Bannerlord was a grift

[Roy1012]

I am on my phone in bed and thus unable/unwilling to do the exact quotes when I’m responding to everything.

Whether or not you like the term untaught or ignorant, it still talks about the objective reality of people not knowing what warband has to offer. Whether you want to denote that (very large) group of people ignorant, untaught, unaware or tomatoes doesn’t change the fact that group exists.

You mention calling my poll the “old guard” as if that helps your argument. That’s kinda exactly what I’ve been trying to say this entire time: people who have played and experienced pretty much everything warband has to offer do not like bannerlord. I didn’t claim it Represented the entirety of the Mount and blade community, only that it represented those people. Obviously there are groups/factions/blocs of players, the veterans, tomatoes (ignorants) and brainlits (people who play warband and then enjoy bannerlord) being the main three, though the latter, as I pointed out, is far smaller.

I do have a bias towards warband, I think throughout the 34 pages of the thread I’ve made that abdundantly clear. Obviously, you are entitled to your opinion, I did not say you weren’t. My point is that people who have experienced warband and prefer bannerlord don’t know what is of good value in a game, the primary, IN MY OPINION (I know you hate when people give their opinions and don’t point out that it is their opinion, so I spelled it out for you, as if my comment isn’t already my opinion), being the gameplay. Obviously other things like music and graphics are vital, but things like the settings menu UI are obviously IN MY OPINION less relevant.

I argue that warband in its current state is leagues better than bannerlord in its current state. That’s my opinion and we are having a conversation and dialogue about it right now. Like we have for the past five pages. And no I am not content to leave such convo at “you like wb I like bannerlord. Agree to disagree”. I would like to present my case as to why warband is simply a better game in their current states. You are more than welcome to agree, disagree or not comment, just like anyone else. If you disagree, I’m going to explain to you why I think you’re wrong though. That is, after all, the dialogue you want, yes?

 

[eddiemccandless]

I copy paste quotes from other people into the wrong quoting brackets sometimes, and then it looks like someone said something that someone else said instead and everything gets very confusing.

Why, yes, you do indeed.

For the record, I never said that people who like Bannerlord are stupid and I don't agree with that statement. I also don't think that everyone or even most people who like Bannerlord are ignorant. I do think that there's a decent chunk of people who play Bannerlord and enjoy it who do so because they don't know nor understand what made Warband good.

But, most importantly, and this just might be the most relevant contribution that anyone did to this thread:

I ain't happy, I'm feeling glad
I got sunshine in a bag
I'm useless, but not for long
The future is coming on

 

[julijs]

people who play Bannerlord and enjoy it who do so because they don't know nor understand what made Warband good.

I argue that warband in its current state is leagues better than bannerlord in its current state.

Neither game is perfect, and neither game is leagues better than the other. Both have their pros and their cons, but one can prefer one over the other.

I really cannot disagree with that more. People can like different things and not be stupid. It literally comes down to subjective tastes.

I think I misunderstood the thread through the OP, and so did all of you. All of this nonsense about these "subjective, objective, superficial opinions" are more nauseating than the hundreds of analogies used to describe your preference and your "objective, subjective" opinion on the workings of Talewords and Bannerlord.

I don't know how many times I have to post this on the threads, and wonder how many more times someone will rebuke my rational justification that people can enjoy the game for the same reasons someone may not enjoy the game, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that, but it also holds absolutely no importance in this thread specifically and for that reason I think we should all get off our high-horses.

Now let's look at the actual definition of a scam:
- a fraudulent or deceptive act or operation
- to deceive and defraud someone
- to obtain (something, such as money) by scam

Now let's look at the actual definition of grift:
- a group of methods for obtaining money falsely through the use of swindles, frauds and dishonesty.
- money obtained from such practices

Now for those of us who actually have been keeping track of the development progress of Bannerlord since it's reveal in September 2012 all the way till this present moment.

Did, or did not Taleworld's advertise their game on on the pretence that there would be certain features or content included into the game before it's release in March 2020?

Did or did not Taleworld's advertise that their game, even though vague, would include "All" the main staples of the Mount & Blade experience?

Did or did not Taleworld's strip of content or planned content that was advertised before its release, only during after its release, even though they knew full well prior that it wouldn't be included?

Did or did not Taleworld's show of in-game footage of what was included in Bannerlord before its release, but is stripped off post release and is longer planned to be implemented, thus far showing false advertising of a product?

Did or did not Taleworld's take any shortcuts into its development, which can be interpreted as removing content, or reducing the quality of its game to be able to reach the final product earlier, albeit saying in Gamescon-Press interview that it "wont take any shortcuts to get there" and "our primary focus is the quality of the final product".

