Should new clans spawn in the game when death is enabled?

Should new clans eventually spawn in the game as old clans die?


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Lucius Confucius

LeastBlunted
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I was inspired by this discussion:

But wanted to elaborate on a certain feature. Since clans can die when you have death enabled, the game should be able to spawn new ones so that dynastic gameplay can be enjoyed. Right now that can happen through rebellions and player spawned clans, but that is not enough.

Some ways to do it:
1. Have mercenary clans be able to elevate to nobility. Once noble, spawn new randomized mercenary clans to keep the supply chain going.
2. Just spawn in a new randomized (faction specific) clan in X time in a faction that has the fiefs and who has already lost X number of clans.
3. Add wanderer parties like the player that can be elevated to nobility. This will also open up more early game interaction possibilities.

Whaddya think, eh?
 
Minor factions clawing for nobility is historically correct = power ..so .. yeah

Although having factions splitting into many smaller factions on the death of a leader, that would be better.

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Yes, I think there should be some way for AI rulers to raise new clans (player ruler already can), under some condition and at a cost, which is a big condition in the current bannerlord AI faction set up, as the concept of "cost" "effort" "campaign time"....none of it matters at all to the AI. They don't do anything but make armies and siege or raid, there is no "do this, so this improves and then we can do this" it doesn't exist. Either the ruler will be too stupid to choose to make a new clan and they never will, or it will get cheats to make it do so and the game will just get more artificially repetitive with no counter cost because it doesn't seem like counter cost for the AI is something TW considers.

I guess the first concern though, to me is that the game is already waaaaaaay toooooooo repetitive in a forced unsatisfying, boring way and just making more clans spawn for the AI will just make it more so.

1. Have mercenary clans be able to elevate to nobility. Once noble, spawn new randomized mercenary clans to keep the supply chain going.
It would be fun if they elevated a member of the minor faction to a new clan in a faction, The merc clan should stay as a merc though.

2. Just spawn in a new randomized (faction specific) clan in X time in a faction that has the fiefs and who has already lost X number of clans.
This could be okay IF it has a heavy cost (CAMPAIGN TIME, something else doesn't happen because a clan is made instead) to the faction and a cool down, otherwise executing a faction would just dump new clans forever. Maybe every clan in the faction has to STOP what it's doing gather in one fief every time they make a new clan and stay there for some time.

3. Add wanderer parties like the player that can be elevated to nobility. This will also open up more early game interaction possibilities.
Could be okay if NO CHEATS meaning whatever condition exist for the player to gain these clans the AI ruler must do exactly too. Already the AI cheat too much, hiring mercs remotely, instantly, receiving clans remotely, instantly (and for free?).
 
There would necessarily be a server without cheats yeah but a server one could join on a world stage map to full get the situation under control.
 
Point 3 is something I've always wanted and that along with just lots of variety in neutral parties roaming the map in general would add a lot to the game.

Could be okay if NO CHEATS meaning whatever condition exist for the player to gain these clans the AI ruler must do exactly too. Already the AI cheat too much, hiring mercs remotely, instantly, receiving clans remotely, instantly (and for free?).
This ^^ The AI already doesn't play by the same rules the player does and seeing AI wanderers getting positions like that out of the blue just because its convenient for the game would be a massive kick in the balls
(Also I noticed sometimes when I'm leading an army and we reach an enemy city to siege, my party Lords will recruit + drop off prisoners at the hostile city??)
 
Whaddya think, eh?
I'd like a system where the more clans are killed off, the larger and stronger the remaining clans become.
There would still be new "spawns" of clans as merchant families become more important and things like that, but it'd make sense that when a lot of clans are destroyed more power and fiefs end up in the hand of the surviving clans. That would also change the late game and make single parties larger and stronger.
 
IMO, Two cases:

Yes, a Royal Clan should be able to make a new clan at the same expense as the player raising up a Companion. It would make the same sort of clan as an ennobled Companion, already a Vassal of that faction.

Yes, if their are a vastly reduced number of clans still in play, as neutral but ethnically-defined "aspiring clan". c.f. the player's situation on day one. Which then gets upgraded as it gains clan rank into "can be a mercenary" and then "can be a vassal" and then can be bid for by... or choose to join... a faction. They may, or may not, join an ethnically linked faction, but should be weighted in favour of doing so. Yes, this could conceivably resurrect an annihilated faction, although if it were mine to design they would have to jump through more situational hoops to do that. (and while this opens a whole can of worms about whether factions should be eliminate-able and how; not germane to this directly.)

Otherwise... no. Anyone who plays past mid-game likely works very hard to reduce or eliminate landless clans that do not seek or are not wanted as vassals. In those situations, the elimination of factions should not only be possible but as convenient *and plausible in lore* as possible. (a matter I have a back-of-the-envelope design for, but it's a lengthy discussion and frankly I don't often donate work for free. If someone in-house wants to talk, I'll talk to them about it.)
 
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I'd like new clans to come into the game but not just "spawning in" with no context, rebellions is a great way for new clans so more ways like that would be great imo or kings raising clans like ldgarrett mentioned.
 
