Bannerlord was a grift

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It's always like this, someone creates a thread with a valid complaint about something in the game wanting to draw attention and discussion to the matter.

We have a few good pages of feedback before the white-knights come charging downhill shouting "it's not that bad!", "i like it as is!", "give them time!", "make better yourself then!", etc etc etc

Proceeds to have 10-20 pages of pointless discussions with them that bury the thread and all valid points people made at first.

New thread about another valid complaint > everything repeats
Wasn’t really a valid compliant. Somewhere in those 10-20 pages I labeled out why it really wasn’t. This thread started out by calling the game a scam and I responded to some of the arguments made. Following that, the whole conversation devolved and it wasn’t me who did that. I can assure you that this wasn’t to bury the points, as it is pretty easy to find them.
 
Wasn’t really a valid compliant. Somewhere in those 10-20 pages I labeled out why it really wasn’t. This thread started out by calling the game a scam and I responded to some of the arguments made. Following that, the whole conversation devolved and it wasn’t me who did that. I can assure you that this wasn’t to bury the points, as it is pretty easy to find them.
oh i agree that this thread in specific isn't, i was talking more in general about other feedback threads that always gets buried in pointless discussions with whiteknights.

I disagree with OP that the game is a grift and we even had devs commenting on here a while ago, i believe it was Mexxico with a very indepth explanation of his point of view of things.

To me i believe the game was just too ambitious for an inexperienced management, things got out of control, the game got stuck in dev hell and they had to start axing things left and right or the game would never see the light of day.
 
It's pretty obvious what happened with bannerlord, they've been developing it for like 8 years. They realized the game is going nowhere so they finally release it in early access to cash in on some kind of revenue then they ditch bannerlord and give it 3 lines of codes as an update every few months while working on a console release to maximize profits while also creating dlcs for bannerlord and working on their new space game. A grift if I've ever seen one but the only people to blame are the ones who buy early access games, after bannerlord I don't buy early access games anymore.
 
It's always like this, someone creates a thread with a valid complaint about something in the game wanting to draw attention and discussion to the matter.

We have a few good pages of feedback before the white-knights come charging downhill shouting "it's not that bad!", "i like it as is!", "give them time!", "make better yourself then!", etc etc etc

Proceeds to have 10-20 pages of pointless discussions with them that bury the thread and all valid points people made at first.

New thread about another valid complaint > everything repeats
I would say this is slightly correct. This thread has been derailed from the original intent multiple times (including now), however I think it’s all within the spirit of blackpilling bannerlord and being open to all complaints about the games development and current state. All in all I really don’t mind if it is “derailed” so long as more attention is being brought to Taleworlds attention that change needs to happen.
 
Without a shadow of a doubt, the fact that Bannerlord was barely an upgrade over Warband, and frankly missed a lot of the features of it, made the whole thing feel like a joke or worse, yeah a scam.

I think there's a possibility the developers aren't good enough to do more, but to be honest, that's a terrible excuse given what is possible elsewhere on smaller budgets.
 
I think there's a possibility the developers aren't good enough to do more, but to be honest, that's a terrible excuse given what is possible elsewhere on smaller budgets.
Entirely not the case IMO (the first part about their skills).

I'd say some of the lords in this kingdom do not have enough influence points to turn the tides of the internal votings. There are also some constraints related to the current game state they find hard to detour. Who am I to judge if it is too hard to implement, but modders... argh...:: silent knife movement in the dark:::...

Environment (game in its current stay) may lack flexibility for some features to be implemented, but foremost it seems there is no clear roadmap on what's planned and what is not in the future of the EA.

There is yet another option, but it requires optimism and trusting which I currently lack.
 
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Without a shadow of a doubt, the fact that Bannerlord was barely an upgrade over Warband, and frankly missed a lot of the features of it, made the whole thing feel like a joke or worse, yeah a scam.

