Oh quiet, racist
Ukraine Today
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You specifically talked about lefties fascinated by authoritarian repressive regimes. The difference between us is that you're surprised and I'm not.
Some people simply prioritize the vertical axis over the horizontal one.
Yes, I'm one of those Ukrainian jewish neo-nazis who want to live in a liberal society.
"All lefties are Stalins" sounds like a reasonable statement from someone who embraces political pluralism.
Your hate of various minority groups is not liberalism, it's what it is.
Okay then, all is well!
Sounds indicative of you being unable to distinguish between what is racist and what isn't. That tends to correlate with being racist according to recent research (@MadVader knows what I am talking about here).
Also you talk about the distinction between horizontal and vertical axis of politics, and it is a pleasant surprise that you are familiar with that, but then what you are saying makes even less sense. You make it sound like all "lefties" as you call them are aligned towards authoritarianism on the anarchy/authoritarian axis. That is just not true. You are mixing the two things up no?
Also you talk about the distinction between horizontal and vertical axis of politics, and it is a pleasant surprise that you are familiar with that, but then what you are saying makes even less sense. You make it sound like all "lefties" as you call them are aligned towards authoritarianism on the anarchy/authoritarian axis. That is just not true. You are mixing the two things up no?
"Leftists" (or at least people who call themselves that, weaver probably calls them SJWs) in the West are for the most part pro-Ukraine and anti-Putin, which is in keeping with them being in lockstep with the modern liberal establishment on most issues. Calling them broadly "authoritarian" doesn't make sense to me, because insofar as that word means solving problems by state force, nobody is abstractly an authoritarian. Just because someone gets off to policing language on Twitter, doesn't mean they look up to Putin for using force in a completely different context
The kinds of "leftists" I think Weaver is talking about are anti-imperialists and anti-establishmentarians who are reacting against the bombardment of sometimes nonsensical pro-Ukraine hysteria in the west, and they comprise basically everything between Corbyn and Tucker Carlson. But really these people can be anything politically, and in America they're mostly "right wingers". Russia Today platformed a lot of these people, and they ranged from Rightist Christian Socialists like Caleb Mauphin and Chris Hedges, to Slavoj Zizek. The kind of language they use can be found all over the political spectrum, proving that the spectrum isn't really useful in determining proximity of different viewpoints.
To some degree pro-Russia sentiment in the west is a form of rebellion against the establishment, just like the anti-mandate movement or the Trump movement, and there is a lot of overlap.
The kinds of "leftists" I think Weaver is talking about are anti-imperialists and anti-establishmentarians who are reacting against the bombardment of sometimes nonsensical pro-Ukraine hysteria in the west, and they comprise basically everything between Corbyn and Tucker Carlson. But really these people can be anything politically, and in America they're mostly "right wingers". Russia Today platformed a lot of these people, and they ranged from Rightist Christian Socialists like Caleb Mauphin and Chris Hedges, to Slavoj Zizek. The kind of language they use can be found all over the political spectrum, proving that the spectrum isn't really useful in determining proximity of different viewpoints.
To some degree pro-Russia sentiment in the west is a form of rebellion against the establishment, just like the anti-mandate movement or the Trump movement, and there is a lot of overlap.
Let's be clear. I said what I said. That as a citizen of a very distant country, but still showing mild interest in US politics, I did not see any definite proofs that Trump was a racist. I was not provided with any good examples that would force me to change my perception.
Instead, you suggest that according to some recent research I am probably also a racist by association.
What does that say about you?
Well, first of all, I am happy to pleasantly surprise you with the fact that people from third world countries also can access wikipedia.
But no, replying to your post I was talking about the kind of leftists you specifically mentioned. The authoritarian left. I do realize there is more variety to the left flank of the spectrum. But why wouldn't you immediately go for the least charitable interpretation of my words, right?
This is sort of spot-on.
But you guys need to stop treating me like I'm an American. I live in a completely different cultural reality. I don't call people SJW in my day to day life. I may use the term here losely because that is a word from your world. But it is still foreign to me. Just like alt right, btw. I'm not even sure we mean the same thing when we say "liberal" anymore. So it would make sense to learn more about my views on different issues before putting labels on me that can't even fit.
Now back to your musings. I do think calling the left politicians/influencers who would push for governmental and even societal crack-down on people with dissenting opinions authoritarian is justified. I honestly believed they were Putin's regime natural allies, given the exact same tactics they employ. As in dehumanizing people as neo-nazis on a very shaky pretense to destroy them politically or literally (in Putin's case).
The greater was my surprise when they turned out to be the most vocal supporters of Ukraine.
Someone has to riddle me that.
It is not a pleasant surprise that you are familiar with that because you are from Ukraine (which I don't really consider a third world country myself, for what is worth). It is a pleasant surprise because you don't exactly strike me as someone who is interested in a nuanced conversation, and your statement was very much an absolute. Let me quote it just as a reference.
You are clearly saying that people who fall on the left side of the political spectrum are totalitarian. You were not talking about totalitarian left. You were talking about all the left. Your English is excellent, and you are capable of intelligent thought, so I have a hard time ascribing this to anything else but bad faith.
Also if you are capable of using Wikipedia you're also capable of finding plenty of examples of Donald Trump being a racist. Can you guess why I think that? Here's a hint.
en.wikipedia.org
So, again. You know very well what I am talking about. You're just not interested in a good faith conversation. So what is even the point?
