of what I will call "Shock Cavalry" that are very good in melee, but have no shield, no lance, and relatively low armor. A very strong unit, but hardly untouchable like current Khan's Guard.

Honestly only tricky part here is deciding whether Khan line should have two sets of arrows or polearm for better melee performance.

Spoiler: Shock Cavalry Line

Spoiler: Archer Line Bow Focus

Spoiler: Archer Line Melee Focus

 

[Apocal]

Ultimately I think we (well more TaleWorlds) gotta decide what do we really want the Khuzait Noble Line to be? Do we want it to be the best Horse Archer line in-game (basically already is...) Or do we want it to be some kind of Melee Shock Cavalry? But it's got to be one or the other, not both at the same time. Or does it?

The dev in charge of troops said that the Khuzait line wasn't really up for any big changes back in 2020. I'll see if I can track down the post but that's why they haven't done anything except change around helmet and quiver amount on the Khan's Guard.

 

[anoddhermit]

Right now I think two handers in general are too powerful, and shield infantry are not a counter to fians at all - they will get slaughtered by two handed swords if they reach the fians.

Two handers should be to some extent an ideal flanking weapon or highly effective in open spaces, not something that is pretty much auto-win against sword and board units even when they're in formation.

Both the Fian and Khan's Guard would be extremely powerful without their two handers, but with them they effectively negate all potential counters since they will win against melee that reach them. There's no rock/paper/scissors style balancing, they just kill everything way too easily and quickly.

Noble cav of course have plenty of counters. They also just aren't really that much better at their basic role than T5 Cavalry, while Fians and Khan's Guards are way better than standard T5 archers on top of double as effective melee combatants to a degree no other archers come close to.

 

[Kentucky 『 ＨＥＩＧＵＩ 』 James]

Heavy horse archers in just about every game that includes them are always broken af. They have all the benefits of heavy cavalry with none of the limitations of irl horse archer (i.e. that they couldn't really kill anything on their own).

Short of rebalancing projectiles its just common sense that horse archers shouldn't also be given the the most op melee weapon in the game. Its ludicrous that this is still a problem. They should split high tier khuzait units into light horse archers and light melee cavalry, with the noble chain being heavy melee cavalry. That way you have to rely on all three on the battlefield, just like real Eurasian Nomads.

In my earlier playthroughs i didn't know khans guard were op, and just used normal horse archers and some melee cavalry, and the battles were actually quite engaging. Having to juggle multiple formations instead of just one steamroller adds a lot to the feeling of tactical gameplay, even if you're still just steamrolling.

 

[JunKeteer]

Wish there was a way, that, if their horse fell in battle (%chance), you would have to 're-give' them another one to go back to their 'tier'. So at least there's some form of an attrition aspect - presumably, would think their cavalry would be significantly less armored than a Vlandian Knight/E Cataphract.

 

[Ananda_The_Destroyer]

The AI can neither use or field KG in any useful way so there's nothing to balance. It's just the same dead horse for 2 years.

 

[Earth Dragon]

Glaives and other Swinging Polearms are not, in anyway, reliable and usable the way they use them on horseback. The reason no one is armed with a dagger in this game is because there is no "disarm" or "drop weapon" mechanics. The reason why many Knights used short handled hammers and maces to run down broken rabble was the lower chance of losing their grip on a bad swing.

Not only would wide swinging polearm get dropped after the first swing, there is no way to transfer the energy needed from your lower body to your upper body effectively in a saddle, so it wouldn't do as much damage as it would from the ground.

Long Story short, Khan's Guard should be the class of Horse Archer that fights well on foot as well as act as a horse archer, not be a horse archer that smokes other cavalry when they get tangled up. The issue is the min/maxers and speed runners will ALWAYS fight for them to not get touched so they don't have to re-learn how to play the game

 

[Apocal]

Long Story short, Khan's Guard should be the class of Horse Archer that fights well on foot as well as act as a horse archer, not be a horse archer that smokes other cavalry when they get tangled up. The issue is the min/maxers and speed runners will ALWAYS fight for them to not get touched so they don't have to re-learn how to play the game

There isn't really a difference in how you play the game with KGs vs. without.

It is either the sense of progression or cool factor at having a full T6 party that drives it. The players who manage to amass KGs in numbers worth caring about already have a firm enough grasp of the mechanics to beat the game. There woudn't be anything new they'd need to learn. It would just feel less interesting because it wouldn't be the power fantasy or RP.

Which is why people slag on Druzhniks, in spite of the fact they are not even bad and will endlessly debate between BFCs and KGs.

