why do horse charges only cause a stagger?

[emo_edjiboye]

I can charge at full speed with my horse in heavy armor against a simple recruit, yet all I can do is get them stunned for half a second and have them say "oof!". It doesn't even matter if it's a full on charge or just a trot, it still stuns them for the same amount of time! Shouldn't a full on charge flatten unprepared infantry? Charging shouldn't kill, mind you, just have them face down on the ground for a second or two like it was in warband; Heck, some perks allow knock back in certain weapons, so why not have that for cavalry?
This isn't about buffing/nerfing cavalry as unless you have ally infantry nearby you can't really take advantage of the stun. If you say that stun locking would be an issue it would take several horsemen perfectly hitting a single target do that and at that point you're just playing with your food.
As of now I feel no weight in my horse, no power in my charge, and that is just disappointing.

 

[Lucius Confucius]

Horse charges should be more devastating, yes.

Right now I think the units are mostly just pushed to the side or shoved without even any stagger at all. As though they were friendly units.

You have to have the exact right force and impact angle for someone to fall to the ground. All that shouldn't be necessary.

 

[Ananda_The_Destroyer]

They have to have charge damage that exceeds the armor reduction of the troops, if you get a pureblood you will see some damage and knock down.
As for "why" it's because MP players want to have sword fights and complain and complain and complain about Cav people so they keep nerfing everything about cavalry, making charge damage not exist, knock down rare and pole arms suck but somehow magically stop a horse. Now why does it matter what they do to MP in SP since it's basically a different game genre all together that offers completely different gameplay? They done goofed and I can't explain it at all. They should be completely separate in every way and there's no excuse.

 

[kweassa]

It's to prevent people from just obliterating infantry formations without even using a weapon, by just running horses into into people en masse. The "Charge of the Rohirrim" at the Battle of fields of Pelennor in the movie version of LorR: Return of the King, is precisely what it's meant to prevent.

Otherwise, for example, imagine a pretty standard 150 vs 150 battle with you having around 70 standard Imperial infantry in the frontline, and the enemy are Vlandians with something like 60 melee cavalry. Do you really want something like more than half your infantry gone in one or two charges?

I agree there could be some tweaks. Longer and more significant stun, more consistent blow to the morale, and etc.. but if people want to raise the damage of the charge itself, then it's gonna have to accompany the blunt damage in a blowback to the horse as well, lest the game becomes just a horse-bulldozer game.

God I hope people don't think deadly charges mod is "realistic" in any way.

 

[Ironic Golem]

God I hope people don't think deadly charges mod is "realistic" in any way.

How deadly IS an armored warhorse charging into you?

 

[froggyluv]

How deadly IS an armored warhorse charging into you?

Fully charging -potentially lethal

 

[Ananda_The_Destroyer]

It's to prevent people from just obliterating infantry formations without even using a weapon, by just running horses into into people en masse. The "Charge of the Rohirrim" at the Battle of fields of Pelennor in the movie version of LorR: Return of the King, is precisely what it's meant to prevent.

Otherwise, for example, imagine a pretty standard 150 vs 150 battle with you having around 70 standard Imperial infantry in the frontline, and the enemy are Vlandians with something like 60 melee cavalry. Do you really want something like more than half your infantry gone in one or two charges?

I agree there could be some tweaks. Longer and more significant stun, more consistent blow to the morale, and etc.. but if people want to raise the damage of the charge itself, then it's gonna have to accompany the blunt damage in a blowback to the horse as well, lest the game becomes just a horse-bulldozer game.

God I hope people don't think deadly charges mod is "realistic" in any way.

I think what they should do is have it matter for tier of troops, like have pose for mid and high tier troops so they don't get knocked down or take damage easily, but it's fine for fodder troops like tier 0-2 to just get trampled back and forth by an armored horse, because they're just junk troops that the AI shouldn't be bringing to battle against a developed force and they deserve to be punished for it. Same with archer damage, it's fine for any ranged to wipe out low level light armored troops, but only the best ranged should be doing much damage to high tier armored troops.

What's dum is as it is horses can just go right through infantry and also not knock them down or hurt them so the whole thing just feel like a cluster **** carried by archers and HA and it needs a lot of work.

Also, just gotta say , unless TW greatly improve infantry and medicine I would never-****ing-ever use "70 imperial infantry" or any other infantry because they just don't pull their weight in battle and die too easily. They don't even do anything to stop cavarly as is either, the main use of infantry is to soak up enemy ranged damage while you own ranged kills everything, cavalry included. It's still always questionable to use them over even low level ranged though, because even a t2 archer can get some damage in and be a disposable meat shield. And if use say imperial Xbows instead infantry to guard you other ranged and HA, well then that's so much stronger because you have a powerful ranged unit that outlasts a fire fight and also can SW.

 

[Nopanda]

if they made charging lethal, everyone would complain

 

[Lucius Confucius]

Personally I am okay with charges not doing much HP damage, but I do want them to make units stagger more and fall to the ground. That way a well performed horse charge can be used to break up an enemy formation for a short moment.

 

[emo_edjiboye]

It's to prevent people from just obliterating infantry formations without even using a weapon, by just running horses into into people en masse.

I am not talking about increasing damage of charges, just knock back. you can't obliterate infantry by stunning them for 1-2 seconds, you can, however feel like you are obliterating them and feel like your horse has actual weight and power. that's what I have been getting at

Otherwise, for example, imagine a pretty standard 150 vs 150 battle with you having around 70 standard Imperial infantry in the frontline, and the enemy are Vlandians with something like 60 melee cavalry. Do you really want something like more than half your infantry gone in one or two charges?

again, just knock back. and in your example you used Imperial infantry, the worse infantry when it come with dealing with cavalry since few have spears and can't brace. with or without knock back you can beat them with a few good charges.
it will be more fair to use infantry that have spears or long polearm, which is most of them.

