I suppose that the inclusion of Battle would seem like a victory and like it's time to cozy up together and set down the points being made by the disgruntled people out there. Assuredly, I'm happy about Battle still being included, however, I don't think anything was lost in translation, and there was no miscommunication, the more I think about it.
The competitive community is expected to compete in a game mode on a server list in the back of the room that no one uses while the "official matchmaking" mode is Skirmish? Is it really a logical conclusion that anyone halfway interested in competing in anything whatsoever would make their way past that big shiny "Play" button in the first place? Sure, Battle is "included" in the same way that mods are "included." They're out there if you look for them, but they aren't the official way of doing things, and the majority of people aren't going to give them the time of day. This changes little but to say that in the strict definition of the word, Battle remains inside the game's code, but the spirit of the message ultimately bares out that the alienation of the competitive community still exists due to our very clearly preferred game mode will not be used for the game's official competitive mode.
The fact still remains that we are the competitive scene, and you are introducing an official competitive mode that is not what we are happy with, even if "Battle" is on a server browser somewhere that 95% of the competitive players won't even know they should look for in the first place. The fact also remains, as well, that you are the development team and you can decide to do whatever you'd like and we can't do a damn thing about it besides talk and make noises. I've done that, and I've tried my best to stay calm and have a civil conversation; to make fair points, to try to bring our views to you in a way you'd understand and you could come to the table with us on. It's clear from Callum's responses about how these things are already decided, and the weak attempts at trying to talk about collaboration and to express a concern for our preferences flies in the face of when that actually used to be the case. A guy from nK -- Styo -- was one I used to play in Warband's original Beta with, said it best:
There was no thought here of doing this. I've been telling Lust for years and years, "Hey man, we're here if you want to reach out to us and have us give feedback for Bannerlord's testing or any kind of implementation. And, if not us, we hope you go with AE or any of the other clans. Just pick a group and use our knowledge, use what we have here when you're building the next game."
Clearly that wasn't listened to.
I'll respond to a few points that jumped out at me, but honestly, I'm pretty convinced at this point that my efforts here are being wasted, and that I should spend my time doing things that are actually productive. From the tone of these responses, it's clear that the only interest from the other side is to appear sympathetic, but ultimately, the subliminal message is that they're going to whatever they like, and we can deal with it.
This is not a comparison done in good faith. You seem to think that because you used a server browser in Warband to access a Battle server, and because you use a server browser in Bannerlord to access a Battle server, that it's a direct comparison. It isn't.
Bannerlord, as stated, will have a matchmaking system. This represents the main point of contact for any kind of competitive player. The absence of an "official" matchmaking system in Bannerlord then set all game types as potential candidates, and the community decided that Battle was best, and we refined it over almost a decade. Am I glad Battle may be an option? Sure. But it's still sitting on the back of a server list that most people are going to need to know exists in the first place, and most people aren't going to make their way to the server browser to manually look for an unheard of "Battle" game type when the UI leads competitive players directly to Skirmish when they hit "Play." Players won't know what they don't know, they'll simply assume Mount & Blade: Bannerlord's competitive game mode is Skirmish, because TaleWorlds has deemed it so, even if the already existing competitive scene completely disagrees, because TaleWorlds knows better than we do.
I read through the first 2-3 pages and saw you, Callum, trying to make half-amends and weak reaches for understanding. I can't go through and reply to every single one, but allow me to reply to a few here. Also, let me remind you when you and I sat down on Bladecast's Round Table, and you guaranteed me that you guys would be doing more to reach out to the community, promised that you'd be looking into certain topics -- I never saw any return whatsoever on those things. So, forgive me if I'm skeptical when you say things to the effect of you actually valuing community feedback with any real intention of applying it in a meaningful way.
