Xandariel
Recruit
Hey there!
Been lurking here for a while, on and off reading the discussions and suggestions. I thought, maybe I'd like to add something as well so here goes nothing I guess.
Just a heads up tho: I have never played or personally experienced warband or any of the previous titles, so some of my feedback might come off as uninformed or weird to some of the veterans here. I have also not been one of the very early adopters. I bought the game relatively recently, as compared to its almost 2 years of life at this point. So I have not experienced earlier iterations of, lets say, the xp system for example. Also, as of today, I am still on 1.6.5. I very much doubt the latter will change much if anything about what I am gonna give my feedback on, but I just wanted to put it out there for full transparency and to avoid confusion.
If I suggest something that previous games like warband did better, by all means, chime in and educate me on how my suggestion is inferior. I'll be quite happy to be enlightened.
I will also try to avoid talking about anything related to balancing, as that is usually always subject to change in a developing game and even more so in an early access title. I might make a few mentions, but will try to keep them to a minimum, as they add nothing of substance imo.
That being said, here goes:
I've played around 200 ish hours of the game at this point. Most of it in the last couple months. Had an absolute blast with the game for most of that time spent on it. Still, the longer I played, the more I noticed that beyond the honestly very solid framework and fun basic game loop, the game is essentially dead.
Many games, especially open world or rpg types, but also strategy and others suffer from a strong early and maybe also mid game and then during the late game, you find yourself incessantly doing the same crap over and over to the point where it no longer feels like a fun game but more like a chore. That is nothing new, but this game essentially takes it to the extreme, to the point where you could hyperbolically say the game as no late game. Let me explain a bit.
What's the point of trading? No, really, what's the point? In most games it serves a single purpose and that is for the player to earn money. It's a valid reason, as many games that aren't shooters or the sports type have an ingame economy for the player to utilize. So what to you trade for in Bannerlord? Well, money, I guess. But really, what is that money used for? Sure, I mean, you buy stuff, yeah. Obviously. In the case of Bannerlord you also pay your troops with money. But then what? Upkeep for troops is laughably small, unless you run a stack of 200 T6 units. In which case you have the military might to take over a town or castle - which in turn alleviates all your money problems, making money pointless again. You might wanna buy equipment. Yeah, gotcha. Then you got all the equipment you want. Plus some extras to change your look every now and again. And even some more extras for your buddies. But, well, again... Then what? Equipment does not break or degrade. You don't have to take care of it. It's a one time purchase and forget about it deal.
Ok, cool. Maybe you want to boost city building. Great, so you've spent money to... earn more money. Cool, I mean that is the basic concept of earning money in any game and I guess real life. But then your city is maxed out, you got 330 in trade, you're making crazy trade deals, running lots of caravans, owning the max amount of workshops, taxing your peasans and... become jeff bezos? Really, making money to make more money, to make more money.... to do what with, exactly? See my problem yet? There is nothing to do with all that wealth. There is no "end game goal" to your money, except making more money. Sure, you might wanna hit 1 million gold. Then maybe you will want to hit 10 million. Some crazy people might even aim for 100 million. But at what point is the amount of money you got gonna be so high that you just go "and now what?"?
This game not only needs more meaningful ways to spend and earn money, it also needs more money sinks built into the basic game loop. Why can't I become a wealthy patron of one of the many kingdoms. Let me fund them and watch them conquer their enemies. Or I will fund everyone, watch the world burn and sweep in when I see my chance. Why not let me have to repair my equipment occasionally, to have a regular money sink after battle? Heck, even things like horses need tending to and fodder, if I wanna become a horse merchant, as seems to be the meta to level trading these days. Be creative. Think of ways to make the player spend their hard earned cash in regular intervals, but without making it overbearing and annoying. And then give the player way to influence the world and spend their money on their own terms on meaningful decisions and in ways that actually matter.