I think there's a possibility the developers aren't good enough to do more, but to be honest, that's a terrible excuse given what is possible elsewhere on smaller budgets.
I wouldn’t call it a scam, as mentioned in the OP that could get you in some trouble. Still as you mention, with what companies are able to do on smaller budgets, it’s kinda ridiculous.
 
It's okay to call Bannerlord a scam. I am no Socialist, but people have given a lot of slack to disingenuous practices of companies and corporations for far too long. They are not your friends, and will always scam you if you let them. Popular voice and enough consumer rejection is the only thing that you can do to make them back down. But TW proves that they can take the heat by simply ignoring it, and it seems the only thing they listen to is when there is a massive enough backlash over very specific things.
 
It's okay to call Bannerlord a scam. I am no Socialist, but people have given a lot of slack to disingenuous practices of companies and corporations for far too long. They are not your friends, and will always scam you if you let them. Popular voice and enough consumer rejection is the only thing that you can do to make them back down. But TW proves that they can take the heat by simply ignoring it, and it seems the only thing they listen to is when there is a massive enough backlash over very specific things.
Too be blunt thats a statement that could get you in trouble.
Pending the law or laws that regulates the forums and or your national laws.

Calling something a scam that clearly, is liable action in most countries just saying.
As in that Taleworlds was directly trying to scam you or us.


Besides the state of EA is unknown in terms of duration, so who's to say what it is when its out of it in 5 yrs lol..(at this pace..)
 
First of all, I don't think anyone at Taleworlds anticipated this kind of success, this early. I can't imagine the pressure, to be honest - they were probably expecting maybe 200k units, enough to keep them going for a year or two.

It's a curse, in a way, but I'm glad of the work they've done since, though, by god, is it going slow.

Keep in mind that any kind of entertainment product is a high risk, high-reward endeavor. Gone With the Wind cost $3m to make and grossed over $390 million.

1. Financial breakdown - your salary numbers are pretty spot-on, given the Glassdoor data, though the average is likely higher.

However, you underestimate the costs of doing business a great deal - your $5000/m, $60k/y figure is just way off, especially for a company that size.

Taleworld's HQ building ( https://translate.google.com/transl...com.tr/en/application/faq&prev=search&pto=aue
) has a rent of 54 turkish lira/square meter and operating costs of 26 tl/square meter (so, 80 in total). Good rule of thumb is 10 square meters per employee - so, that's 800 TL/m per employee, or 104,800tl/m. In USD, that's $11,528 per month, just to be in the building. Not actually that much in terms of their revenue, but still.

There's also fees for software (probably HUGE), telecom costs, financing, various hardware, and all sorts of other things that go into making an office work.

Also, I've no idea what HR/benefits costs are like in Turkey; a really quick reading puts the employer share of payroll taxes around 20% of the gross wage.
 
Too be blunt thats a statement that could get you in trouble.
Pending the law or laws that regulates the forums and or your national laws.

Calling something a scam that clearly, is liable action in most countries just saying.
As in that Taleworlds was directly trying to scam you or us.


Besides the state of EA is unknown in terms of duration, so who's to say what it is when its out of it in 5 yrs lol..(at this pace..)
Using your logic, calling your government "criminals" should also get you into trouble. A person randomly touting hyperbole isn't a legal accusation. As I've said before, I'm not literally defining the game as a scam, or in my other use of the word scam. It wasn't a con artist's swindle attempt. But to say that the game was deceptively marketed and presented, and promises were not kept, and that the game is a giant disappointment compared to what it was hyped up to be, therefore using a blunt term to describe the actions done, is not unreasonable. A company tricking you for profit isn't necessarily a textbook example of a proper scam, but is it still extremely dishonest and worthy of loathing? Hell yeah it is, and calling that a scam in the general sense is something that is appropriate.
 