On the one hand, you value community feedback, but on the other hand, you say "There will be no single-life game mode in matchmaking," despite the vast majority of players decrying this decision very loudly, almost in unison. Your constant response is "Trust us, it'll provide all these great levels of tactical decisions, and I have 1k hours so I know what I'm talking about!" I have nearly 2500 on my own, since Warband's beta. I'm sure the guys in AE, wK, Balion, TMW, or any major group, have massive amounts more, and when most of those people are telling you that you're making a very poor design decision that goes against the spirit of what we've come to enjoy, we should just accept you know best? More lives brings more tactical complexities than it removes? How many elite level teams have you or your random developers called for? Let's not kid ourselves, any mode besides the "official" mode is going to be a redheaded stepchild in all but name, for reasons I've already outlined, so at this point, it's almost superfluous for me to sit here and try to save Battle as it's evident it will simply be presented to us as a competitive afterthought. I quote you here as your aim being not to alienating your existing playerbase, but your accuracy here is worse than a Nord crossbowman, and that's being generous.
Classes and Perks belong in Call of Duty, not Mount & Blade, as customization was always a massive draw. BkS employed Coursers where TMW decided to bring Hunters, so we'll have the speed edge where they'll have the ability to handle more damage. We preferred heavy lances to Great Lances, which led to a reliance on Javelins when we had to face off against Swadians. It was a personal taste and tactics decision made depending on what faction, what map, and what clan you were playing against. We don't take helms because we're sexy and our swag levels are too high, and even while that sounds silly and superfluous, it was our conscious decision to taunt, incense, and save money at the same time. It was a choice. You are completely removing one of those considerations, but all you're going to do is list the positives about the change? No, let's talk about the negatives too, and you're cutting out a massive layer of tactical depth that you seem to prize when you're talking about other features. You can have all the reasons in the world, but you're still taking away choice. You are closing down the store and telling us to pick from one of 4-5 baskets pre-selected for us. I don't like the itemization changes at all, but if I have to list my grievances in order of severity, nothing outranks the choice of single-life-spawns.
I can play the "if" game too. *IF* there were new official maps released, *IF* there were new weapons or factions released from time to time, *IF* there were fresh content introduced to shake up the meta, *IF* the gold costs and usage stats were monitored and modified through patches in an attempt to balance in an ongoing manner, then choices allow for an ever-evolving meta to happen. Look at Starcraft, look at League of Legends; if Bannerlord wants to be this amazing competitive scene, then stop and do your homework. The metas of those two games are ever-changing, ever-evolving, because players are allowed to have choice, and the players respond to changes in the system by making different decisions. You don't see players being pigeonholed in an attempt to foster competitive play or tactical choices. That is the opposite of the model being used here, and I think between our two "if" scenarios, I'd put my money on Riot and Blizzard. Again, we are saying "if" quite a bit here, so let's cut the difference and arrive at the middle point and say that, most likely, the implementation will be moderately okay, and this will lead to very little variation being seen with very little reason to shift anything around.
I thought we were having a conversation? I thought you guys were open to community input? But, somehow, the decision is already made, and Battle will be relegated to a back wall where the weird kids hang out? You don't want to split the playerbase up, but you're basically sending your old community to a server browser while you're bringing in new people and telling them to push the "Play" button on the front page that will matchmake them into Skirmish while we, in the meantime, hit the "Browse Servers" button and find one manually to play on servers and in modes that the general public aren't really too aware exist in the first place? I'm not attempting to be difficult here, I'm actually just saying what you're not saying and what you're trying to avoid, and the more I see you avoiding the hard topics and the cold truths, the more I'm inclined to call them out. It's making it worse that you are just telling me that this car you're building, it has rockets on it, it has missiles and a microwave and all kinds of cool things, when I'm sitting here telling you that the tires are missing. The tires. Look at them. They're not there. Please stop making me point out the obvious by ignoring it and telling me about other things. You're alienating your competitive community, so my advice here is to take ours and make some modifications to Skirmish, and change the tone of "the decision has been made" to "hey, let's sit down and talk about how we can improve this."
Ultimately, as I said before in my other quite-long post, you are not For Honor, you are not DOTA, you are not anything other than Mount & Blade. Grow, evolve, expand, but stop trying to be something you're not, and stop alienating your community.
#nobattlenobks
