Feminism

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This often does lead to internal turmoil which can often seem apocalyptic at times, but it also creates the fastest economic growth in human history. The average wage in China is higher than anything I could hope for in London, the cost of living is far lower, and extreme poverty has been almost completely eradicated.
This is only "true" for the big cities. People in rural areas are still in extreme poverty. Or people who come from rural areas to work in the big cities. Besides, there's a lot going on with it that I can't really put together because I just woke up. Lowered standard for what is considered poverty, IP thefts, cheap labor, etc. To be completely honest I'm not an economist so I can't talk about these with confidence, but the point here is that the Chinese people are on such economic pressure that some of their youths have completely given up on the future. I don't think good economic numbers justify having such social condition.

That is actually what most Islamic feminists start from, and it's not got them a lot of progress.
Right. You're talking about middle eastern countries when saying this, right? To be completely honest with you, I don't like the middle east. I think that whole area is a mess and their nonsense bleeds into Indonesia. One of our biggest issues, Islamist extremists, come from there. You won't see me defending whatever is going on in the middle east. Their issue is deeply rooted in their application of Islam in general. You refer to this as Islamic fundamentalists I believe. They really need to get that solved before we can talk about other issues like feminism, and forcing a western feminist movement into them is not going to work.

This comes across as you saying that trans people are not normal and not okay human beings.
Only if you see it with a pre-existing prejudice. Your ideological alignment led you to make that jump because I was on the opposing side. What I meant is that they obviously are normal people, and thus completely capable to do what I was suggesting. That's what I meant by it not being that hard. Again, it's such an obvious fact that I didn't feel the need to specify it. I know they're capable of living normally, and some of them already are.

By the way, men and women who are comfortable with the gender they were assigned at birth can and are hated and discriminated against.
Yeah obviously. I don't even know why you even bothered pointing this out.

The only reason why it might be a bit easier for them than it is for trans people is that their differences are more difficult to see if they are trying to hide them.
No, quite the opposite. Gender dysphoria is such a rare condition that the majority of people don't know about it. Meanwhile being male or female is such an obvious, seen-everywhere differences. People learned to accept the difference because it's such a core part of human society. Men live among women throughout the entire human history everywhere. Even cavemen could differentiate between men and women.

This to me is like saying to a man that they should try wearing a skirt or a bra sometimes because their not doing so is making other people uncomfortable.
No. I can't even figure out how you came to that conclusion from what I wrote. I made such clear and simple statements that should just be taken as they are.

If you are referring to the elements that were removed by Monty in your previous comments, those are not a thing. That just does not happen.
I don't understand the refusal on this either. You can even see it everywhere on Twitter. How is it not a thing? Why are you so sure that nowhere in the world, nowhere on the world wide web, that people did those? Well thanks to the mods I can't post proofs of what I meant or even mention them, but go look at what materials they're putting in western education nowadays.

Where? How? You are saying (or at least come across as saying) that people should hide who they are to be accepted by other groups that hate them.
No. I never even said the word "hide" or "shut up". I don't know how to make it even clearer. The acceptance happens in so many parts of the world, about so many minority groups, at various periods of time. I'll explain one example in length, as clearly as possible.

Back then in say, Indonesia, people heavily discriminated against different religious groups. For example as a Muslim I grew up with people around me whispering that Christians are bad and stuff. It's literally an "eww Christians" kind of sentiment. However, throughout the years, we have lived next to Christians. Keep in mind that they never preached about anything. Never talked about discrimination or prejudice. They're just there, being our neighbors, and we regularly talked to them. We then learned that hey, turns out Christians aren't bad people. They're just normal people. They don't corrupt our children like we feared. They're just like us. Some are good some are bad. Okay then. No more discriminating against Christians.

That, is common. Swap Christians to Buddhists, black people, Chinese, atheists, whatever. It happens to them too. The reason you don't see this in media is because it's such a peaceful and natural process that's not worth writing about. It just happens. If I swap that with trans people, it would work out the same too. The thing is, when it comes to LGBT, it's not done like that. People come in waving flags and calling others bigots. Why? Because people are impatient these days. They want fast results. They don't want to let it marinate for years like in the example I gave. They want people to accept LGBT now, and it's such a profitable thing to write about. Outrage and drama are interesting. Even in our times of peace we watch conflicts (usually fantasy) to keep ourselves entertained.