Same goes for crafting. I won't talk about how the random nature of unlocks is an actually atrocious way of handling it. The devs seem to have grasped that themselves if their own statements are to be believed. However, crafting in and of itself is just as hollow as earning money. You screw around a bit until you unlock the parts you want, then you craft your weapons and then.... idk, do crafting writs? How many, until you get bored? And yes, I know, you can make mad cash and all that. See the above part about money, as to why I will ignore that. This feature, by itself, is worthless. It needs to be integrated into the game and properly integrated. If I am a master smith, let nobles hire me to craft a weapon for them - and then let them equip that weapon and maybe use it against me later. Let me equip my troops. The game seems to handle them in a similar way to you and your buddies, as they sport the same equipment slots. It shouldn't be too hard to make that happen. The basic framework is there. Or do you want me to believe that the 160 gold it took to upgrade them was enough gold to by them the late game armor and weapons they're sporting, as opposed to the farming tools they start out with? I mean heck, if you don't wanna invest in smithing, you can always buy their weapons at the local market. Another meaningful money sink, as troops will die and need to be replaced.
Let me compete with the local smithy, if the town has one. This would lead to deflation and cause all weapons to become cheaper, making me lose money and leading to the smithy becoming less profitable to the owner. If I own a smithy in that town, I might think twice about selling my crafted stuff there. Let me repair my own and my soldiers equipment. Let me make horse shoes, for a small (and maybe temporary) speed buff on the campaign map, in exchange for crafting materials(and thus, likely, money). Let me arm the local populace to aid them in rising up against their overlord, if their loyalty is low. You get the idea. There are so many things you could do with this. You wouldn't even need to use any of my suggestions. Just make it have an impact. Make it feel like it's an integral part of the world and the game loop, as opposed to an isolated and self serving feature that won't influence anyone or anything but yourself.
Speaking of influence: Let's talk about towns and villages. They look amazing. Really. Their architecture is cool and distinct, they "look" lived in and their size makes sense for a setting in medieval times. Aaaaand that's about where it stops. Walking through a town, you notice very fast that it's a rotting corpse with a nice paint job. Now, what do I mean by that? It looks cool, being in a town. Seeing the NPCs walking around, talking to each other, doing their stuff, is nice too. But it is really lifeless. There is nothing you can do there. All the NPCs talk about the same stuff to you, if at all. None of it anything meaningful. There are no quests to discover, no unique situations to unfold. Nothing, absolutely nothing. It's just a pretty background for an inevitable battlefield down the line.
Why won't the thugs try to rob me, if I walk into their alley all by myself, unarmed? Why won't the beggars ask me for money or food? Nobody comes to me, to speak to me about something. Dunno, convince me to join their cult, talk to me about anything really. Nobody acknowledges you're even there. Cool, that fits for some nobody hoodlum at clan rank 1, maybe. But if I've spent the last 100 days keeping pesky bandits off the road around the town, making a name for myself, being a well known clan - nobody recognizes me, asks me for favors, applauds me or mocks me. Heck, I could be the arena champion, have won the last 500 tournaments without going down a single time. Apparently the whole watching crowds memories are constantly wiped after every tourney.
I don't want this to become skyrim either, don't get me wrong. What I mean is that yeah, if I am a famous Aserai bandit leader, I dont expect some random sturgian peasant to know about me and remark about my cool journey. But make it make sense. If I've spent most of my game around the empire and I've won some big battles, a lot of tournaments, defeated a ton of bandits, helped notables, etc, I expect the people of the empire to have heard about me at least. They don't even need to shower me with praise or gifts. Just give my accomplishments some meaning and an actual feeling of progression. As it stands clan tier, for example, does nothing but give me the described stat boosts in party size and the eventual ability to form a kingdom. Oh yeah, speaking of. I am a king. I am the towns lord. Guess what, nobody gives a ****. I think the guards, when spoken to, remark on how "everything is cool, boss" or something along the lines and that is the extent to which it matters IN YOUR OWN TOWN.