If you answered "no" to any of these, then for the love of dear god, I will for the last bring up every source. every statement all the way from 2012 to now, including developer sources in these forums and then match and compare with that we have now, even though we have had many of these already throughout the forums lifespan.

If you answered yes to these, is that not the definition of "deceiving" the market audience in order to sell your game, is this is not the definition of "swindling, and or the use of dishonesty to obtain (something, such as money" from the customer even though it did not represent the game they marketed.

And if your answer to any of these is "It is early access, it will be included - the development is just slow" then you have thus far not included yourself into these forums to be aware that this is not the case. Features that you think will come, wont come, because they have decided to strip the content of its plans to be included in the game indefinitely.

If someone such as myself, sees on the steam Bannerlord page, that the game would include all the main staples of the "Mount and Blade experience" which is a reference to Mount and Blade: Warband in it's early access release title, whilst deliberately not having "all" the main staples of a "Mount and Blade experience" -Is this, or is it not a an act of deceit, or a deceptive act to obtain my money, the customer; through the use of dishonesty all the while pouring of the salt to the wound in it's Early Access feature of being an Early Access game on Steam.


So in point, did this game and the company have causation of being labelled a scam, a grift or include the use of fraudulent practices to sell its game, especially at its narrative and target audience of its core warband players -Regardless of the current features and content that you may like, be happy with, and consider it being a good game in your opinion and preference as of yet. or did it not?

 

[Apocal]

So in point, did this game and the company have causation of being labelled a scam, a grift or include the use of fraudulent practices to sell its game, especially at its narrative and target audience of its core warband players -Regardless of the current features and content that you may like, be happy with, and consider it being a good game in your opinion and preference as of yet. or did it not?

No, not really. It is like any other game with a bunch of cut or modified features. Yeah, the marketing oversells things but that's just the nature of the beast.

 

[Kentucky 『 ＨＥＩＧＵＩ 』 James]

It's also very difficult to prove "intent" with something that seems to intentionally undersell. Even indian insurance scammers will try to justify to themselves why they're robbing vulnerable foreigners.

The use of the word Scam or Grift is just unhelpful because it conjures up an image of cackling villains deliberately making a bad game. Personally I don't think it matters at all whether they intended to remove features or not, and I don't think it's even possible to know for sure. Either way, anyone who bought the game (not me lol) is now forced to play something they didn't want, but paid full price for.

 

[julijs]

No, not really. It is like any other game with a bunch of cut or modified features. Yeah, the marketing oversells things but that's just the nature of the beast.

This isn't about overselling the game, you don't see gaming studios advertising content that in the end has nothing to do with the game, and then outright sell a product that is something else in its nature and direction.

definition of overselling: "to make an idea, product, opportunity, etc. seem better than it is"

You can exaggerate the quality of your features, the complexity of the sieges, but you cannot put overselling and broad daylight swindling together, they aren't mutually exclusive

if you advertise a feature, but then don't include it at all in the final product, that's called being fraudulent

if you advertise a feature, and then overexaggerate how well it is, when in reality its really shallow, but nevertheless is still included, then that is overselling a product.

 

[julijs]

The use of the word Scam or Grift is just unhelpful because it conjures up an image of cackling villains deliberately making a bad game. Personally I don't think it matters at all whether they intended to remove features or not, and I don't think it's even possible to know for sure.

Is what I just stated not the definition of what they did? scam: you're selling a product under a false pretence to receive money (sales).

If it isn't the word scam or grift, then what it is? what would your definition of being sold a game on the false truths of it including something, "overselling" those features and then have them not included in the final product without notice, or shall I say only after its release, no matter the intention, good or bad and even sympathetic.

 

[Life_Erikson]

Doesn't matter, they already bought the game. Almost nobody was talking or asking about the combat before release.

Exactly. But thats my point. The majority doesn't want complex and deep gaming experiences. They want (mostly) quick gratification to relax.
Therefore it is advisable for maximizing profit to make games which go that route.

Bannerlord went partially that route with its constant war and nonexistant politics.
(It also went against that route by making the game grindier than ever.)

But the matter is that a dev-studio which produces its games soley for profit will not make the games fringe player groups want.
There simply isn't enough profit in it. To me it seems that TW may (or may not, I'm not exactly certain) have done that exact shift from a gamestudio with heartblood which creates games they would play themselves to a gamestudio looking first and foremost to maximize profit.

 

[e222143]

EDIT: After scrolling up and reading a bit more again, I see that there is thought that I think that people who have played Warband and like Bannerlord are stupid. I did not make this argument, but I do agree with it. People who prefer Bannerlord to Warband are dumb and I will argue to the death about why they are stupid. @Roy1012

You cannot call people stupid just because they liked a game. Shame on you. You have the right to not like the game and me to like it. We can share our views and maybe came to a conclusion. However, you cannot insult people just because of their thoughts about a simple toy (video game). Warband was the first game that I actually paid and I enjoyed playing bannerlord (not as much as I expected though). I am really sad that you can easily insult people, shame on you.