There is actual, proper research and effective treatments. The treatment is gender affirming care.
The "gender affirming care" I'm thinking of doesn't seem effective, that's the thing. Continues with below:

I am also unclear on what you mean when you talk about "what's truly important". What is truly important in life? Gender dysphoria is associated to depression and high suicide rates if it is not treated appropriately.
That depression and high suicide rate is among what I meant by "what's truly important". I mean, it's still pretty high now isn't it? Even with people who take the surgery. That's why I said the treatment doesn't seem effective, so there must be other factors. I've done this kind of debates a lot, and oftentimes I found that people get really upset when I refer to gender dysphoria as a disease or mental help problem. That's why I used the word "condition" in this thread. It's essentially a mental help problem, but keep in mind that it's okay to be sick. You don't have to be perfect, as nobody is, and having certain sickness doesn't justify discrimination against you.

Discussions usually stop here thanks to the outrage, but if I were allowed to go even further, I'd bring up how trans identity doesn't only root from gender dysphoria or genetics. For example, if parents abuse their son because they wanted a daughter, that son can wound up as a transgender later in life. There have been cases of this. It's clearly not okay (abuse to this degree), but many people would wrongly diagnose this condition as gender dysphoria.

I don't see this aggressiveness. Again, what are you talking about specifically?
There's nothing more I can say than look it up. There's so much outrage around this movement and for some reason you and the others haven't seen it. I'm already limited in my speech here, and that itself is a form of aggression, minor as it may be.

I would however like to point out that German society did not change as much as you think, because Hitler had a lot of support from Germans. They kind of liked what he was doing, just like Italians liked what Mussolini did. Both rode to power on sentiments that were already there. And I really did not leave the holocaust period out, I am just saying that it failed to generate the change that they were looking for.
I think this boils down to what each of us meant by "changing". Standard of measurement kind of thing. I'd say millions of Jews getting killed is a social change, but you seem to only refer to more long-lasting and drastic changes as a real change.

"Us vs them" is exactly the problem, so I am glad we agree on that at least. Again, I don't see where you see the ideological part in LGBT people wanting to live their life in peace.
Yeah. On the second part of that, it's not against "LGBT people wanting to live peacefully." As I've pointed out, they should just live peacefully. The LGBT movement is not really pushing for that, even though it might be unintentional.

I definitely agree with you that we should all talk more to people from other countries. It's part of why I like this forum. But once more, I don't understand what you are talking about here:
[we really don't like what we see going on in the US around this subject]
DestructoRama is, I am quite sure, fully immersed in an alternative reality echo chamber where she gets constantly told that LGBT people are deep frying children in pizza or some other nonsense.
I wasn't exclusively referring to what DestructoRama mentioned, but she did have a point. She was just too aggressive and rude about it (proving my point once more about aggressiveness). Then again I'm not allowed to talk about the details.
 
I have heard this exact line from practically every western journalist who gets their information (ultimately) from US counterintelligence, and it's just not accurate. The CPC seems to pingpong between different policies almost at random, and to journalists living in western democracies where 2 policies get enacted every 10 years, it can seem like one rushed failure after another.
It's hard not to see the Great Leap Forward and Cultural Revolution as massive failures when they resulted in millions and hundreds of thousands of deaths respectively. Also killing the sparrows and melting down the farm tools for pig iron were both very poorly thought through.
But the CPC is like every other Communist state in history, they have a stage-based ideology that demands they work out what the next stage of economic development is and then try to force their way through it, or intentionally induce its conditions, with deliberate policy. This often does lead to internal turmoil which can often seem apocalyptic at times, but it also creates the fastest economic growth in human history.
Let's look at what's on China's horizon. They have a massively burgeoning elderly population and severe shortage of women, water supply issues, severe entrenched government corruption which means every multi story building turns to **** in a decade, and an economy centered around housing which is constantly teetering on the brink of collapse (see Evergrande). None of this is good.

Sure, they have had massively fast economic growth (from adopting capitalist economic elements - not exactly a rousing argument for communism/socialism). But this was mainly built upon the short-term sugar high of a massive young generation, being paid low wages, who had few elders to support (because Mao's famines or supporters killed them all) and few children to support (because you weren't allowed to have more than 1) and loads of foreign investors.

Now the effects of that are beginning to catch up with China, with a lack of youth to replace the aging '70s generation, and a whole lot of young men with nobody to marry. And what youth there are also want to work sensible hours, have proper wages, and have 2 kids (but they can't afford to because of housing cost), and it's not looking like some kind of masterful long-term planning anymore.

Authoritarian states are great at making wide-ranging snap policy decisions that affect billions of people. However, due to a lack of free internal criticism, they are not as good at considering whether these far-reaching policies are actually a good idea. That's why democracies take so long to do anything, they have to make sure it won't cause a catastrophe first.
The average wage in China is higher than anything I could hope for in London, the cost of living is far lower,
The average wage in China is about 3x lower than the average wage of most developed countries, which is not compensated for by the 2x lower cost of living. The standard of everything you buy and live in and the conditions in which you work are also worse.