Beyond that, I want to be able to influence the town itself. Where are the 500 dudes I just dropped off to guard the town literally 5 minutes ago, when I visit it? They're nobody to be found. Are they all on a potty break at the same time? Let me fund projects in my town(beyond the click a button to make a building level 3). Let me sponsor games or a tournament. Let me fund public projects(bread for the poor etc) that have an effect on loyalty and other stuff, beyond passing a law in the kingdom tab. Let me actually govern the town and reign judgement over the issues my artisans and merchants come to me with. Let me customize my throne room or keep. Maybe host banquets and invite other nobles to improve their opinion of me or treacherously imprison them. There are so many things you could possibly do with owning a town and this game does nothing. Towns, just like crafting, are a self serving feature. You conquer one to make money, to conquer another, then another, then another, until you get bored and quit.
I was gonna write elaborate about diplomacy and how it is stupid that the best way to improve relations with someone is to attack, defeat and release them, since the game lacks any meaningful way, beyond the occasional rng quest, to improve relations with people. Heck, I can easier improve relations with enemy nobles, rather than my own wife or companions. That's just sad and nothing else. I can't talk to my companions about current events, ask them about their thoughts or advice. I don't have to take their views or feelings into account, be afraid they might betray me, try to keep them happy, etc. Let alone nobles and kingdom interactions.
"Oh, what's that? You want to have an alliance by marrying my child? Sure. Give me 100k bucks. Great, here you go. You can have them. Oh, by the way, let me just declare war on you 1 second later lmao."
"Oof, you beat me into submission, destroyed 10 of my armies, conquered half of my kingdom and have me at your mercy. Also, other kingdoms are dogpiling on me now, because I am weak. How about YOU pay ME, so we can make peace?"
"Oh yeah, about that peace we declared 2 days ago and that great deal where you pay me tons of money despite me losing badly. Yeah that was just a joke. We are at war again, loser."
Don't think I have to add anything to this really. The whole system is broken and shallow. There is no alliance building. There is no treachery. There is no "Reputation". There is no AI logic, to dogpile someone who is dominating, in order to stop them from growing even stronger. There are no "personal grudges" among rulers etc. The whole relations system is worthless. I can have 100 opinion with every noble of another kingdom and they will all still happily declare on me just the same as a kingdom with -100 opinion nobles. Makes no difference. Might as well remove this feature in its current iteration.
Now, what do I really want to say with all this? I know, most of it sounds rather negative. I can promise you though, just as I premised - I had a blast with the game all the same. The problem is really that this is an empty husk of a (beautiful) game that is nonetheless build on an amazing foundation. All the building blocks are there, really. If this game could have any depth and I mean real depth, it could be one of the greatest achievements in gaming history.
The reason I write all this is not to belittle the game or undermine the amazing work the devs have done with it so far. It's because I see a gem underneath all the meaninglessness here and I want to see that gem shine brightly. I hope that could maybe give you a few ideas or highlight something that has not (often) been spoken about yet, so that it may be adressed in the future.
Like I keep saying, the foundation is there. The early game proves this. The problem only really arises once youve defeated 30 bands of deserters, returned the peasants 20th daughter to him, won your 100th tournament and sold your 5000th horse to finally reach 300 in trade. There is no content and where there is no content, the player has to set their own goal, as is customary in sandbox games. The problem really is that there is preciously little, beyond "reach x amount of cash" or "conquer the world" that the player can really set as a long term goal. You cant dedicate yourself to see a specific town become great and dominate the others around it. You can't make it your goal to equip all the nobles with mastercrafted weapons you've made. You can't make it your goal to establish a trade empire to dominate the markets. Because none of that is actually in the game in any meaningful(if at all) way. So you are left with the one thing the game does reasonably(and imo more than reasonably) well - combat and armies clashing. Problem is, as with anything in life - you do it enough times, it becomes a chore. And that's when a game becomes boring and uninteresting. If this game wants to succeed and be remembered as the gem it can and wants to be, there needs to be more to it than just "gather x guys and go off conquering towns".
Thanks for reading through all of this if you've made it this far. I know, my incoherent ramblings can be hard to stomach sometimes. So you've got my heartfelt gratitude and respect for sitting through it all.
PS: I know, there are a lot of people unhappy about MP. As I have never played it and personally have no interest in it, I purposefully left it out as I wouldn't have anything meaningful to add to it.
