Just nerf ranged damage by 30%

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We'll be bringing it up again at the next player feedback meeting and seeing what our stance on this is.


Sounds like a nice idea.

A damage slider is not the answer and opens up lots of other issues. The short answer is armor values just don't cut it as they are too low for the damage values. While the damage values are fine for unarmored player/NPCs based on hit point values which is a 100 baseline without bonus.

Exabit A

a polearm for example that does 150 damage

Exabit B

A high end 200K body armor that gives 50 protection

Looking at the example without any speed bonus or handling discounts it doesn't really matter if they have armor on. An unarmored recruit will die just as easy as a lord with the best armor. This is just one example, but is essentially the armor system in a nutshell currently. Will it change the way battles feel? ... yes but for the better imo.

I have been modding for more than 20 years with the Total war series and created mods like Shieldwall for Thrones of Britannia. This is nothing more than an issue with under valued armor rating system, range is superior do to armor not stopping enough damage. I have doubled armor ratings and legionnaires will make it across the map with some loses but will cleanup in melee against sharpshooters. Ran multiple test and the results were consistent.
 
It is true.

And melee units are garbage not only bevouse they are just worse in fights:

BUT melee infantry has more problems:

1) Battles become endless kite game. Enemy runs away from you, you chase him. And it never ends, becouse archers are faster. And it is so fkn boring.
But when you have tons of archers - enemy forced to atack you.
2) Battles just dont want to end, becouse this few horse archers dont want to surrender. And again melee infantry sucks in this situation.
3) If your PC cant run 2500 vs 2500 you will face reinforcment system. And it sucks. Melee infantry is just AWFUL in such battles.
Becouse they are doomed to go into enemy spawn (becouse enemy with more archers will just camp spawn) and die surrounded by enemy reinforcements. And if you are not mounted - you will die with them
4) Khuzaits

Yep, infantry is not bad at all against melee cavalry, but it actually sucks against missile cavalry. Pick 100 legionaries against 100 Banner Knights in custom battle, use a deep formation, shield wall to resist the charge and then attack in line formation. Repeat every time Banner Knights charge. It is actually quite easy to defeat melee cavalry with infantry in this game, and it is even easier if you mix legionaries with elite menavlation units.

Which makes infantry totally hopeless in SP are the missile units which have been insanely OP since the release. Missile cavalry is especially destructive for infantry and there is no anything you can do. I have played some campaigns role playing as a Viking mercenary with tons of sea riders, and it has been possible to win against every kingdom with this army composition but khuzaits.
 
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@Callum How about an option to reduce damage all around the board? I'm sure even such an option would solve most complaints. I don't want an option to reduce damage to my own troops, game is easy as it is. But an option to reduce damage all across the board (reduced to 25%, 50%, 75% or 100% for ALL troops, ally and enemy) would be pretty good. Players would be able to choose their own pace of battle. Like others said, nobody is asking about reducing ranged damage because AI is too OP, but because the PLAYER is OP (Player isn't forced to have %melee troops, cavalry etc. He can get 100% ranged troops and own the AI). When I play I have to handicap myself and not upgrade into any ranged troops just because I know it would make battles very easy.

Ranged troops upgrade really easily too. They don't have any danger of dying in battle. It's way easier to raise elite ranged troops than melee troops, by a huge margin. From a gameplay perspective ranged troops are just way too effective in comparison to melee troops, that's all, and we want an option to make battles last slightly longer (by reducing damage/buffing armor) so that ranged troops don't feel as effective in comparison to melee troops. Even if you nerf both ranged and melee damage, the ranged troops will feel the nerf more because they have the ranged advantage, so it's a good thing either way I'd say, so if you really, really are against buffing armor, I would like to experiment with such an option at least.

The truth is that it is an issue and it's been an issue since the beginning of EA, when I found out that recruiting only crossbowmen lets me defeat armies twice my size 2 times in a row at least. It's actually impossible to do that with an army of only infantry. Plus, getting tier 5 infantry is hard, while getting t5 crossbowmen is the easiest thing.
A slider to reduce all damage across the board will fix the problem of battles ending too quickly, but it won't fix:

* Archers being way better than melee. Right now archers can do just as much, or more, damage at range than melee users can. If you reduce damage across the board, archers will still be doing just as much, or more, damage at range than melee users, so they will still be the much better choice. The only way to fix this is to specifically make ranged damage worse against armor.

* Armor not being worth its cost. Reducing damage across the board will, if anything, make the tiny margin by which armor currently reduces damage even smaller.

