Patch Notes e1.7.2

[Ananda_The_Destroyer]

TW can't state they implemented or added a mod to their game is for balancing reasons.

> balancing reasons
>balancing
Bannerlord....balancing... ?

The companion clans was 100% isnpired by a mod that i can't recall the name of, but it allowed the player to not only create clans from the companions but even kingdoms, TW made their own balanced version and that's what we have now.

You can make companions into vassals in warband.

The patch that improved ladders casually was delivered just a few weeks after the Sige Tower fix mod on Nexus become public.

Oh do ladders and siege towers work better now? ?? I mean I've cleared the map over and over and they still ****ed up all the time, but you say so, so I guess they actually were fixed and the mods inspired TW to fix them, even though it's been on their known issue list and "always improving' section of plans forever and ever. Just needed that mods to nudge the, to fix them, and also they fixed them.??????

let's pick a mod like Improved Garrisons, very popular especially for the recruitment and villages defensive feature but quite an unbalanced one.
TW gave us the option of having an auto recruitment feature instead, that recruits from the town in a balanced way.

Did the mod make your garrisons throw out your troops and keep recruiting if you set the limit? Or was that an original twist on the established formula?

Make of that what you think but those features where clearly mods before TW just balanced them out and added them to the base game
anyone who knew about these mods can see the correlations between the features and the mods they come from.

I think there is a more likely correlation.....

 

[LyonExodus]

i answered your question. there is nothing else to say. if the implementations aren't working well that's not the point of the discussion in the first place.

You can make companions into vassals in warband.

stick to the discussion. if we want to talk about Warband what about we talk about how simple sieges were in that game. oh yeah they worked but hey all you need is 1 ladder right? This in not Warband. Stick to the discussion.


Stating mods don't inspire or help the devs adding features to an EA game is quite simply impossible. even stuff that was in Warband didn't exist in Bannerlord because despite the games being similar Bannerlord is a completely new build that requires new coding, copy and pasting oftentimes doesn't work. mod creators help TW get faster at developing, balancing and addressing new or missing features even the simple ones.

I don't get the reason of why you can't agree on such a simple and factual truth ( outside of trolling ). instead using clown emojis to mock like you are a master developer yourself.

stop changing subjects and sticking to the discussion in a mature way would be appreciated. I don't like wasting my time

 

[Ananda_The_Destroyer]

Stating mods don't inspire or help the devs adding features to an EA game is quite simply impossible. even stuff that was in Warband didn't exist in Bannerlord because despite the games being similar Bannerlord is a completely new build that requires new coding, copy and pasting oftentimes doesn't work. mod creators help TW get faster at developing, balancing and addressing new or missing features even the simple ones.

So are you implying that TW 1 could not conceive these changes on their own? 2 were not influenced in tandem with modders by players asking for and describing these changes/features? 3 that because they could not copy paste code for a feature from warband they somehow forgot it existed? 4 that somehow the code of the mods helped TW make the updates (even though the updates always break the mod because it's different code), or that by some other means TW gained knowledge of how to make updates from the mods and not through their own processes?

I don't get the reason of why you can't agree on such a simple and factual truth

Because I think you are wrong.

stop changing subjects and sticking to the discussion in a mature way would be appreciated

I don't want to be appreciated ? ?

Stick to the discussion

If you could control people on the internet you could rule the world.

 

[LyonExodus]

i am going to answer some of your points with my opinion you decide if they make sense or not:

TW 1 could not conceive these changes on their own

Time and resources for feature that were present in older games. and even the best artists can get inspired by someone else work. So yeah. sometimes you need an outside prospective to reach certain conclusions. sometimes you find the answer in the house other times you got to look out of the window

2 were not influenced in tandem with modders by players asking for and describing these changes/features?

This doesn't make the addition of features inspired by mods any less real. Indeed players can suggest or direct devs to certain things they want to be in the game. An existing mod in this scenario will speed up the implementation process even if said mod is not copied.
Ladders may not be perfect now but they work better than ever and i honestly have only seen my guys getting stuck once by my horse. And as we discussed before that change came weeks after the mod on nexus. Already proving my point right.

3 that because they could not copy paste code for a feature from warband they somehow forgot it existed?

See response to point 1. Time and Resources are a factor. you can't work on everything at the same time especially when the foundation still needs to be refined. It's close to be completed if you ask me and that's why they are getting bolder with adding features lately.

4 that somehow the code of the mods helped TW make the updates (even though the updates always break the mod because it's different code), or that by some other means TW gained knowledge of how to make updates from the mods and not through their own processes?

It's not about TW it's quite literally about any EA game that is open to modders. The code is a great starting point if you want to implement something similar in your game. That' all it is. it's like having a booster in a race.