Been lurking here for a while, on and off reading the discussions and suggestions. I thought, maybe I'd like to add something as well so here goes nothing I guess.
Just a heads up tho: I have never played or personally experienced warband or any of the previous titles, so some of my feedback might come off as uninformed or weird to some of the veterans here. I have also not been one of the very early adopters. I bought the game relatively recently, as compared to its almost 2 years of life at this point. So I have not experienced earlier iterations of, lets say, the xp system for example. Also, as of today, I am still on 1.6.5. I very much doubt the latter will change much if anything about what I am gonna give my feedback on, but I just wanted to put it out there for full transparency and to avoid confusion.
If I suggest something that previous games like warband did better, by all means, chime in and educate me on how my suggestion is inferior. I'll be quite happy to be enlightened.
I will also try to avoid talking about anything related to balancing, as that is usually always subject to change in a developing game and even more so in an early access title. I might make a few mentions, but will try to keep them to a minimum, as they add nothing of substance imo.
That being said, here goes:
I've played around 200 ish hours of the game at this point. Most of it in the last couple months. Had an absolute blast with the game for most of that time spent on it. Still, the longer I played, the more I noticed that beyond the honestly very solid framework and fun basic game loop, the game is essentially dead.
Many games, especially open world or rpg types, but also strategy and others suffer from a strong early and maybe also mid game and then during the late game, you find yourself incessantly doing the same crap over and over to the point where it no longer feels like a fun game but more like a chore. That is nothing new, but this game essentially takes it to the extreme, to the point where you could hyperbolically say the game as no late game. Let me explain a bit.
What's the point of trading? No, really, what's the point? In most games it serves a single purpose and that is for the player to earn money. It's a valid reason, as many games that aren't shooters or the sports type have an ingame economy for the player to utilize. So what to you trade for in Bannerlord? Well, money, I guess. But really, what is that money used for? Sure, I mean, you buy stuff, yeah. Obviously. In the case of Bannerlord you also pay your troops with money. But then what? Upkeep for troops is laughably small, unless you run a stack of 200 T6 units. In which case you have the military might to take over a town or castle - which in turn alleviates all your money problems, making money pointless again. You might wanna buy equipment. Yeah, gotcha. Then you got all the equipment you want. Plus some extras to change your look every now and again. And even some more extras for your buddies. But, well, again... Then what? Equipment does not break or degrade. You don't have to take care of it. It's a one time purchase and forget about it deal.
Ok, cool. Maybe you want to boost city building. Great, so you've spent money to... earn more money. Cool, I mean that is the basic concept of earning money in any game and I guess real life. But then your city is maxed out, you got 330 in trade, you're making crazy trade deals, running lots of caravans, owning the max amount of workshops, taxing your peasans and... become jeff bezos? Really, making money to make more money, to make more money.... to do what with, exactly? See my problem yet? There is nothing to do with all that wealth. There is no "end game goal" to your money, except making more money. Sure, you might wanna hit 1 million gold. Then maybe you will want to hit 10 million. Some crazy people might even aim for 100 million. But at what point is the amount of money you got gonna be so high that you just go "and now what?"?
This game not only needs more meaningful ways to spend and earn money, it also needs more money sinks built into the basic game loop. Why can't I become a wealthy patron of one of the many kingdoms. Let me fund them and watch them conquer their enemies. Or I will fund everyone, watch the world burn and sweep in when I see my chance. Why not let me have to repair my equipment occasionally, to have a regular money sink after battle? Heck, even things like horses need tending to and fodder, if I wanna become a horse merchant, as seems to be the meta to level trading these days. Be creative. Think of ways to make the player spend their hard earned cash in regular intervals, but without making it overbearing and annoying. And then give the player way to influence the world and spend their money on their own terms on meaningful decisions and in ways that actually matter.