Using your logic, calling your government "criminals" should also get you into trouble. A person randomly touting hyperbole isn't a legal accusation. As I've said before, I'm not literally defining the game as a scam, or in my other use of the word scam. It wasn't a con artist's swindle attempt. But to say that the game was deceptively marketed and presented, and promises were not kept, and that the game is a giant disappointment compared to what it was hyped up to be, therefore using a blunt term to describe the actions done, is not unreasonable. A company tricking you for profit isn't necessarily a textbook example of a proper scam, but is it still extremely dishonest and worthy of loathing? Hell yeah it is, and calling that a scam in the general sense is something that is appropriate.
The problem is that I do not think that their methods have been dishonest, its your subjecte experience.
And your statement about it being so, should it be run for a trial, it would be slander etc.
Thus if it was run for a court, I dont think you can prove that their intent was dishonest etc, and you would be liable.
Pretty damn hard to prove such a claim you come with, thus be more careful with the wording is all I say(like the original poster was on in the start).

Lets face it its EA, which they where very upfront about, and even urged ppl who wanted a finished product not to buy in.

Lets end this(about the legatlity of statements etc) before it turns into a stupid pissing contest, as I have no desire to go into semantics of the laws etc, just thread carefully when makeing such accusitions is all I'm saying.

Lets face it its EA, which they where very upfront about, and even urged ppl who wanted a finished product not to buy in.

Have the development pace been bad vs what we've wanted, perhaps. (covid?)
Have the lack of roadmap which is easy to find and spot been hurting, imo - yes.
Lack of communication is my biggest issue with the company.(or easy to acess-communication).
Some dev answer it on a random post about the issue, and says it will be fixed, or its found on a 240 pages big "thing to do" with zillions of post which makes it hard to keep track etc or makes it feel "daunting" to even look at.
Their lack of communication was expected perhaps when it was 2-3 ppl makeing the game, not now they are a fairly large studio, they need much more active communication about goals, plans and updates.
Besides the format they have choosen which imo dont work very well.
(the info you get in those are often good by all means, but they are released days/weeks after we've already been able to experience them in the current live beta etc).
 
The problem is that I do not think that their methods have been dishonest, its your subjecte experience.
And your statement about it being so, should it be run for a trial, it would be slander etc.
Thus if it was run for a court, I dont think you can prove that their intent was dishonest etc, and you would be liable.
Pretty damn hard to prove such a claim you come with, thus be more careful with the wording is all I say(like the original poster was on in the start).
I highly doubt that would qualify as libel, it's name-calling and hyperbole. Again, I'm not saying the game is an actual intended scam. It's heavy language of disapproval. If I falsely described their exact intent and said that they fully intended to make the game a legally defined scam and detailed that, and provided made-up information calling it "proof" that would probably be liable.
Lets end this(about the legatlity of statements etc) before it turns into a stupid pissing contest, as I have no desire to go into semantics of the laws etc, just thread carefully when makeing such accusitions is all I'm saying.
Sure.
Lets face it its EA, which they where very upfront about, and even urged ppl who wanted a finished product not to buy in.

Have the development pace been bad vs what we've wanted, perhaps. (covid?)
Have the lack of roadmap which is easy to find and spot been hurting, imo - yes.
Lack of communication is my biggest issue with the company.(or easy to acess-communication).
Some dev answer it on a random post about the issue, and says it will be fixed, or its found on a 240 pages big "thing to do" with zillions of post which makes it hard to keep track etc or makes it feel "daunting" to even look at.
Their lack of communication was expected perhaps when it was 2-3 ppl makeing the game, not now they are a fairly large studio, they need much more active communication about goals, plans and updates.
Besides the format they have choosen which imo dont work very well.
(the info you get in those are often good by all means, but they are released days/weeks after we've already been able to experience them in the current live beta etc).
It is EA, but EA is most of the time a dishonest venture. A developer makes grand sweeping plans, hypes it up, sells the unfinished product, and then runs off with the money and the game half-finished. This here does not seem different. I shouldn't have expected better with TW. I guess I respected them quite a bit.

