Blocking 2 hits at the same time

[Silvernj]

This has been in a game for a while, so it's no news but since ppl started to pull this move off more consistently lately I've decided to make a topic to talk about this feature/bug.
What happens is when you're fighting in a 2v1 situation Inf+Cav vs Inf - solo inf can actually block 2 different hits with one block if he changes block direction at the last moment. Check Koso's video below as he's pretty famous with 2v1 blocking:
Koso's video (check in 0.5)
Of course, it's a matter of taste, like - would you prefer solo inf to be able to survive more if he pulls off this block or should that solo inf suffer a hit since 2 players managed to time their hits well.
I'd say that this block should not be possible as it punishes teamplay.

NIN3, could you please give us an insight if this is an intended feature and if so - why?​

 

[Younes]

I'd say it's more a combination of the community wanting a more responsive block system but also the block system being collision based.

I don't think you will be able to have both collision based and responsive block system if you want to avoid people like koso doing that kind of thing.

 

[Silvernj]

I'm totally fine with people blocking 2 hits when they are poorly timed but it's kind of frustrating when u teamplay and get worse results compared to just spamming LBM

 

[Terco_Viejo]

Check this
In my opinion a shield should be able to parry two hits at the same time while maintaining the block; a 1h/2h weapon I have my doubts. Of course, the example in the video is terrible. To parry with a single top block a side swing and a thrust from horseback is beyond grotesque in my eyes.

 

[Errayn]

just a feature (from 0:12)

 

[Younes]

just a feature (from 0:12)

Remember, it's collision based, this is bound to happen.

 

[NIN3]

Hey!
It is intended that you can block more than one hit or if you are switching to a different block direction. Also like I explained in my posts concerning block cones, you can block all attacks coming from that blocking cone OR if they hit the physics of your block. This makes it possible to block down thrusts of cavalry with up blocks.

With those things in mind we can understand the video a little better. You started with a left block and transitioned to an up block, during that transition your left block sort of stayed active and then your animation went into the “block” animation while it was already at the top. This happens because of our new blocking system, moving your weapons faster between the blends to address “block delay”.

Overall I think it's important for the game to be able to do multiple blocks consecutively. That's how you beat out worse players and win 1 v X situations, which are already very hard to win.

 

[jon01]

Here are some players' thoughts about fighting in 1vX situations:

Kern:
"In Warband you could actually fight 1v2 with a good chance of clutching such a fight, clutches in Bannerlord are much, much harder ... He can block however he wants and do whatever he wants, but he cannot return a single swing. There's no difference in movement speed, just player numbers. I have a hard time deciding what is the cause of this. Swing speeds? Animations? No option to use footwork to your advantage?"

szymczak1503:
"What surprises me is how dynamic [Warband] was ... Bannerlord is annoyingly slow which makes it more difficult to play one vs many, since right now it is very difficult to pull off maneuvres."

Hans_77:
"Movement is much more slidey/floaty in Bannerlord and character movement speed is faster than Warband's -especially skirmisher classes which zip around like hummingbirds."

--

It's mostly an issue of on-foot movement. Players shouldn't be whizzing around, yet the game shouldn't be floaty and sluggish either. Any decent improvements to the game's physics and movement (including jumping) will improve the gameplay. Not just for 1vX situations, but also to help make the feel of the game better in general.





Blocking multiple attacks in the "wrong" directions has confused players due to its glitchy appearance, and it's a mechanic that cheapens the skill-based nature of the game. I don't think it's a good solution to helping players "beat worse players" in 1vX situations. It would be better if actual player skill and imagination was emphasised instead.

 

[Forsee]

These are just default double blocks, it's not that hard to pull them off. You could to them both in wb, and in bl. They are completely not random and again not that hard to do if your enemies are just trying to hit you simultaneously, but they are also easy to counter with literally any kind of fient since it's easy to follow 2 simple hits simultaneously, but almost impossible to play against 2 decent players while 1 of them is trying to trick you. There's python's record of nw gameplay with these double blocks, it's not that much different here in bl

 

[five bucks]

Of course, it's a matter of taste, like - would you prefer solo inf to be able to survive more if he pulls off this block or should that solo inf suffer a hit since 2 players managed to time their hits well.
I'd say that this block should not be possible as it punishes teamplay.

NIN3, could you please give us an insight if this is an intended feature and if so - why?​

Is 2 players attacking in opposite directions (perhaps by chance) as difficult for them as it is for 1 player holding both of them off, though?

Is it fair for the sole player that when he was fighting 1v1, another enemy just happened to randomly turn up, and now he can't block that other enemy quickly enough even if he's really good? He just has to run or die?