You are clearly saying that people who fall on the left side of the political spectrum are totalitarian. You were not talking about totalitarian left. You were talking about all the left. Your English is excellent, and you are capable of intelligent thought, so I have a hard time ascribing this to anything else but bad faith.
Also if you are capable of using Wikipedia you're also capable of finding plenty of examples of Donald Trump being a racist. Can you guess why I think that? Here's a hint.
Racial views of Donald Trump - Wikipedia
So, again. You know very well what I am talking about. You're just not interested in a good faith conversation. So what is even the point?
If we disregard the US specifics, I see the pro-Russia people in Europe as populist hard-left and hard-right.
The hard-leftist are anti-US-imperialists (and overlap with the anti-vaxxers, so, yes, they are anti-establishment fringe) and the hard-rightist are pro-authoritarian, conservative nationalists looking at Putin as a model dictator (Orban is a second choice), although many of them were forced to hide their feelings, seeing Putin as a military threat to the West.
For example, Weaver would have been a Putin admirer if Ukraine had good relations with Russia. Because otherwise SJWs would ruin his life and the white hetero man would go extinct lol.
Same for me, I don't think I've ever used that term when Americans aren't around. It was more a way of narrowing down what you mean by leftist. I'm not even american, but "leftist" can be used to refer to practically anyone nowadays, although I think there is still some use in using the term to refer to a broad kind of Americanised New Left remnant from the 1960s to the present, who I assumed you were talking about.
Because tactics =/= agreement. Just because Hitler and Stalin both came to power in a coup and presided over a state with arbitrary or extrajudicial powers, doesn't mean they have anything else in common, they just happened to use the same means. You are looking at the outcome (calling people neo-nazis) and superficially assuming they come from the exact same mindset, goals, and material conditions. A lot of the pro-Putin (or at least apathetic) people in the west are actually people who might call themselves libertarians. The standard political labels no longer work.
This is why the "libertarianism - authoritarianism" scale is so meaningless to me. They're just ad hoc political tactics, not the basis of actual beliefs.
The real reason I think "leftists" in the west are so pro-ukraine has nothing to do with what's actually going on there. To me it's just an extension of political divisions in the west itself. As I said before, being pro-putin is a form of anti-establishment rebellion in the west, and the flipside of that is that being pro-ukraine is generally the pro-establishment position. This is why there was such a sudden break between the Republican party in America (pro-Ukraine) and so many of their voters (pro-Putin or apathetic). It's also why "leftists", who are for the most part middle class and aligned with the establishment, so quickly went along with the establishment position on Ukraine.
Bear in mind that very few of these people knew a damn thing about Ukraine until this year, especially in the english-speaking west. The suddenness and hysteria of their realignment can only be understood in terms of positions they've already taken in the home country, not the conditions in Ukraine. I think for example, a lot of democrats immediately drew parallels between Trump and Putin, while populists drew parallels between the ukraine crisis and the arab spring or iraq war. This flared up existing passions that come out as pro or anti Putin, while ostensibly having nothing to do with him.
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You're quick to call it bad faith instead of looking for gaps in your understanding.
In former Eastern Bloc, the political compass is quite different, and what's called "left" here is very much authoritarian and collectivist leaning. In a similar way, those countries have no history of colonialism, no ingrained "systemic racism" and similar concepts that dominate such discourse in the west, and so what is considered racism is very different.
We are not talking about some babushka with no access to the internet, but about someone, who like many young(er) people in the world, participates in global forums and belongs to global communities, using good English.
There's little room for cultural differences there (like the word "liberalism" that has a different meaning in the US). "SJW" is not an old Soviet word and the Soviet world disappeared 30 years ago, making way for new political concepts brought by liberal democracies.
I know this as I grew up under communism and it didn't make me an Eastern European racist, anti-communist thug (not aiming at Weaver really), who is merely culturally misunderstood.
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What makes you think that, especially in this discussion, the US understanding of political left is more appropriate than Ukrainian?
Who said anything about the US understanding? I assume European understanding, because Ukraine is supposed to be in Europe and has European neighbors with political lefts.
Social democracy is a very old concept, even taught under communism (as being wrong for compromising, but still).
What makes you think that this is a US based conversation? I am Italian. Also the main reason why I am seeing bad faith is not the Donald Trump thing, it's the fact that he clearly said that all left leaning people are totalitarian, and he is trying to gaslight us into thinking that he said something different. The Trump thing is just another example of it.
He himself started talking about horizontal vs vertical political axes. That means that he understands very well the difference between left/right and anarchy/authoritarian. I don't think they teach that in school in Ukraine (they sure don't in Italy), so clearly he is a worldly person.
By the way, my grandma is familiar with at least some examples of Trump saying and doing racist things. She's 89 and does not speak a lick of English.
US and Western Europe at best. You're not making an effort to understand that not the whole world-not the whole Europe, in fact-doesn't adhere to the same political compass, insult those who see things differently and consider different opinions to be inferior.
So much for argumenting in good faith.
Why don't you explain what exactly is the important difference, instead of repeating "no one understand us, we are special".
Social democracy (i.e. the moderate left) is a concept that's well known in former communist states and there are social-democratic parties in each country.
veever is kil
The political compass is centered somewhat differently here. There's very little room in the "left" before it descends into controlling "nanny state", effectively authoritarian government. And the experience with Soviet control makes people be wary of that.
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