* Damage done being totally unrealistic. An across-the-board damage slider will only let you shift the problem from ranged damage being unrealistically high through armor, to melee damage being unrealistically low.

Therefore, no offense, but such a slider is a waste of time which won't "solve most complaints"- if anything the complaining will get louder when people realize it doesn't solve the problem at all, and it will take TW's efforts away from fixing the REAL problem.

The specific issue here is that ranged damage done through armor is far too high, and (most types of) melee damage done through armor is moderately too high. Fixing this will fix the bullet point issues above, as well as fixing battles ending too fast. @Callum

Just to reiterate so we're all very clear: a slider to reduce all damage will not fix archers being stronger than melee units, they will still be comparatively stronger.
 
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Literally just take all the armour in game and jack them up to be higher. No need for sliders or anything.
This is the best soultution imo though the values of armor would need to be recalulated. With the mod where I just doubled ratings for everything basic stuff was like 30-40k and highend stuff was from 250-750K.
 
A slider to reduce all damage across the board will fix the problem of battles ending too quickly, but it won't fix:

* Archers being way better than melee. Right now archers can do just as much, or more, damage at range than melee users can. If you reduce damage across the board, archers will still be doing just as much, or more, damage at range than melee users, so they will still be the much better choice. The only way to fix this is to specifically make ranged damage worse against armor.

* Armor not being worth its cost. Reducing damage across the board will, if anything, make the tiny margin by which armor currently reduces damage even smaller.

* Damage done being totally unrealistic. An across-the-board damage slider will only let you shift the problem from ranged damage being unrealistically high through armor, to melee damage being unrealistically low.

Therefore, no offense, but such a slider is a waste of time which won't "solve most complaints"- if anything the complaining will get louder when people realize it doesn't solve the problem at all, and it will take TW's efforts away from fixing the REAL problem.

The specific issue here is that ranged damage done through armor is far too high, and (most types of) melee damage done through armor is moderately too high. Fixing this will fix the bullet point issues above, as well as fixing battles ending too fast. @Callum

Just to reiterate so we're all very clear: a slider to reduce all damage will not fix archers being stronger than melee units, they will still be comparatively stronger.
Totally agree with this. I find armor ok against most of melee weapons (some blunt and big weapons are too good fulfilling their roles though), and the main issue about armor is it does not protect what it should against ranged units. Not sure about this, but devs are probably aware of this and currently working on a fix for that. I read something about this some time ago in multiplayer forum.
 
Multi-player and single player balnce should probaly be different. I pretty much desagree with most mp balance sugestions for single player. What the mp crowd likes and what sp players seeking a more realistic experince are polar opposites.

Here is another blatant issue with armor values not being ok, you have arm and leg armor that barely give any protection. The top grade equipment gives you about 20 armor rating which is next to nothing. That barely makes a dent in the raw damage that top weapons deal which is 80-140 damage. The math just does not add up and why elite infantry go down so easy in melee and under missle fire.
 
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Multi-player and single player balnce should probaly be different. I pretty much desagree with most mp balance sugestions for single player. What the mp crowd likes and what sp players seeking a more realistic experince are polar opposites.
Yeah to try and balance single player vs multi player is too much of a headache and I'm not sure why TW would even worry about it.

Here is another blatant issue with armor values not being ok, you have arm and leg armor that barely give any protection. The top grade equipment gives you about 20 armor rating which is next to nothing. That barely makes a dent in the raw damage that top weapons deal which is 80-140 damage. The math just does not add up an why elite infantry go down so easy in melee and under missle fire.
(y)
 
Either Callum is being completely oblivious or Taleworlds just doesn't care or doesn't agree with people on the forums. I honestly don't think they will ever look at armor damage calculations besides making a few small tweaks. If they felt like it was something that needed to be addressed they would've done so a long time ago. It's so frustrating to have to use a mod to make battles semi-enjoyable.
We'll see what this feedback meeting brings... unfortunately I won't be holding my breath though. I have a feeling that to the big Indian chief a proper documentation will not be prepared with comparisons of what RBM and other mods are proposing to elicit eventual approval. Let's hope I'm wrong.

I no longer mean the formula, but the whole damage-protection system (how different weapons behave with different armor materials) must be comprehensively revised and of course the solution does not lie in the implementation of a ****ing slider bar...Very much in agreement with Five Bucks' comment.

---
SP and MP in terms of balance must be balanced absolutely separately. Even within MP, we have made them aware, loud and clear, of the urgency of balancing Captain mode completely independently of the other pvp modes.