I agree there could be some tweaks. Longer and more significant stun, more consistent blow to the morale, and etc.. but if people want to raise the damage of the charge itself, then it's gonna have to accompany the blunt damage in a blowback to the horse as well, lest the game becomes just a horse-bulldozer game.

again, no increase in damage, just knock back. it won't become a bulldozing simulator, spear bracing will ensure it. I've been at both the receiving and giving end of spear-braced infantry, it is not pretty for charging cavalry. sure the AI isn't the best at spear bracing, especially when they are advancing. counter-charging with cav seem to mess their AI and instead of bracing they will trust with their spear, which is lees effective. but that's TW problem to fix not mine.

 

[froggyluv]

What they should do is create disorientation effect for AI - give them a knocked over animation (if direct hit from charge) and then have them randomly orient their direction when getting up - so they are not unrealistically right back in the fight as well as temporarily lowering their Weapon Proficiency skill until they recover.

 

[Bluko88]

As for "why" it's because MP players want to have sword fights and complain and complain and complain about Cav people so they keep nerfing everything about cavalry, making charge damage not exist, knock down rare and pole arms suck but somehow magically stop a horse. Now why does it matter what they do to MP in SP since it's basically a different game genre all together that offers completely different gameplay? They done goofed and I can't explain it at all. They should be completely separate in every way and there's no excuse.

*Sigh*

That's really dumb. I know Charging does damage (actually been killed that way), but at high speed it should knock any footman down at least as a side effect. Other then map speed bonus, some extra survivability due to Horse HP, and battle mobility what's the point of horseman? Cavalry Charges should be a pretty strong method attack (something to really combat archer cheese), but in this game its just an inconvenience.

This game is always going to fall short isn't it? So many things TW needs to address, and yet allegedly we are only a few months from release... this game is either going to be stuck in EA for another year + or the release will be a disappointment.

I still stand behind my statements from like a year ago they should have just released the game and let modders do as they will without having to worry about updates anymore.

 

[kweassa]

How deadly IS an armored warhorse charging into you?

How likely, would a knight try to defeat infantry by crashing his expensive horse with full barding into infantry, instead of using something pointy and long?

 

[Ironic Golem]

I don't know - probably not high. But that wasn't really my question nor the thing being discussed.
I wasn't trying to argue a point, just wondering what would be realistic in regards to the damage. The tactics of the AI are...another mess.

 

[kweassa]

*Sigh*

That's really dumb. I know Charging does damage (actually been killed that way), but at high speed it should knock any footman down at least as a side effect. Other then map speed bonus, some extra survivability due to Horse HP, and battle mobility what's the point of horseman? Cavalry Charges should be a pretty strong method attack (something to really combat archer cheese), but in this game its just an inconvenience.

Cavalry charges are strong because they approach fast (as in the game), deliver an immensely powerful attack (as in the game), are hard to stop because of the mass (as in the game), and deliver a crippling blow to morale (as in the game).

Cavalry charges don't bulldoze infantry with their horses. The horses aren't invincible machines. With a full-speed impact against a standing person the man could die, but the horse itself could also be seriously injured when not sufficiently armored, and could fall over.

Just where are you getting this image that cavalry just crash into infantry and everyone will die on the spot?

If cavalry just kill infantry by crashing into people with armored horses as the main weapon, why do you think the French needed to charge all-day long, again and again, to finally break the Swiss lines in Marignano?

 

[froggyluv]

How likely, would a knight try to defeat infantry by crashing his expensive horse with full barding into infantry, instead of using something pointy and long?

You would use every asset at your disposal like any fighter with a brain. if you had the weight of armored cavalry going into the sides or rear of an unprotected mass of enemy men - you would use both the stampede/charge power of your mounts AS WELL as your pointy thing. If you wanna argue they should keep horse impact lowered purely for gameplay balance reason -thats one thing -but dont be silly enough to think cavalry never charged and inflicted stampede type damage.

 

[kweassa]

I don't know - probably not high. But that wasn't really my question nor the thing being discussed.
I wasn't trying to argue a point, just wondering what would be realistic in regards to the damage. The tactics of the AI are...another mess.

How it's depicted in the game's realistic. It could use more confusion -- lines shattered more widely with the infantry taking a bit more time to recover and reform lines, but so long as the infantry morale is not shattered, the line will recover in the way it does in the game.

The "image" people think of what happens in a cavalry charge, is the unrealistic one. But like said, real cavalry charges weren't like the Charge of the Rohirrim where a line of horse-dozers just plow and smack into orcs and they all fly and drop dead.

 

[kweassa]

You would use every asset at your disposal like any fighter with a brain. if you had the weight of armored cavalry going into the sides or rear of an unprotected mass of enemy men - you would use both the stampede/charge power of your mounts AS WELL as your pointy thing. If you wanna argue they should keep horse impact lowered purely for gameplay balance reason -thats one thing -but dont be silly enough to think cavalry never charged and inflicted stampede type damage.

You seriously going to argue mounted police plowing into unarmed/poorly armed civilians, is something to compared with attempting a charge into armored people with a lot of long, pointy things?

 

[froggyluv]

You seriously going to argue mounted police plowing into unarmed/poorly armed civilians, is something to compared with attempting a charge into armored people with a lot of long, pointy things?

"if you had the weight of armored cavalry going into the sides or rear of an unprotected mass of enemy men - you would use both the stampede/charge power of your mounts AS WELL as your pointy thing."

Derp. Learn to read kid -it'll help your life.

 

[Aeddes]

Also, why the knight don't get hurt when fly ahead when we kill the horse?