Although having factions splitting into many smaller factions on the death of a leader, that would be better.
Yes, this please! Especially if the faction is unstable at the time

I'd also like to mention that a clan whom still controls fiefs is killed off would be a great opportunity for rebellion and civil war within that faction as the nobility fight amongst themselves over who gets the fiefs.
 
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Thanks for referecing my thread :smile:

A while back I wrote this suggestionthread on the topic

And honestly, I´d love something along those lines.
But it´s just one more line on your list - any of these routes would make me happy :smile:
Reactions from TW to your thread:

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Great replies and suggestions.

Some (@Apocal ?) may be scared that a system like this may create more burdensome repetition for players who want to kill everyone. But with a good timer for when a new clan can be made, you may still be able to kill everyone. It may also work in your favour if the system needs fiefs, then when you conquer fiefs the enemy will have fewer to give to new nobles, as such no one new will be made noble.

So this feature shouldn't be too much of a threat to the gameplay of world conquerors, I think.

By the way, is it just me or does the forum feel pretty slow this week?
 
Great replies and suggestions.

Some (@Apocal ?) may be scared that a system like this may create more burdensome repetition for players who want to kill everyone. But with a good timer for when a new clan can be made, you may still be able to kill everyone. It may also work in your favour if the system needs fiefs, then when you conquer fiefs the enemy will have fewer to give to new nobles, as such no one new will be made noble.

So this feature shouldn't be too much of a threat to the gameplay of world conquerors, I think.

By the way, is it just me or does the forum feel pretty slow this week?
Feels like it's slowly dropping
 
Some (@Apocal ?) may be scared that a system like this may create more burdensome repetition for players who want to kill everyone. But with a good timer for when a new clan can be made, you may still be able to kill everyone. It may also work in your favour if the system needs fiefs, then when you conquer fiefs the enemy will have fewer to give to new nobles, as such no one new will be made noble.
The biggest reason for wanting to kill everyone is that dead faction refuse to die by any other means. If TW should solve only one small thing, I think this gets my vote. Make clans leave(To become faction-less - Independent like the T0 Player!) a faction that does not give them holdings and inactivate a faction shortly after last vassal clan left, making the ruler factionless as well!

Reactions from TW to your thread:

51607425_1583404398.149_URYzEZ_n.jpg
Then I try again, and again and again! :smile:
 
Yes I think they should be able to spawn new clans if they meet certain conditions: 1) one or more clan has died out in the kingdom and 2) they have additional fiefs to give to said new clan.

The birth system is just too slow to be impactful in generating new nobles and rebel clans rarely join a kingdom. They need something to balance out the high rate of death of nobles.
 
2. Just spawn in a new randomized (faction specific) clan in X time in a faction that has the fiefs and who has already lost X number of clans.

It's a good idea and I understand what you want to achieve with this one but as noted above it'll likely lead to an endless and repetitive grind if implemented poorly. I think AI leaders having to actually draw from a pool of available resources (ie. elevate existing parties) would be better than just creating new ones from thin air. It seems the AI already does enough of that already when raising armies and garrisons.
 
This is that CK2 feature, the famous old adventurers rising up to claim a title you own.
I like it, it would make the game more dynamic, but if poorly implemented it could just turn out as a tedious balancing feature that would make everything you do pointless. It shouldn't be used as a mere balancing feature, but should have some rules for when a new clan will appear, how big it will be, and if it will play into some bigger event on the map, maybe even create a new faction with randomized troop trees.
I'm thinking, minor factions from Prophesy of Pendor, and Perisno mods, Black knight invasion in the old Native Expansion mod, and knighthood orders from Pendor. These are some examples of where they were maybe hard-code, but still proved somewhat interesting.
Mercenary families should definitely be a thing, landless rogues roaming the land looking for a contract, or to settle down, and swear fealty to a lord. It's definitely possible, but it should always be a neutral clan that spawns, without a kingdom, or any predestined allegiance in order to avoid pointless balancing. The feature should serve to supplement the ingame world, but not to balance out the powers.
 
Great replies and suggestions.

Some (@Apocal ?) may be scared that a system like this may create more burdensome repetition for players who want to kill everyone. But with a good timer for when a new clan can be made, you may still be able to kill everyone. It may also work in your favour if the system needs fiefs, then when you conquer fiefs the enemy will have fewer to give to new nobles, as such no one new will be made noble.

So this feature shouldn't be too much of a threat to the gameplay of world conquerors, I think.
It isn't more repetition for people who want to kill everyone that I worry about. It is putting people who play the game without going all-in on executions who will feel like nothing they accomplish matters. Because if an AI clan dying off is (immediately or not) undone by raising a new AI clan, then the only way to have a visible impact is through executing everyone. In fact, it might just encourage that behavior even more with a cooldown because you hit -100 relations pretty quickly executing people because all the clans are there. But with a cooldown you'll have to wait awhile and these new clans are going to poof into existence without having been around for the murder-spree.

Sure, sometimes they might be a bit hostile, but it is nothing like -100 (possibly lower, actually; I think BL might cut-off the display even when it is -101 or lower).
 
Number 3 would be very appreciated. Would bring more life into the world

I don't fully agree with number 1 and 2: 2 would get repetitive and feel like it's just a thing implemented to artificially prolong gameplay, and 1 I'd rather keep mercenaries as mercenaries personally
 
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