"Work by 996, sick in ICU" ring a bell?
and extreme poverty has been almost completely eradicated.
You can say this for most countries of China's wealth.
Basically the CPC are accelerationists.
Small sample size, but my sole experience talking to an accelerationist once has convinced me that they are a meme with an actual aversion to coherent ideologies.
 
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You can even see it everywhere on Twitter.
Honestly this is the problem. You can see a lot of things on Twitter. Very few of them are real.

Here's a very scientific explanation of what is happening to you, and why you think there's an LGBT cult doing who knows what.



And for the record, sure, there's probably a transgender person that did something horrible at some point. I am sure there's more than one. I can also about guarantee that everything you are seeing on your feed on Twitter is either completely fake or a distorted version of what actually happened. If you want feel free to send any "proof" to my private messages, I would be happy to show you that they are not as much proof as you think they are. Again, as long as you are open to that, otherwise it's kind of a waste of everyone's time.

That doesn't equate to an evil LGBT movement bent on world domination. That is not a thing. It is however how antisemitism paints Jews, so make of that what you will (should they also have tried to be "normal" people?).
 
If you want feel free to send any "proof" to my private messages, I would be happy to show you that they are not as much proof as you think they are. Again, as long as you are open to that, otherwise it's kind of a waste of everyone's time.
I appreciate the gesture. I might follow up on that in the near future. Currently swamped with research and work at the moment. Probably around the weekends. I should set the following first by the way:

That doesn't equate to an evil LGBT movement bent on world domination. That is not a thing. It is however how antisemitism paints Jews, so make of that what you will (should they also have tried to be "normal" people?).
I never said or suggested the LGBT movement is bent on world domination. I just said they're aggressively spreading their lifestyle, which people here disagree with. I think it's important for me to clarify that what I think as "bad" will be different from your perspective. For example, we think drinking alcohol is bad, but it's normal in the west, but it's not like we think it's bad purely from a religious perspective. We have legitimate reasons to think so. I will write details on this once we get to PM, giving you a perspective that's common in where I live, and probably even extends to the rest of Asia to some degree.

Also Jews are normal people. They've lived normally for thousands of years. I've never heard Jews throwing aggressive protests in an attempt to be accepted by society. Not like I've lived alongside Jews tho. I just assume Jews are the same as the religion groups I do have experience with.
 
Also Jews are normal people. They've lived normally for thousands of years. I've never heard Jews throwing aggressive protests in an attempt to be accepted by society. Not like I've lived alongside Jews tho. I just assume Jews are the same as the religion groups I do have experience with.
There used to be a time when the consensus among the majority was that Jews were not normal people......
 
There used to be a time when the consensus among the majority was that Jews were not normal people......
We have our own blindspots, which future generations will ridicule. In hindsight, it is easy to dismiss the "science" of physiognomy, where European bias equated African features with subservience or Jewish features with meanness, but which of our unquestioned assumptions will stand the test of time? We are of our time and equally flawed.
 
Also Jews are normal people. They've lived normally for thousands of years. I've never heard Jews throwing aggressive protests in an attempt to be accepted by society.
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I was referring to how Jews for centuries many places have been persecuted and had to keep a very low profile.
If they protested they died. They also see themselves as a 'chosen people' and have little interest in spreading their views.
I'm speaking broadly here. The point is, it's a very poor comparison.
 
Also Jews are normal people. They've lived normally for thousands of years. I've never heard Jews throwing aggressive protests in an attempt to be accepted by society. Not like I've lived alongside Jews tho. I just assume Jews are the same as the religion groups I do have experience with.
So why have they been (and honestly still are, antisemitism just got more sneaky) hated?

Also you talk about doing research, what do you mean by that?
 
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Alright. Fair enough. I've never paid attention to Jewish history, so I didn't know the scale of persecution was that big.

So why have they been (and honestly still are, antisemitism just got more sneaky) hated?
You tell me. I've never lived amongst them. I've only met Jews online and they're not religious or care about their Jewish heritage. I just assume they're like other people.

Also you talk about doing research, what do you mean by that?
Academic research. Completely unrelated to this.
 
Alright. Fair enough. I've never paid attention to Jewish history, so I didn't know the scale of persecution was that big.


You tell me. I've never lived amongst them. I've only met Jews online and they're not religious or care about their Jewish heritage. I just assume they're like other people.


Academic research. Completely unrelated to this.
What kind of academic research? I am actually curious 🧐

And as far as the Jews go, my point is that I actually agree with you, they were "normal" people who happened to get hated because that's how humans do. My point is that humans hate whoever is different from them until they start understanding them and forging relationships with them. That's exactly what is happening with the LGBT community.

I guess the question is what is your definition of being normal. That's probably where we're talking past each other (and it's probably not aided by the fact that neither one of us I think is a native speaker).
 