SP=slow pace
MP=fast pace
 
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A slider to reduce all damage across the board will fix the problem of battles ending too quickly, but it won't fix:

* Archers being way better than melee. Right now archers can do just as much, or more, damage at range than melee users can. If you reduce damage across the board, archers will still be doing just as much, or more, damage at range than melee users, so they will still be the much better choice. The only way to fix this is to specifically make ranged damage worse against armor.

* Armor not being worth its cost. Reducing damage across the board will, if anything, make the tiny margin by which armor currently reduces damage even smaller.

* Damage done being totally unrealistic. An across-the-board damage slider will only let you shift the problem from ranged damage being unrealistically high through armor, to melee damage being unrealistically low.

Therefore, no offense, but such a slider is a waste of time which won't "solve most complaints"- if anything the complaining will get louder when people realize it doesn't solve the problem at all, and it will take TW's efforts away from fixing the REAL problem.

The specific issue here is that ranged damage done through armor is far too high, and (most types of) melee damage done through armor is moderately too high. Fixing this will fix the bullet point issues above, as well as fixing battles ending too fast. @Callum

Just to reiterate so we're all very clear: a slider to reduce all damage will not fix archers being stronger than melee units, they will still be comparatively stronger.
I'm not suggesting this to be the only fix to the problem. I think it would just be a good option in the game. Many complaints were that battles end too quickly, units die too fast (including the player), so even fixing that is nice, isn't it? With reduced damage some players won't even feel the need of armor getting buffed anymore, because the numerous complaints are that they are getting one-shotted/rocks deal way too much damage etc. And I know most don't like playing on easy difficulty, so everyone getting affected by this change is the best option in this regard.

What I'm getting from armor not being buffed still, despite the numerous requests, is that TW really wants it the way it currently is, so I'm not expecting it to change significantly no matter the requests at this point. That's why I thought that at least a middle-ground option could positively affect some players experiences. Hell, there can even be options for increasing armor values, I mean, if they made an "advanced options" that can cater to players needs more intricately, they can have the game they want to make while players get to choose their own experience as well. Just brainstorming some ideas here, nothing more.

I find that it makes sense that archers are stronger than melee units at range, so that isn't the problem for me. The problem is that they're just way stronger than them at range, to the point that only recruiting ranged units is actually a viable "strategy". Plus, they're not all that bad in melee either (giving them huge shields or two-handed weapons is the real problem here imo, because even by buffing armor this won't be solved). If you reduce damage all around the board at least, then their ranged advantage would surely become more insignificant (which is their main problem), as in melee they will *also* deal reduced damage. The main problem currently is that ranged deals so much damage at range that melee units don't get a chance to get close, they die before that and then they get overpowered in melee. So at least that will change, for both unarmored and armored units even (which buffing armor wouldn't do both of these).

While I do agree that armor needs some improvements, at this point I'm expecting only small tweaks to it which is why I suggested an option like that. I don't imagine that whatever will be improved will satisfy what players are expecting at this point. So why not add an option that can go just a little bit further than TW will willingly change? Even putting the option at 75% reduced damage all around the board should make battles a bit slower and overall improve player experience by units needing 1 more hit in general to be downed. This won't feel like melee is unrealistically weak, just slower. Even if you buff armor, unarmored units will still disappear from existence on hit, so small battles like looters etc will still be the classic: get close, looters die in 2 seconds, looters run away. It's so anticlimatic that I'd be very happy with an option to at least improve this by 1 single hit.

My main points are: 1) Yes, make armor improvements (but that alone won't solve some of the current issues). 2) Make ranged fighters worse in melee (remove shields and two handed weaponry, bring back knives). 3) Damage slider can't hurt, it might even be the best option we currently have for slowing down battles, as TW's design choice is to have fast-paced battles so we most likely won't see this changing otherwise.
 
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If you give me the choice between 200 imperial archers and 200 imperial legionaries, I'm picking the archers. The T2 unit over the T5.

There's a big problem here. I also have way more fun with archers, because I can actually micro them in ways that drastically change their performance.
 
Multi-player and single player balnce should probaly be different. I pretty much desagree with most mp balance sugestions for single player. What the mp crowd likes and what sp players seeking a more realistic experince are polar opposites.

While we do try to keep some level of consistency between the two, we do of course balance MP separately from SP.
 