Mods keep breaking because modders don't know beforehand what parts of the code TW is going to change. the most simple mods can still work , most times , even without an update.

In the case TW adds any new feature they will simply update it to the newest build. and that's why the further you get into developing a game the longer it takes for a new patch to come out. Especially if it's the case of a patch adding more than 1 feature to the game.
Coding is fairly interconnected so changing 1 thing might end up braking 3 others, then you fix the 3 and end up with an additional 4 broken and so on.
long story short, developing is not simple and features require resources ( hours and devs )

 

[MostBlunted]

Claimants, banners and sally out was delayed until infinity, so what will we get with the next patch?

 

[Gricken]

very weird logic you got there but ok

Not really. Its possible to spend thousands of hours faffing about in a game, just like its possible to spend a dozen hours looking deeply into things.

 

[Mad Vader]

i am going to answer some of your points with my opinion you decide if they make sense or not:

This is a great non-threatening way to express controversial opinions. Please stop this and fight like a man.

Time and resources for feature that were present in older games. and even the best artists can get inspired by someone else work. So yeah. sometimes you need an outside prospective to reach certain conclusions. sometimes you find the answer in the house other times you got to look out of the window

The problem is that Taleworlds' staff are ignorant of mods and their popularity. They don't even play their game. They are highly resistant to outside ideas and mostly do what they thought of themselves, however inferior it may be compared to player suggestions about game design.

See response to point 1. Time and Resources are a factor. you can't work on everything at the same time especially when the foundation still needs to be refined. It's close to be completed if you ask me and that's why they are getting bolder with adding features lately.

Time and resources should not be a factor when your team is already 30+ strong and you just got several hundreds of millions (USD) through EA sales, so you could contract anyone you want, if need be.
There are no excuses for the glacial rate of development unbecoming for a pro dev outfit.

 

[Maximum997]

See response to point 1. Time and Resources are a factor. you can't work on everything at the same time especially when the foundation still needs to be refined. It's close to be completed if you ask me and that's why they are getting bolder with adding features lately.

True. But they chose to spend some of that time on console port.

 

[Spinozart1]

This is a great non-threatening way to express controversial opinions. Please stop this and fight like a man

...or a woman... or in a non-gender way...

 

[ziomek24]

or in a non-gender way...

wtf

 

[JunKeteer]

yeah that's not the point. i don't like self promoting of any kind. if by this time you don't know me then i don't care about it. and also i don't remember addressing you.

You are posting on a public forum, anyone can address you or take it as being addressed to them; take it to DMs otherwise.
My only issue is the perceived 'haughty' tone of asking us to search your nickname to prove you know more about this game than others, therefore your opinion is more important. I'm not saying you don't know a lot of this game, but even if you have +4K hours or post vids, doesn't mean your opinions are inherently more 'pertinent' than someone playing only 10 hours solely based on that.

my experience on this game states TW isn't the predatory case. they would have given up by know and just released the game if that was to be the case.
instead they are still willing to update and not take the easy way out and leave the game to modders which i respect

We will have to see the end result once the final game is release; proof of the pudding is in the eating.

 

[LyonExodus]

My only issue is the perceived 'haughty' tone of asking us to search your nickname to prove you know more about this game than others,

First i never stated i know more than others. that was your perception.
Second i was replaying to a person ( not you or anyone else ) addressing me personally ( about how long i have followed the game for ). That implies anyone else is not involved. imagine being in a public place and you interrupt 2 people having a conversation to state your opinion. you have the right to state your opinion but it's something the 2 people didn't ask. I would find that to be quite rude.

but even if you have +4K hours or post vids, doesn't mean your opinions are inherently more 'pertinent' than someone playing only 10 hours solely based on that.

Never stated that in this post for sure. My first replay was given to inform and answer WHIT FACTS to a "question". i never claimed that i know more than the person i addressed in the first place or the one i was replaying to or that my opinion is more valuable. it was only the best way to prove for how long i have been following the game and i know no better way than using factual data to prove such a thing.

And honestly speaking 10 hours wouldn't even be enough to make a guide about all the features and mechanics of this game. If you said something like 500 i would have taken that more seriously. you can learn a lot of this game by that point, maybe not being excellent but knowledgeable yes.
This all conversation is flying way over your head. I know first hand writing isn't the best way to comunicate but you are assuming things the writer never intended.

Not really. Its possible to spend thousands of hours faffing about in a game, just like its possible to spend a dozen hours looking deeply into things.

10 Hours in a game like this is not going to teach you much. just to think it takes 18 hours to get to a clan tier high enough to start your own kingdom is all you need to know. There are simply too many features that that timestamp can't realistically let you experience, let alone getting knowledgeable. Bannerlord is one of the toughest learning experiences you can encounter as a new player.