What kind of academic research? I am actually curious 🧐
A research on recommendation systems. Something like the algorithm on YouTube. I'm trying to help solve several problems this field is currently facing. Well, solve is a big word. This specific field has been plagued with the same problems since its birth. We're just trying to mitigate them.

until they start understanding them and forging relationships with them.
And you won't reach an understanding if you dismiss people who disagree with you as uneducated bigots, and by acting in an unpleasant manner. That's my whole point.

I guess the question is what is your definition of being normal.
That's rather difficult to describe briefly. What is considered normal varies depending on place and time, but there are certain universal norms that form naturally and stand the test of time, and you can use those as a standard to define what is universally normal. That's why I think it's important to let things play out naturally. Things that are legitimately good will pass the test of time, while those that aren't will not. If a certain lifestyle allows you to live long enough to produce an offspring, then you've passed nature's most basic test. Your lifestyle is worth passing down to the next generation. At the very least it works. And I'm not mentioning reproduction to jab at LGBT people. I mentioned it simply because it's literally what keeps our species going. I know many people in the modern world don't want to reproduce, but I think that's an absolutely wrong way to live. If everyone follows that lifestyle, humanity is literally doomed.
 
Also, the reason there are LGBT protests and suchlike today is because today we live in a society where it is relatively safe to do so. In the West. Most places. The Jews aren't that marginalised anymore - there's still anti-semitism, but it's no longer systemic - so the need to protest isn't really there. And whenever there is anti-semitism, public opinion is typically squarely on the Jewish side. It's a wee bit different for the American black community, and for the LGBT community.
 
If a certain lifestyle allows you to live long enough to produce an offspring, then you've passed nature's most basic test. Your lifestyle is worth passing down to the next generation.
This reads like you think homosexuality & transexuality are recent developments in human society, or that once a subculture has passed the post they're free from persecution in perpetuity. There are a few historical examples of people choosing to live as the opposite sex, and even some which aren't colored by the power disparity between men & women in societies at those times (i.e. women passing as men to get more rights & privileges). There are also several cases where artists, scientists, authors, etc. had records of their works destroyed or rewritten because of controversey over their sex. There was similar persecution against homosexuals in many societies historically, but not at all times in all cultures.

An obvious example of how attitudes can change would be Greece, which originally had a socially accepted level of open homoeroticism which traditionally drew the line at penetrative sex. Because of the advent of Christianity and the prominence of the Orthodox church in Greece, that changed. It wasn't until the 1950s that Greece began putting laws on the books to offer protections for non-straight sexual activity and identity. This put them well ahead of many other countries, but there was still a period of over a thousand years where non-straight people were persecuted. That said, they still don't have the same rights as heterosexuals in all aspects of life in one of the most sexually progressive nations in the world.

Living life normally is difficult when you are legally prohibited from participating in parts of normal life, like marriage and adoption.
 
This reads like you think homosexuality & transexuality are recent developments in human society, or that once a subculture has passed the post they're free from persecution in perpetuity.
It may read like that, but that wasn't my suggestion. I know homosexuality has existed since ancient times. I also think that it's genetic, at least partly. It's not an absolute no-no tho. A homosexual can adopt children and pass down their lifework, provided that they have the ability to do so. Meaning they can finance it, and have the ability to parent their adopted children. It doesn't pass down their genetics, but it's still an okay in my eyes.

That's why I put emphasis on living normally (work, etc) instead of promoting your homosexuality or gender dysphoria. Because they're not something to be promoted. The queerness, not the people, mind you. Because being a homosexual is detrimental to reproduction, and gender dysphoria is a condition that makes you suffer great stress. You need to promote an attitude that's against persecution, not the queerness. This is why I think the LGBT movement is wrong. It's focusing on the wrong thing.

At the end of the day, people should strive to live their lives in such a way that they can support other lives. Because the reason we're all here is because someone supported ours. We had to be taken care of when we were helpless babies. This is very important.

Living life normally is difficult when you are legally prohibited from participating in parts of normal life, like marriage and adoption.
Yes, because marriage and adoption are so important that a government needs to be very careful about it. This is yet another one of the things I called "what's truly important." People should work on figuring out whether LGBT people are truly capable of holding a family together and take care of children properly. You wouldn't want orphans to be adopted by people who can't take care of them. Before you jump on my neck, I'll mention once again that I think they can do it, as long as they're not obsessed with their gender identity or LGBT ideology. It's just hard to convince people of this when the LGBT movement is acting the way it is now. Yeah sure it might be a minority, but it's a really loud one, and this loudness contributes to a bad image.

Yes, there are also straight people who are absolute imbeciles and will drop a baby for TikTok fame, but it's not within the scope of this discussion.
 
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