I'm not suggesting this to be the only fix to the problem. I think it would just be a good option in the game. Many complaints were that battles end too quickly, units die too fast (including the player), so even fixing that is nice, isn't it?
Sure it would improve that, but it will take time and focus away from fixing the root of the problem - armor - and create increased confusion in feedback when everyone is working on different damage settings; it's already confusing enough that there are idiots who give feedback saying "no, armor seems fine, I can get hit all day and not die" when they're playing on 1/3 damage to player settings.
With reduced damage some players won't even feel the need of armor getting buffed anymore, because the numerous complaints are that they are getting one-shotted/rocks deal way too much damage etc.
A few, maybe. The majority of players will still be very annoyed, because there are plenty of other complaints other than that which the damage slider won't fix, as I already said.
* It won't fix archers being significantly better than other types of unit. Therefore, it won't fix the tactical and balance issues that causes.
* It won't fix the problem of nobles, companions and higher-tier units not performing significantly better than lower-tier units.
* It won't fix damage values being unrealistic- it will make it worse, if you use it to turn down damage and as a result some melee damage which is already quite low then doesn't even scratch the enemy.
The worst-case scenario is that someone at TW thinks the same as you: "Oh, we put a damage slider in. I guess we don't need to fix armor anymore, they can just turn down the damage if it's too high." And then all those problems above will remain. So your suggestion could actually be harmful instead of helpful.
What I'm getting from armor not being buffed still, despite the numerous requests, is that TW really wants it the way it currently is (...) and that they like fast-paced battles so this is why the armor system isn't being changed
I used to think that armor wasn't being changed just because they like it the way it is, but I asked Duh_ and he said: "not to my knowledge, We are discussing armor and how to improve it." Some of Callum's statements also seem to indicate that TW is receptive to changing armor.
I find that it makes sense that archers are stronger than melee units at range, so that isn't the problem for me. The problem is that they're just way stronger than them at range, to the point that only recruiting ranged units is actually a viable "strategy". Plus, they're not all that bad in melee either.
Agreed.
If you reduce damage all around the board at least, then their ranged advantage would surely become more insignificant (which is their main problem), as in melee they will *also* deal reduced damage. The main problem currently is that ranged deals so much damage at range that melee units don't get a chance to get close, they die before that and then they get overpowered in melee. So at least that will change.
Yes, it could make some small positive impact, but definitely wouldn't be enough to fully solve the problem. It would just create new problems.

For example, right now Sharpshooters take 2 shots to kill an armored troop. They can shoot about 6 times across a battlefield before a melee attacker can reach them. A sword-using melee T5 unit can kill an armored troop in, say, 8 slashes, which is kind of realistic for slashing attacks vs. mail.
Let's say we used your slider to reduce all damage to 25%, and also, as you suggested, took away sharpshooters' good armor and melee fighting ability.
So now, a Sharpshooter takes 8 shots to kill an armored melee troop; this is enough that some melee troops can now close the distance to fight and have a good chance of winning. But now, the sword-using melee unit takes 32 slashes to kill an armored enemy. His sword damage was debatably realistic before, now it's made of Nerf foam. And they have to get into melee range to do it, and their attacks can be blocked by both weapons and shields (while arrows can only be blocked by shields). So you've made your melee damage ridiculously weak and ranged infantry are still way better by comparison.
Even if you buff armor, unarmored units will still disappear from existence on hit, so small battles like looters etc will still be the classic: get close, looters die in 2 seconds, looters run away. It's so anticlimatic that I'd be very happy with an option to at least improve this by 1 single hit. Yes, make armor improvements (but that alone won't solve some of the current issues).
Small battles like looters against a high/mid-level player not being challenging isn't a problem to be solved. It's a good thing. The player should feel powerful once they have good weapons and good skills. If they want a challenge, they should not be fighting the weakest enemies in the game-- they should be moving on to more challenging, armored enemies. Looters should be an ez win if a high level player decides to waste time chasing them down.
When it comes to low level, keep in mind that weaker weapons+lower weapon skills = less damage, even against unarmored enemies. I don't see unarmored units being able to be slaughtered by good archers as an issue.
However, looters routing super easily is indeed a problem, which can be fixed by changing the morale system.

Fixing armor, and altering morale, will fix all of the problems you mentioned and plenty of others.
 
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I used to think that armor wasn't being changed just because they like it the way it is, but I asked Duh_ and he said: "not to my knowledge, We are discussing armor and how to improve it." Some of Callum's statements also seem to indicate that TW is receptive to changing armor.
Fixing armor, and altering morale, will fix all of the problems you mentioned and plenty of others.
If armor is going to be improved then that is good news, then all we have to do is wait and see.

About the morale, I do hope they'll fix it. But I feel like they made this change on purpose and they want bandits to run instantly so I'm not very optimistic about it. That is why I'd like units to die a little bit slower, so it doesn't feel as anticlimatic as it does now.