The real minmaxers and speed runners generally don't bother. Especially the speed runners, lol. There is literally no reason to give a **** what sorta troops you're fielding outside of general categories if you're speed running.

 

[Kentucky 『 ＨＥＩＧＵＩ 』 James]

Glaives and other Swinging Polearms are not, in anyway, reliable and usable the way they use them on horseback.

Cavalry in China, Japan and all across central asia used swinging polearms all the time, it was probably the most common horseback melee weapon in those areas for centuries.

 

[Agroplode]

Asking to nerf troops in singleplayer

Every single time I play M&B, be it Warband or Bannerlord. I have some idea what I want to do. There is always some roleplay aspect to it. Do I play a bandit or do I play a noble? Do I play a mercenary with crappy troops at tier 2 and 3.

Why would I want Khans Guard nerfed? They are perfect for making all Calradia pay tribute, should I choose to play as Khan!

 

[five bucks]

Asking to nerf troops in singleplayer

If having a single Empire Elite Cataphract instantly won the battle for you, would you ask for it to be nerfed? Yes or no?

If yes, why?
I bet you can't answer this question.

 

[HalfMetalJacket]

I still stand by my own little fix. Significantly lighter armour (especially on the legs), lower skills and a sword in addition to their glaive so that they only have a single quiver.

Spoiler: Pretend they have some other vambraces

This makes them still feel like the killers they ought to, but without being able to last long in melee or range. Heavy Lancers and Heavy Horse Archers will do better at their specific tasks.

Also they look nicer this way imo.

Asking to nerf troops in singleplayer

Every single time I play M&B, be it Warband or Bannerlord. I have some idea what I want to do. There is always some roleplay aspect to it. Do I play a bandit or do I play a noble? Do I play a mercenary with crappy troops at tier 2 and 3.

Why would I want Khans Guard nerfed? They are perfect for making all Calradia pay tribute, should I choose to play as Khan!

None of the Khans in history were running around with armies of such troops lol. Anything like that were literally the Khan's Guard.

The Mongols and other great Steppe peoples got **** done with so much more than just 'horse archery' or some kind of OP warrior.

 

[Agroplode]

If having a single Empire Elite Cataphract instantly won the battle for you, would you ask for it to be nerfed? Yes or no?

If yes, why?
I bet you can't answer this question.

Yes lets make up absurd stuff.
I understand now, that you want troops from factions that you dont play nerfed. So you can stomp them easily. I bet you cant deny that

 

[HalfMetalJacket]

Yes lets make up absurd stuff.
I understand now, that you want troops from factions that you dont play nerfed. So you can stomp them easily. I bet you cant deny that

I don't know about them but I want to play a faction without having to straight up ignore a troop just to avoid getting an absurd advantage.

In the end though I just don't see the value of sticking to vanilla. Its hopeless and the devs straight up don't care about this anymore.

 

[Agroplode]

I still stand by my own little fix. Significantly lighter armour (especially on the legs), lower skills and a sword in addition to their glaive so that they only have a single quiver.

Spoiler: Pretend they have some other vambraces

This makes them still feel like the killers they ought to, but without being able to last long in melee or range. Heavy Lancers and Heavy Horse Archers will do better at their specific tasks.

Also they look nicer this way imo.


None of the Khans in history were running around with armies of such troops lol. Anything like that were literally the Khan's Guard.

The Mongols and other great Steppe peoples got **** done with so much more than just 'horse archery' or some kind of OP warrior.

I dont care about history. I play Bannerlord to have fun.
Historically steppe riders used lasso rope to catch knights. So do you want them to have a lasso and catch your knights like reindeer or cattle?

 

[mujadaddy]

Historically steppe riders used lasso rope to catch knights. So do you want them to have a lasso and catch your knights like reindeer or cattle?

This actually makes the long glaive a good development choice. I was about to come in here and say, Mrh, just give em a short glaive, but you changed my mind.

Ananda is right, the AI can't abuse them.

 

[Agroplode]

I don't know about them but I want to play a faction without having to straight up ignore a troop just to avoid getting an absurd advantage.

In the end though I just don't see the value of sticking to vanilla. Its hopeless and the devs straight up don't care about this anymore.

I agree but it dont bother me since its sp.

In the end I think the cheesy economy is at fault the most and second the lack of danger. We can make millions and get a full party of nobles, and we can stay neutral, while riding about doing our business. Third I would like to mention all troops should have better armor, I want them to fight it out in 10 min or 20 min battles.

 

[Ichon]

Right now I think two handers in general are too powerful, and shield infantry are not a counter to fians at all - they will get slaughtered by two handed swords if they reach the fians.