But they chose to spend some of that time on console port.

So what? Console gamers should't enjoy the game in your opinion? You know how many people ask me if the game is on consoles yet? plenty. That proves there is a market and people that want to experience the game. Also not to be a douche or anything but oftentimes game ports are done by dedicated studios so it's unsure if TW is dedicating even one of their devs to actually work on the porting.

for a pro dev outfit.

as far as i can tell TW seems more on the indie side of things than professional. They have no deadlines to care about and can take the time they need. In my opinion this makes for a great workplace but not the most productive one.
the problem in games is not how many devs you got but the opportunity cost of implementation: so the time it takes.
Long story short: Coding is complex. especially when you do it in a sloppy way the first time. ( It's no secret Bannerlord code is not the greatest to be ever made )

The problem is that Taleworlds' staff are ignorant of mods and their popularity. They don't even play their game. They are highly resistant to outside ideas and mostly do what they thought of themselves, however inferior it may be compared to player suggestions about game design.

i don't agree with that. Not being vocal doesn't mean disregarding. TW, more than likely, knows better than us what players want but also they stick to what they want the game to be so they have to find the right balance on that regard. Also opportunity cost once again is a factor. i am sure some great futures are just waiting to be announced but it's not the right time yet.

Some of the futures added or some of the changes happened because of the community suggested them so we know they listen. Some want them to listen more but in my opinion they aren't doing a bad job on that side.

On the "they don't play their own game" we have seen countless posts from Community menagers and Devs stating they don't like some of the features themselves or that they would like to see some changing. Once again that's something private we have no idea about but it's unlikely to think they don't play their game when a large majority of the team develops it on a daily basis.
A cook might work in a restaurant, eat their food every day and yet never go there for a dinner. doesn't mean he doesn't know what's good or bad about the food. Does it?

If they didn't play in their free time i wouldn't blame them for wanting to spend their time away from their work. people have families and loved ones, hobbies and so on. Devs are people too, they are far from perfect but also far from the worst teams i have seen.

I have played some games where patches came once an year, no dev interaction with players and yet the patches were brilliant and worth the wait.

 

[Mad Vader]

as far as i can tell TW seems more on the indie side of things than professional. They have no deadlines to care about and can take the time they need. In my opinion this makes for a great workplace but not the most productive one.
the problem in games is not how many devs you got but the opportunity cost of implementation: so the time it takes.
Long story short: Coding is complex. especially when you do it in a sloppy way the first time. ( It's no secret Bannerlord code is not the greatest to be ever made )

A 100+ staff company has no business being "indie". Also their professional organization that is hinted at QA processess that need to be followed, means they don't see themselves as indie too. They are supposed to be a pro dev team, not several friends improvising.
They had two previous releases of the SAME game and should be the industry leader in making Mount and Blade type of games (at least they know a lot about engines made for mass combat performance). There's no excuse for "sloppy code first time".
The "sloppy code" was allegedly added by letting inexperienced interns work on production code without code reviews and subsequent fixes.

i don't agree with that. Not being vocal doesn't mean disregarding. TW, more than likely, knows better than us what players want but also they stick to what they want the game to be so they have to find the right balance on that regard. Also opportunity cost once again is a factor. i am sure some great futures are just waiting to be announced but it's not the right time yet.

When modders (=one man) need a week or two to implement features wanted by the players, this argument falls apart.

Some of the futures added or some of the changes happened because of the community suggested them so we know they listen. Some want them to listen more but in my opinion they aren't doing a bad job on that side.

That didn't really happen did it? Except in some minor ways like tweaks. Where are the universally requested feasts? There will be none. Ask yourself why is this.

On the "they don't play their own game" we have seen countless posts from Community menagers and Devs stating they don't like some of the features themselves or that they would like to see some changing. Once again that's something private we have no idea about but it's unlikely to think they don't play their game when a large majority of the team develops it on a daily basis.
A cook might work in a restaurant, eat their food every day and yet never go there for a dinner. doesn't mean he doesn't know what's good or bad about the food. Does it?

If they didn't play in their free time i wouldn't blame them for wanting to spend their time away from their work. people have families and loved ones, hobbies and so on. Devs are people too, they are far from perfect but also far from the worst teams i have seen.

Devs DON'T play their own games as a rule, they playtest a particular feature. This is work for them, not fun. If they are cooks they would throw up from eating their own food, and would rather eat food cooked by others.
The only person that showed evidence he played the game is Dejan the CM and he has very limited influence on design decisions. The rest need to be told about existence and popularity of mods, or they wouldn't know, because they never had a reason to look for them - because they don't PLAY the game for FUN.
While they don't know much about how the game PLAYS, like what is fun and how much and when, they do have preconcieved notions about how it SHOULD be designed borne out of nothing else than groupthink and what the main designers decided, years ago. They are out of touch with the current game.