In theory it's nice to "encourage teamplay", but in practice, in the real world, often you will have teammates that are bad or not willing to play as a team, and a good game is designed to allow a skilled player to carry themselves despite that. Because the alternative is punishing the player for something outside their control.

Also it makes for impressive, satisfying gameplay when one good player can hold their own against two bad ones.

Good mechanic, keep it.

 

[KSHMR]

When you think about fighting 1v2 or 1v3 it was much more satisfying in Warband. There are many many factors contributing to this but if we examine the results we can obviously see that instead of skilled players confidently taking those 1v2 or 1v3's, they will now much rather isolate 1v1's or run and postpone the fight awaiting support. The running away situation makes the game quite frustrating at times.

 

[Terco_Viejo]

[...] Blocking multiple attacks in the "wrong" directions has confused players due to its glitchy appearance, and it's a mechanic that cheapens the skill-based nature of the game. I don't think it's a good solution to helping players "beat worse players" in 1vX situations. It would be better if actual player skill and imagination was emphasised instead.

THIS!

 

[Shemaforash]

This has been in a game for a while, so it's no news but since ppl started to pull this move off more consistently lately I've decided to make a topic to talk about this feature/bug.
What happens is when you're fighting in a 2v1 situation Inf+Cav vs Inf - solo inf can actually block 2 different hits with one block if he changes block direction at the last moment. Check Koso's video below as he's pretty famous with 2v1 blocking:
Koso's video (check in 0.5)
Of course, it's a matter of taste, like - would you prefer solo inf to be able to survive more if he pulls off this block or should that solo inf suffer a hit since 2 players managed to time their hits well.
I'd say that this block should not be possible as it punishes teamplay.

NIN3, could you please give us an insight if this is an intended feature and if so - why?​

This example you provided is especially poor since it is just a normal left block to up block. It wasn’t timed right

 

[Silvernj]

This example you provided is especially poor since it is just a normal left block to up block. It wasn’t timed right

Watch it in slow motion. He changed block direction right before the hit you could also tell it by the sounds - it's doubled cus he blocked both hits with upper block.

 

[TheBard]

oi you cave trolls, this aint another warband > bl thread, it's actually providing some footage, it'd be nice if you dont ignore it again to replay the endless tirade.
thanks.

as for the footage: I find this one difficult to judge tbh. Can you provide some more?

 

[jon01]

Nin3 actually explained what happened. He said the right swing was blocked because (even though he made an up block before the block was successful) the previous left block animation hadn't fully blended away, so it was still active, and the player was able to block both right swings and overheads at the same time (presumably while still holding RMB) no matter where the blade was.

There must be some set of bools in the code that determines which direction the player moved the mouse before holding down RMB. That's what should be used to determine whether a block is successful or not. Adding in strangely extended blocking windows and quasi-auto-block features isn't the best way to go, especially in the MP.

The comparisons to Warband were in relation to this "feature" and the 1v2 situation.

 

[Goyyyio]

[...]

It feels as if the devs of Bannerlord are trying to put patches to a hole by doing these maneuvers. Hard to fight in 1vMany? Not going to fix how hard is to return hits in this game, not going to fix how movement works here, better put a double blocking feature.

just a feature (from 0:12)

Not only it feels wrong but in the situation Errayn posted double blocking makes absolutely no sense, what happens in a 1v1 situation where you block with your side block? @NIN3 what is the point?
If you would like to help 1v2 situations become more bearable, maybe chambering can be brought to a better place too (I know it has, but not to the point where is completely reliable)

Going back to Warband after playing Bannerlord for weeks feels like taking an horrible weight off. I do enjoy Bannerlord, but damn Warband still holds up gameplay wise for ages

 

[OurGloriousLeader]

I think the intended purpose from the adjustment to "block delay" was to allow for clutch blocking and to make blocking feel consistent across the board rather than certain angles being significantly slower or unblockable. I don't think the intent was to allow for double blocks from multiple directions from seemingly the same block direction.

Not sure if the block staying active during the blend is good in this regard as it lacks visual clarity - the timing might be fine but the blending might look odd? Or it could require actual timing changes - not sure.

That said, it's not something to prioritise fixing imo until other changes are made as 1vX is already hard, namely due to very slim player capsules (meaning 5 people can hug you from up front instead of just, say, 2), and the wide angles of attack that make it very easy to get around a player. If you nerfed this without touching the rest, the game becomes even more of a gangbang sesh.

 

[Goyyyio]

If they want to solve 1vX they shouldn't let an attack hit thrown in the front hit you in the BACK is ridiculous

 

[Terco_Viejo]

[...]and the wide angles of attack that make it very easy to get around a player. [...]

Recently I asked NIN3 about it... and well... it seems that he has not found a free moment to answer ? . Nevertheless, my dear OGL, keep bringing this problem to the forefront anyway.