Overall I understand your concerns. I was debating the same thing with myself before expressing the idea, that maybe if I give this suggestion they will just implement this slider and forget about the issues. Of course that is not what I wish for. But seeing that nothing has been done just got me thinking of some alternative. All I wish for is some kind of solution (even if temporary), and if implementing a slider is not that big of a hassle then I don't see why not. If Duh said that they are discussing how to improve armor then I'd think we wouldn't have to worry about it, that will still come. But his statement doesn't imply any kind of urgency, so we don't even know how many more months from now armor will see any kind of improvement.

I understand and agree that the slider shouldn't be a replacement for improving armor. I just think it would be a good thing to have for those who want a slower paced battle and more time slashing away at enemies on foot currently. All in all I'm pretty neutral about it, I can't know if it's a good or bad thing before testing it, yet I do fancy the idea.

I also want to remind that companions really don't feel useful/unique in battle. I haven't used companions for more than half a year at least. Even if they improve armor, having T5 troops with top tier armor just makes companions feel a bit pointless. When they do improve armor I wish for a nerf for T5 armors (a bit, to maybe around 40 or so armor) , and make high tier armors for lords/player/companions have the highest stats so they are the most durable and distinguished in battle. There's too many cheap highly armored units right now imo, there is just not much incentive to hire companions to fight.
 
I also want to remind that companions really don't feel useful/unique in battle.

Part of the reason for that is the battle sizes. It was a lot easier to have companions standout in a 62 on 54 fight when they each get three kills on average. It is much harder to see their impact when you're fighting 620 on 540 and they each get... like six or seven.
 
We'll see what this feedback meeting brings... unfortunately I won't be holding my breath though. I have a feeling that to the big Indian chief a proper documentation will not be prepared with comparisons of what RBM and other mods are proposing to elicit eventual approval. Let's hope I'm wrong.
At this point I'm too jaded to actually believe anything substantive will come out of it. They maybe make a few small changes and move on, as I said if they really were concerned about this it would've been addressed a long time ago.

I no longer mean the formula, but the whole damage-protection system (how different weapons behave with different armor materials) must be comprehensively revised and of course the solution does not lie in the implementation of a ****ing slider bar...Very much in agreement with Five Bucks' comment.
I think many long time M&B fans agree. It's one of the things that you really notice once you get a few hours into the game.
SP and MP in terms of balance must be balanced absolutely separately. Even within MP, we have made them aware, loud and clear, of the urgency of balancing Captain mode completely independently of the other pvp modes.

SP=slow pace
MP=fast pace
(y)

While we do try to keep some level of consistency between the two, we do of course balance MP separately from SP.
Why do you guys feel the need for consistency? I'm sure there are guys who are both sp and mp but not that many and honestly I'm sure they understand that the speed of sp and mp should be differently paced. I find it hard to believe that there are any real armor differences between mp and sp at least any that are substantial.

It's pretty obvious that you guys want battles over is 5 minutes or less and most long time fans of this series want battles to last longer because it's impossible to have any real input or control of your army once they clash. We don't need Total War levels of control but there has to be a sweet spot between "fast action paced" and 30+ minute battles. The player should always feel like he/she can actually see and react to battles as they unfold ie being an army commander.
What we were hoping for:
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What we got:
8347552988_ed9bf9e0cb_b.jpg
 
I'm not saying I agree that a blanket damage nerf is the best option, but it's something that can easily be tested (with dnSpy) to see how it would affect battles and different troop types in order to know for sure how it would feel.

In the method CalculateRawDamageNew there is a value you could simply change from 100 to 50 to halve damage from all sources (or to 70 for a 30% reduction, etc):
ZQJw4.png

You can see how that change affects the curves for damage inflicted after armor reduction here. Or if you prefer to see it presented as a percentage of overall damage absorbed by armor, here.

Some of the results might be counter intuitive to what you would expect because of the way armor can negate some amount of cut and pierce damage that falls below a threshold. For instance, just from a quick test, 150 Elite Menavliatons absolutely murdered 150 Palatines because the Palatines couldn't dish out enough damage on the approach.

Unfortunately, I think this change also reduces the amount of XP you'll get from combat, since the damage you inflict serves as the basis for XP gains.
 
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We'll be bringing it up again at the next player feedback meeting and seeing what our stance on this is.


Sounds like a nice idea.

Thanks.

Part of the problem is that armor is too weak.

Another problem is that archers are too strong relative to melee damage.
 
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