Two handers should be to some extent an ideal flanking weapon or highly effective in open spaces, not something that is pretty much auto-win against sword and board units even when they're in formation.

Both the Fian and Khan's Guard would be extremely powerful without their two handers, but with them they effectively negate all potential counters since they will win against melee that reach them. There's no rock/paper/scissors style balancing, they just kill everything way too easily and quickly.

Noble cav of course have plenty of counters. They also just aren't really that much better at their basic role than T5 Cavalry, while Fians and Khan's Guards are way better than standard T5 archers on top of double as effective melee combatants to a degree no other archers come close to.

Yep- two hands are a bit too strong with glaives being straight OP.

Then Fians and Khan's Guard have a potent amount of skills put into their deadliest weapons where many other units get their skilll points a bit spread out. Too spread out like Faris but at least more in most cases. .

 

[Bluko88]

The dev in charge of troops said that the Khuzait line wasn't really up for any big changes back in 2020. I'll see if I can track down the post but that's why they haven't done anything except change around helmet and quiver amount on the Khan's Guard.

I mean I get it, adding new units does break save compatibility.

Though they didn't mind pruning T3 Vlandian Infantry (still present even in Custom Battles LOL). Also they didn't mind changing mercenaries completely, so it's not like troop tree changes are totally off the table. And this is very much a "good cause" too.

Honestly they need to do something. Even if they are really against splitting the Noble Line, at least change the Khuzait Noble Line to a more proper Horse Archer. Or just make them a full on "Shock Cavalry" unit like my alternate branch. I don't see why Khuzait can't have 6 branches of troops like other cultures do though.

Right now I think two handers in general are too powerful, and shield infantry are not a counter to fians at all - they will get slaughtered by two handed swords if they reach the fians.

Mmm pretty sure 150 Legionaries can beat 100 Fian Champions
(150 x 12 denars = 1800 denars daily | 100 x 18 denars = 1800 denars daily)

Spoiler: Indeed they can! (yes this is with vanilla troops, FCs in appropriate loose formation too)

Two handers should be to some extent an ideal flanking weapon or highly effective in open spaces, not something that is pretty much auto-win against sword and board units even when they're in formation.

Both the Fian and Khan's Guard would be extremely powerful without their two handers, but with them they effectively negate all potential counters since they will win against melee that reach them. There's no rock/paper/scissors style balancing, they just kill everything way too easily and quickly.

Yep, Khans Guard would be just fine with Sabers. They would still be best Horse Archers.

Fians I am slightly more sympathetic too, being the only T6 Infantry (well Archer). Honestly if TW just lowered their TwoHanded Skill a bit they really wouldn't be that bad.

I think Two-Handed (Shock) Troops are about right now, given they can actually hit things. They do still gaff a number of their swings hitting other things. Before they were mostly a waste before. It's quite funny how Voulgiers went from one of the worst infantry units, to now possibly one of the best.

The AI can neither use or field KG in any useful way so there's nothing to balance. It's just the same dead horse for 2 years.

The A.I. is pretty simple in this game, it's inability to do things should not be what determines if things are "balanced" or "fair". I've seen the A.I. completely eff up battles where they had the advantage in every way - simply because the A.I. can't pick a piece of ground to defend. (Why "serve as a soldier" is even remotely popular is beyond me.) And this is only applicable to battles the player participates in anyways, so it is very much an issue. Maybe more so because it gives the player such a tremendous advantage. Khan's Guard definitely are not weighted for their true potential in auto-resolve.

I shall whine on the beaches, I shall whine on the landing grounds, I shall whine in the fields and in the streets, I shall whine in the hills. I shall never stop whining! Even if, which I do not believe for a moment, Bannerlord is a truly 100% finished game.

(hate "at" but Duh does a fair bit of posting, so I will pick on him)
@Duh_TaleWorlds

If we beat the dead horse enough, I'm sure we can achieve a Fusion reaction...


After some more testing last evening it looks like I will need to lower armor on "Shock Cavalry" line. Also while the Long Glaive is great on open battlefields, A.I. has a hard time using it in siege scenes. Very interesting that my Khan's Guard get smoked by Asud Guard in open battlefield, but this does a total 180 in sieges. Whether attacking or defending (even in greater numbers like 2:1) Asud Guard got no chance against Khan's Guard in a siege.

 

[Apocal]

Though they didn't mind pruning T3 Vlandian Infantry (still present even in Custom Battles LOL). Also they didn't mind changing mercenaries completely, so it's not like troop tree changes are totally off the table. And this is very much a "good cause" too.

He was referring to Khuzaits specifically.