You can click on the devs' profiles and find all their recently posted messages in a nice list. If it's dev information you're looking for, that's much nicer than scouring each and every page of every thread. Still an unprofessional format of communicating, but those guys are mostly just answering questions and concerns on their own time. Official communication is almost nonexistent.
 
I highly doubt that would qualify as libel, it's name-calling and hyperbole. Again, I'm not saying the game is an actual intended scam. It's heavy language of disapproval. If I falsely described their exact intent and said that they fully intended to make the game a legally defined scam and detailed that, and provided made-up information calling it "proof" that would probably be liable.

Sure.

It is EA, but EA is most of the time a dishonest venture. A developer makes grand sweeping plans, hypes it up, sells the unfinished product, and then runs off with the money and the game half-finished. This here does not seem different. I shouldn't have expected better with TW. I guess I respected them quite a bit.

You can click on the devs' profiles and find all their recently posted messages in a nice list. If it's dev information you're looking for, that's much nicer than scouring each and every page of every thread. Still an unprofessional format of communicating, but those guys are mostly just answering questions and concerns on their own time. Official communication is almost nonexistent.

Well for the tip on posts from the devs etc, that was nice. Tnx.

While alot of the other games EA stuff have been sketchy, I still think you judge and alot of others abit unfairly.
They didnt really give an offical timeline per se, I think it was semi-conducted that it was 1 years or so, but not directly set in stone?
I could be mistaken, but thats what I got the feeling from them.

Then you have covid that threw all the plans out of the window, in general for game development, and alot of projects have been delayed, even scrapped(not to sure if it was just cause of Covid or something else though)

I think my point was more about the its not that you cant say anything etc, but its how you say it(so yes semantics).
Thus atleast here if you say a statement about intent/purpose behind an action like a deliberate scam is, then its defamation or what its called(English not 1st language so I'm not always 100% sure on all the terms and or if they apply to corporations like they do to a person).

You have had several games in recent history that have had horrible launches but have come out fairly decent after time.
Most profiled I think was Cp2077, which even got pulled from Playstation, and only now in this latest patch was put back there to be deemed playable.

Then you have other games who's been in Early Acess for years and years now. Star Citizen for instance(I havent gotten that one, only EA I've got is this Bannerlord and BG3, I have been in other Ea's but on invites)->(SWTOR mmo).

But they should have stepped up the on communication, as its something we see being an issue again and again.
Lack of it, or the information we get is too hard to find(even if that information is good).
Steered expectations more.

I think personally, but I could be wrong, is that the lead guy/Ceo is more used to the format of developing the game solo, and not in large teams, and may lack the skills to organize such a large production.
He more or less programmed Warband with his brother and wife if I recall?
Total freedome, no expectations, no goals(as to when this and that is to be completed etc).
I think this is part of the issue in the companies culture, that its abit more "laidback" than we the customers are wanting.

Like you go to a resturant and order a pizza, you would be fine that it would take from 15-30 min on a regular nite.
A very buzy nite you'd think of 45 min is ok.
However after sitting there for 60 min your starting to get hungry for real, which leads to hangry!
Instead of the waiter telling you that there is a holdup in the kitchend due to one of the ovens haveing shutdown, serviceman is on the way, but thus all meals will be delayed, and ask if you are "ok" with this.

Thats kind of what they need to step up. Steer customer's expectations. I feel they havent done that with you and original poster and tons of others judgeing by the amount of posts on this and similar topics.