This is normal and that's why less obstinate devs actually listen to the player community during EA, to find out how to improve their game and get feedback which game design parts were successful and which failed. This is precisely what TW is consistently NOT doing, but it should.

 

[LyonExodus]

A 100+ staff company has no business being "indie"

Let me explain by using Google and definitions:
Definition for Indie Developer
"An indie developer is an individual or small group that is not owned by another company that makes games,"

Is Talewarolds owned by another company?
TaleWorlds Entertainment is an independent Turkish video game developer and publisher located in Ankara, Turkey, founded in 2005. TaleWorlds is an official brand of İkisoft Software Company and have been developing PC games under the brand "TaleWorlds Entertainment" since 2005.

Taleworld is an Independent studio as it's not owned by another company that makes games

100 people in todays market is not many as that incorporates all workers, meaning that maybe 20% of that number actually works on the game code.
talking about the process i don't think it matter all that much, even smaller game developers often follow rigorous testings. that is a matter of prefessionality but doesn't imply if the studio is independent or not.

The world Indie nowdays is mostly used to refer to very small groups because the average sized one like TW are oftentimes partially owned by another game company

objections?

 

[Mad Vader]

Now you are getting stuck on a formality and avoiding the main issues.
And of course no one assumes that a 100+ game company is "indie" because indie=independent. It has actually a much more specific meaning: a company of one or several individuals without a big budget. This was the case when TW was making Warband, but it's no longer true for years on any of the points, when they raked in the Warband revenues and grew the company.
The dev team was reported to be 25-30 strong, which is a nice middling number and, again, not "indie".

 

[LyonExodus]

Okey let's go back to the first iteration

as far as i can tell TW seems more on the indie side of things than professional.

Now this isn't worded in the best way but TW has way more in common with an independent developer than a non independent one.

Also on the revenue side i don't agree. Bannerlord is an EA title after all.
EA titles are most often released to help financing the project.

If TW was hired by company X to make Bannerlord the game wouldn't need an EA but instead company X would have given TW founds and a deadline to finish the game.
TW being professional doesn't make the studio any less independent. They finance themselves, they have their own agenda and are not pressured by external deadlines. Those are all traits more common with an independent developer than a non independent one.

They are in the limbo between a triple A company and an indie studio.

In my eyes the best way to define TW is an Independent publisher , a rare thing in this market.

 

[Gricken]

Okey let's go back to the first iteration

Now this isn't worded in the best way but TW has way more in common with an independent developer than a non independent one.

Also on the revenue side i don't agree. Bannerlord is an EA title after all.
EA titles are most often released to help financing the project.

If TW was hired by company X to make Bannerlord the game wouldn't need an EA but instead company X would have given TW founds and a deadline to finish the game.
TW being professional doesn't make the studio any less independent. They finance themselves, they have their own agenda and are not pressured by external deadlines. Those are all traits more common with an independent developer than a non independent one.

They are in the limbo between a triple A company and an indie studio.

In my eyes the best way to define TW is an Independent publisher , a rare thing in this market.

Stop equivocating. You know exactly what people mean when the term "indie dev" is used. The argument being made is that a development team this large and with this many resources can not use the excuse of being an independent developer for a lack of progress.

 

[NPC99]

Where are the universally requested feasts? There will be none. Ask yourself why is this.

I presumed it was because I didn't like or want them.

 

[LyonExodus]

he argument being made is that a development team this large and with this many resources can not use the excuse of being an independent developer for a lack of progress.

i assume you are referring to this post of mine in which i do not try to excuse the lack of productivity. have a read again.

as far as i can tell TW seems more on the indie side of things than professional. They have no deadlines to care about and can take the time they need. In my opinion this makes for a great workplace but not the most productive one.

it's very clear to me that i say "not the most productive".
i also seem to state "as far as i can tell" and "in my opinion" a few times. meaning that that's what i think because nobody really knows how things go.
The only thing we know is that TW has no deadlines to respect and is self founded which i state is more common in an Independent developer. (TW seems to be fairly independent even with a noticeable size)
but you know what. doesn't seem like anyone cares about reading carefully and responding in a constructive way so let me leave this section.

 

[Gricken]

i assume you are referring to this post of mine in which i do not try to excuse the lack of productivity.

You assume wrong. I'm simply calling out your equivocation of terms. I'm making no argument to the productivity or lack thereof on my own, simply pointing out the argument being made.

but you know what. doesn't seem like anyone cares about reading carefully and responding in a constructive way so let me leave this section.

You've had an incredibly pompous tone for a while now. If you want people to respect your opinions, respect theirs in turn.