Same goes for crafting. I won't talk about how the random nature of unlocks is an actually atrocious way of handling it. The devs seem to have grasped that themselves if their own statements are to be believed. However, crafting in and of itself is just as hollow as earning money. You screw around a bit until you unlock the parts you want, then you craft your weapons and then.... idk, do crafting writs? How many, until you get bored? And yes, I know, you can make mad cash and all that. See the above part about money, as to why I will ignore that. This feature, by itself, is worthless. It needs to be integrated into the game and properly integrated. If I am a master smith, let nobles hire me to craft a weapon for them - and then let them equip that weapon and maybe use it against me later. Let me equip my troops. The game seems to handle them in a similar way to you and your buddies, as they sport the same equipment slots. It shouldn't be too hard to make that happen. The basic framework is there. Or do you want me to believe that the 160 gold it took to upgrade them was enough gold to by them the late game armor and weapons they're sporting, as opposed to the farming tools they start out with? I mean heck, if you don't wanna invest in smithing, you can always buy their weapons at the local market. Another meaningful money sink, as troops will die and need to be replaced.
Let me compete with the local smithy, if the town has one. This would lead to deflation and cause all weapons to become cheaper, making me lose money and leading to the smithy becoming less profitable to the owner. If I own a smithy in that town, I might think twice about selling my crafted stuff there. Let me repair my own and my soldiers equipment. Let me make horse shoes, for a small (and maybe temporary) speed buff on the campaign map, in exchange for crafting materials(and thus, likely, money). Let me arm the local populace to aid them in rising up against their overlord, if their loyalty is low. You get the idea. There are so many things you could do with this. You wouldn't even need to use any of my suggestions. Just make it have an impact. Make it feel like it's an integral part of the world and the game loop, as opposed to an isolated and self serving feature that won't influence anyone or anything but yourself.
Speaking of influence: Let's talk about towns and villages. They look amazing. Really. Their architecture is cool and distinct, they "look" lived in and their size makes sense for a setting in medieval times. Aaaaand that's about where it stops. Walking through a town, you notice very fast that it's a rotting corpse with a nice paint job. Now, what do I mean by that? It looks cool, being in a town. Seeing the NPCs walking around, talking to each other, doing their stuff, is nice too. But it is really lifeless. There is nothing you can do there. All the NPCs talk about the same stuff to you, if at all. None of it anything meaningful. There are no quests to discover, no unique situations to unfold. Nothing, absolutely nothing. It's just a pretty background for an inevitable battlefield down the line.
Why won't the thugs try to rob me, if I walk into their alley all by myself, unarmed? Why won't the beggars ask me for money or food? Nobody comes to me, to speak to me about something. Dunno, convince me to join their cult, talk to me about anything really. Nobody acknowledges you're even there. Cool, that fits for some nobody hoodlum at clan rank 1, maybe. But if I've spent the last 100 days keeping pesky bandits off the road around the town, making a name for myself, being a well known clan - nobody recognizes me, asks me for favors, applauds me or mocks me. Heck, I could be the arena champion, have won the last 500 tournaments without going down a single time. Apparently the whole watching crowds memories are constantly wiped after every tourney.
I don't want this to become skyrim either, don't get me wrong. What I mean is that yeah, if I am a famous Aserai bandit leader, I dont expect some random sturgian peasant to know about me and remark about my cool journey. But make it make sense. If I've spent most of my game around the empire and I've won some big battles, a lot of tournaments, defeated a ton of bandits, helped notables, etc, I expect the people of the empire to have heard about me at least. They don't even need to shower me with praise or gifts. Just give my accomplishments some meaning and an actual feeling of progression. As it stands clan tier, for example, does nothing but give me the described stat boosts in party size and the eventual ability to form a kingdom. Oh yeah, speaking of. I am a king. I am the towns lord. Guess what, nobody gives a ****. I think the guards, when spoken to, remark on how "everything is cool, boss" or something along the lines and that is the extent to which it matters IN YOUR OWN TOWN.