We're fairly agreeing in many things, but I still think they havent done any of this things wtih intent, but they just havent had the experience of running such a huge project and with such sucess, and or thus the negative feedback when things arent going to how the customers percive the adventure was to unfold =)
 
It's okay to call Bannerlord a scam. I am no Socialist, but people have given a lot of slack to disingenuous practices of companies and corporations for far too long. They are not your friends, and will always scam you if you let them. Popular voice and enough consumer rejection is the only thing that you can do to make them back down. But TW proves that they can take the heat by simply ignoring it, and it seems the only thing they listen to is when there is a massive enough backlash over very specific things.
No, it isn't a scam. In fact, it is pretty far away from games that have been considered scams, such as Star Citizen. Development for this game has been slow, yes, but that does not mean that it is a scam. A scam would be to release the game and no longer even work on it. BL has been having a troubled development period, yes, but it is incredibly far from a scam. While you may feel as if you have been scammed, that is different from the developers actually looking to scam players out of the game.
It is EA, but EA is most of the time a dishonest venture. A developer makes grand sweeping plans, hypes it up, sells the unfinished product, and then runs off with the money and the game half-finished. This here does not seem different. I shouldn't have expected better with TW. I guess I respected them quite a bit.
Just because a game is in EA does not mean that it will be a dishonest venture. Many different games have been using EA correctly, such as Space Engineers and Pulsar: Lost Colony. Those games took years in order to fully come out, and this game may be in the same situation. However, just because a game is in EA does not make that an argument for it being a scam.

Secondly, they haven't run off with the money. They are continuing to work on the game, and the recent elephant leak shows that they are already planning on post-release content for the game. This isn't one dev scamming people then leaving, this is a company that wanted to put their game out in EA in order to get feedback and also income to help them further development.
 
Just because a game is in EA does not mean that it will be a dishonest venture. Many different games have been using EA correctly, such as Space Engineers and Pulsar: Lost Colony. Those games took years in order to fully come out, and this game may be in the same situation. However, just because a game is in EA does not make that an argument for it being a scam.

Secondly, they haven't run off with the money. They are continuing to work on the game, and the recent elephant leak shows that they are already planning on post-release content for the game. This isn't one dev scamming people then leaving, this is a company that wanted to put their game out in EA in order to get feedback and also income to help them further development.
Idk about this. To take 8 years to get to EA, then for it to be far less than normal EA's that took 1/5th of the time with far smaller dev teams and less resources. The point is not that Bannerlord required an EA but that the EA is five or six years late.

I would say that the elephant leak is promising (I don't particularly care for them, but at least it is something big), but so too have been all the releases throughout the entirety of EA. We are always on the brink of the "next big release" and the huge patch that will make the game so big it mine as well be classified as 2.0 rather than 1.4 or 1.5 whatever. And yet it never comes. I feel sort of like a Jehovah's Witness, being told the apocalypse is going to happen any five minutes now, despite them saying that for a hundred years.
 
Idk about this. To take 8 years to get to EA, then for it to be far less than normal EA's that took 1/5th of the time with far smaller dev teams and less resources. The point is not that Bannerlord required an EA but that the EA is five or six years late.

I would say that the elephant leak is promising (I don't particularly care for them, but at least it is something big), but so too have been all the releases throughout the entirety of EA. We are always on the brink of the "next big release" and the huge patch that will make the game so big it mine as well be classified as 2.0 rather than 1.4 or 1.5 whatever. And yet it never comes. I feel sort of like a Jehovah's Witness, being told the apocalypse is going to happen any five minutes now, despite them saying that for a hundred years.
It took eight years to get to EA, yes, however they also had to build an engine from scratch which can take a while. If anything, I would say maybe 3-4 years would be spent on that alone. The rest would be developing the game and then releasing to the public. Also, an EA being late does not mean that a game is a scam, so that's just a bad point.

And the whole "next big release" thing is just not true, and unless it is specifically stated really shouldn't be thought of. That is both a product of bad communication and also on the forum's end in terms of what is going to come out when. Games take a while to develop, especially when a year of development had been during a global pandemic, and when there will be a massive patch they may, or may not, drum up support for it. Literally all that the fanbase can and should do at this point is be patient, wait for patches to come out and then give feedback.
 
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