 

[Spinozart1]

If someone such as myself, sees on the steam Bannerlord page, that the game would include all the main staples of the "Mount and Blade experience" which is a reference to Mount and Blade: Warband in it's early access release title, whilst deliberately not having "all" the main staples of a "Mount and Blade experience" -Is this, or is it not a an act of deceit, or a deceptive act to obtain my money, the customer; through the use of dishonesty all the while pouring of the salt to the wound in it's Early Access feature of being an Early Access game on Steam.

Please define the Mount and Blade experience...
I have checked one more time the steam Bannerlord page and, except for the part about criminal empire, you got what is written in the game description.
You didn't get what you were expecting... Okay... But naming it a scam, grift or whatever dishonest attempt from TW to take your money is just an overreaction...

 

[julijs]

Please define the Mount and Blade experience...

You ask Taleworld's what it is, because clearly Bannerlord is not the "Mount and Blade experience" the sane person that played warband would think, with whatever underlined in yellow being the additional content from Bannerlord.

But naming it a scam, grift or whatever dishonest attempt from TW to take your money is just an overreaction...

Give a definition then.

You didn't get what you were expecting... Okay... But naming it a scam

Didn't receive and are not receiving what was advertised since 2012 until now. Not what I expected, but what was under-delivered, or in most cases not being delivered at all.

 

[Spinozart1]

You ask Taleworld's what it is, because clearly Bannerlord is not the "Mount and Blade experience" the sane person that played warband would think, with whatever underlined in yellow being the additional content from Bannerlord.

Subject to personal interpretation obviously...
I can see a lot of people that were expecting BL as a mix of CK3 and M&B, are you one of those?

Give a definition then.

Miscommunication and misunderstanding.

Didn't receive and are not receiving what was advertised since 2012 until now. Not what I expected, but what was under-delivered, or in most cases not being delivered at all.

Okay for me the argumentation about what was said 10 years ago doesn't really work...
Especially when we know that TW changed several time their vision of the game... For management/economical/external reasons or whatever. Maybe they didn't even have any final vision of the game until actually releasing it in Early Access (new battle terrain feature?)
But calling it a scam/grift? No... That's just disrecpectfull for all the devs/sceners/artists involved in the development of this game.

 

[Phantom425]

Why, yes, you do indeed.

That was my mistake, I’ll edit the post to show I was responding to Roy. I’m really sorry, I did not want to make it seem like that is what you were saying.

 

[julijs]

Miscommunication and misunderstanding.

In that case, Chronicles Of Elyria and of Kings and Men were just miscommunication and misunderstanding.

But calling it a scam/grift? No... That's just disrecpectfull for all the devs/sceners/artists involved in the development of this game.

It's a marketing scam, your feelings are clearly overshadowed by sympathy for the development, calling it a scam doesn't indicate that the developers are bad, or so that the development team itself is bad. What they did was sell the game under the "misunderstanding" of what would be included.

Whether they intentionally "miscommunicated" or didn't doesn't matter, it especially doesn't matter because we don't know that, anything beyond that is just subjective or objective opinion and I quite frankly don't care for any of that. To a greater degree I also don't care for your feelings on what you think happened, than I do for practical reasons of what HAS and HAD happened. with the facts and the dictionary validation of that.

 

[eddiemccandless]

In that case, Chronicles Of Elyria and of Kings and Men were just miscommunication and misunderstanding.

It's a marketing scam, your feelings are clearly overshadowed by sympathy for the development, calling it a scam doesn't indicate that the developers are bad, or so that the development team itself is bad. What they did was sell the game under the "misunderstanding" of what would be included.

Whether they intentionally "miscommunicated" or didn't doesn't matter, it especially doesn't matter because we don't know that, anything beyond that is just subjective or objective opinion and I quite frankly don't care for any of that. To a greater degree I also don't care for your feelings on what you think happened, than I do for practical reasons of what HAS and HAD happened. with the facts and the dictionary validation of that.

While you on the other hand are, I am sure, not letting your frustration and emotions play any role in what you think happened

You don't have a scam unless the misleading was intentional. Most importantly, and the thing that makes this thread frankly ridiculous, let's say that it's a scam. What are you gonna do about it? Sue them? Good luck with that. Not buy any more of their games? Well guess what, neither am I, and neither are a lot of players on this forum. We didn't need this flame bait thread to come to that conclusion. What is this Opus Magnus of pointless arguments and bickering, page 34 and counting, accomplishing, other than help kill time during covid I guess?