Beyond that, I want to be able to influence the town itself. Where are the 500 dudes I just dropped off to guard the town literally 5 minutes ago, when I visit it? They're nobody to be found. Are they all on a potty break at the same time? Let me fund projects in my town(beyond the click a button to make a building level 3). Let me sponsor games or a tournament. Let me fund public projects(bread for the poor etc) that have an effect on loyalty and other stuff, beyond passing a law in the kingdom tab. Let me actually govern the town and reign judgement over the issues my artisans and merchants come to me with. Let me customize my throne room or keep. Maybe host banquets and invite other nobles to improve their opinion of me or treacherously imprison them. There are so many things you could possibly do with owning a town and this game does nothing. Towns, just like crafting, are a self serving feature. You conquer one to make money, to conquer another, then another, then another, until you get bored and quit.
I was gonna write elaborate about diplomacy and how it is stupid that the best way to improve relations with someone is to attack, defeat and release them, since the game lacks any meaningful way, beyond the occasional rng quest, to improve relations with people. Heck, I can easier improve relations with enemy nobles, rather than my own wife or companions. That's just sad and nothing else. I can't talk to my companions about current events, ask them about their thoughts or advice. I don't have to take their views or feelings into account, be afraid they might betray me, try to keep them happy, etc. Let alone nobles and kingdom interactions.
"Oh, what's that? You want to have an alliance by marrying my child? Sure. Give me 100k bucks. Great, here you go. You can have them. Oh, by the way, let me just declare war on you 1 second later lmao."
"Oof, you beat me into submission, destroyed 10 of my armies, conquered half of my kingdom and have me at your mercy. Also, other kingdoms are dogpiling on me now, because I am weak. How about YOU pay ME, so we can make peace?"
"Oh yeah, about that peace we declared 2 days ago and that great deal where you pay me tons of money despite me losing badly. Yeah that was just a joke. We are at war again, loser."
Don't think I have to add anything to this really. The whole system is broken and shallow. There is no alliance building. There is no treachery. There is no "Reputation". There is no AI logic, to dogpile someone who is dominating, in order to stop them from growing even stronger. There are no "personal grudges" among rulers etc. The whole relations system is worthless. I can have 100 opinion with every noble of another kingdom and they will all still happily declare on me just the same as a kingdom with -100 opinion nobles. Makes no difference. Might as well remove this feature in its current iteration.
Now, what do I really want to say with all this? I know, most of it sounds rather negative. I can promise you though, just as I premised - I had a blast with the game all the same. The problem is really that this is an empty husk of a (beautiful) game that is nonetheless build on an amazing foundation. All the building blocks are there, really. If this game could have any depth and I mean real depth, it could be one of the greatest achievements in gaming history.
The reason I write all this is not to belittle the game or undermine the amazing work the devs have done with it so far. It's because I see a gem underneath all the meaninglessness here and I want to see that gem shine brightly. I hope that could maybe give you a few ideas or highlight something that has not (often) been spoken about yet, so that it may be adressed in the future.
Like I keep saying, the foundation is there. The early game proves this. The problem only really arises once youve defeated 30 bands of deserters, returned the peasants 20th daughter to him, won your 100th tournament and sold your 5000th horse to finally reach 300 in trade. There is no content and where there is no content, the player has to set their own goal, as is customary in sandbox games. The problem really is that there is preciously little, beyond "reach x amount of cash" or "conquer the world" that the player can really set as a long term goal. You cant dedicate yourself to see a specific town become great and dominate the others around it. You can't make it your goal to equip all the nobles with mastercrafted weapons you've made. You can't make it your goal to establish a trade empire to dominate the markets. Because none of that is actually in the game in any meaningful(if at all) way. So you are left with the one thing the game does reasonably(and imo more than reasonably) well - combat and armies clashing. Problem is, as with anything in life - you do it enough times, it becomes a chore. And that's when a game becomes boring and uninteresting. If this game wants to succeed and be remembered as the gem it can and wants to be, there needs to be more to it than just "gather x guys and go off conquering towns".
Thanks for reading through all of this if you've made it this far. I know, my incoherent ramblings can be hard to stomach sometimes. So you've got my heartfelt gratitude and respect for sitting through it all.
PS: I know, there are a lot of people unhappy about MP. As I have never played it and personally have no interest in it, I purposefully left it out as I wouldn't have anything meaningful to add to it.
damn... it is sad.
.