 

[Roy1012]

EDIT: After scrolling up and reading a bit more again, I see that there is thought that I think that people who have played Warband and like Bannerlord are stupid. I did not make this argument, but I do agree with it. People who prefer Bannerlord to Warband are dumb and I will argue to the death about why they are stupid. @Roy1012

You cannot call people stupid just because they liked a game. Shame on you. You have the right to not like the game and me to like it. We can share our views and maybe came to a conclusion. However, you cannot insult people just because of their thoughts about a simple toy (video game). Warband was the first game that I actually paid and I enjoyed playing bannerlord (not as much as I expected though). I am really sad that you can easily insult people, shame on you.

I can do whatever the hell I want, so long as it doesn’t break the ToS of the website/forum. The shame is on you for preferring an inferior product. You are free to go against the grain of what everyone else in your situation believes, as far as I know you live in a free country. However, when everybody around you is crazy, maybe you are the crazy one. It is just leaving me dumbfounded that people could enjoy bannerlord after knowing what warband is. You are entitled to your opinion, sure, but that doesn’t mean you are free from the criticism you deserve. Like, you are welcome to enjoy poop flavored ice cream, that doesn’t mean we won’t **** on you (pun intended) for doing so.

 

[julijs]

What is this Opus Magnus of pointless arguments and bickering, page 34 and counting, accomplishing, other than help kill time during covid I guess?

What are you? the Opus Magnus of holier-than-thou, of course that's what it is, every thread this year has been a flame-bait of Taleworlds in order to help kill time during COVID-19.

No ones going to do anything to Talewords and everyone knows that, but it's definitely more sane to argue here for the sake of it, than to even think about loading up the barren game that is Bannerlord.

 

[eddiemccandless]

What are you?

I am, of course, a miniature giant space hamster.

No ones going to do anything to Talewords and everyone knows that, but it's definitely more sane to argue here for the sake of it, than to even think about loading up the barren game that is Bannerlord.

Cool.

 

[Kentucky 『 ＨＥＩＧＵＩ 』 James]

Exactly. But thats my point. The majority doesn't want complex and deep gaming experiences. They want (mostly) quick gratification to relax.
Therefore it is advisable for maximizing profit to make games which go that route.

But if people don't know how complex a game is until they buy it, and the simplicity of a game is rarely ever advertised, what's the point in making games more streamlined? Does it really sell more?

Is what I just stated not the definition of what they did? scam: you're selling a product under a false pretence to receive money (sales).

If it isn't the word scam or grift, then what it is? what would your definition of being sold a game on the false truths of it including something, "overselling" those features and then have them not included in the final product without notice, or shall I say only after its release, no matter the intention, good or bad and even sympathetic.

While I think the word scam is too much of a loaded word to clearly define, I definitely think it is a massive stretch to compare it to phone scams or identity fraud or any of the other kinds of theft most people commonly associate with scams. I have never heard of a company of 100+ people intentionally stealing from or defrauding people, nor do I think it is really possible.

It's a marketing scam, your feelings are clearly overshadowed by sympathy for the development, calling it a scam doesn't indicate that the developers are bad, or so that the development team itself is bad. What they did was sell the game under the "misunderstanding" of what would be included.

I hate to break it to you but almost all marketing, not just in games, is about selling you stuff that doesn't exist. There are regulations in place to prevent outright fabrications, but in the case of video games where the development process is still ongoing during most of the PR cycle, there is no way to guarantee that something will be in the final game.

Personally I think that even if Taleworlds had included everything they advertised, the game would still have been bad. The main issue isn't a nebulous "lack of content" or whatever, it's awful game design, horrible pacing, and a total lack of focus. Just adding more mechanics and features can't fix that.

 

[Roy1012]

Personally I think that even if Taleworlds had included everything they advertised, the game would still have been bad. The main issue isn't a nebulous "lack of content" or whatever, it's awful game design, horrible pacing, and a total lack of focus. Just adding more mechanics and features can't fix that.

I think all the features they advertised/are in warband would help with some of the issues, but you are right to point out that these underlying problems would not yet have been addressed. TBH, if they were, I think the other stuff would have fallen into place, and people would not be complaining as much. Still complaining, just not to the same degree as the anger is now. It comes down to the management, which have clearly bungled the game, they would not have had a decade long development if this wasn't the case.

That being said though, what is the solution? Do we really believe that after 10 years they can fix what they've done? Obviously Bannerlord is a sinking ship with thousands of holes that need to be patched up, but even if they can, will they even be able to right the course? TBH, I don't know, but I'm not sure it is possible. If they have been on the path of terrible direction for 10+ years, I don't know if they can fix it now, or are even willing. They think, because of the financial success of the game, that they are doing it well. Even if they don't, I don't know if they are capable of pulling themselves together to get a good game plan together. It just seems unlikely to me, but we can still have hope and keep complaining in the hope that they will do so.