![[LCG]Norris](/data/avatars/m/516/516448.jpg?1580994825){kind=avatar}
it's a good argument if you think about it a bit
There is a mod in development, let's keep hope
I trust the same my lord.
Nice COH2, an old and unique game that is still very much alive.
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Definitive post about development of Bannerlord
- Thread starter [LCG]Norris
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There is no doubt that the feeling of "fraud" heightens as time passes and those long-awaited original mechanics that Bannerlord should have do not arrive.TL
I am extremely happy that we don't have to 'wait' for the game any longer, and am super happy that they released it in EA so we could try it.
I am super unhappy about how they said the game would be, how they said they would approach the EA development, and how they actually delivered on these things.
The game in 2016 looked better than the state of what it is right now (unfortunately).
Honestly, your post is fair - but its unfair to forget the whole spectrum of events that relate to it. Props to TW for trying to do something 'good', but no props for not seeking help / addressing these major concerns (both from a development & communications point of view). I just think this has been disastrous.
I dont want to give blind optimism/congratulations to TW for clearly NOT addressing the community's concerns.
That is undoubted, but from that point to turning this forum into the absurd constant attack on everything that TW does is a lot of distance, don't you think?
I don't want to seem like a fanboy without a brain, I'm just as frustrated as many of you, but I was already embarrassed to enter the forum to always read the same ****.
JohannTheFirst
Veteran
Not really, but I don't think that's truly what you want this thread to be about, is it?
No it isn't. It's actually a really bad argument, especially for a game in EA.
I get the intention and point of the OP but I think its partially a matter of perspective. I unfortunately was never a part of the original Mount and Blade community/following so I am sure my perspective on it will differ from long time fans and people familiar with TaleWorlds, but I am a lifelong avid gamer and this age of Early Access development is definitely one of the more exciting yet frustrating eras of gaming history.
I am still very much into this game and have multiple campaigns I am actively switching between with various cultures, "goals", and mods. Luckily, as I get older however I have given up much of my naivety and I don't blindly defend a game I am currently in the "honeymoon" phase of. I have a theory that people who do blindly defend a game or studio or reject all opinions or complaints in the name of "Early Access" actually cause much of the negativity and even toxicity seen on these forums. It seems many threads and comments are either radically on one side or the other and that is because they feed each other.
With all that said, the thing WE ALL likely have in common is that we very much love this game or at least the idea of it. It is a novel experience for me in gaming and finally exploring the modding community has opened the door to so many new experiences and ideas. Regardless, where people currently stand WE ALL want this game to succeed and continue to progress to an ideal state sooner than later. I can sympathize with both extremes. If I had been playing this since launch, much less since earlier Mount and Blade titles, I could very well see myself being jaded and frustrated and no longer willing to give the benefit of the doubt or be polite about it. However I can also understand defending the game/studio even in instances where I deep down know they deserve the criticism, just for the sake of believing it will help quell some of the toxicity or prevent others from becoming disillusioned during this EA state.
However hopefully this post can maybe convince some that going to far to either end of the spectrum is actually doing a disservice to the community and possible the future of the game, assuming the desire is to see the game flourish and at least meet expectations if not exceed them.
The other thing, at least veteran gamers, have in common no matter what we publicly state here on the forums is that we have all likely had a bad taste put in our mouth at some point over the last several years over "Early Access". Too often it has lead to developers betraying their talents, ambitions, the gaming industry at large, and most importantly the FANS in the name of shrewd business decisions. They have a title that has a ton of potential and could be potentially ground breaking which benefits the whole industry once the promised or expected official release of the game is reached. It generates a ton of support and fanfare, spawning forums, communities, mods, reddit memes and memorable experiences for gamers and their friends and then suddenly it becomes clear to the developers and their executives or investors that they have already made a substantial amount of money just from a "promise"; from an unfinished yet playable game. Most of these EA titles seem to stay in that state seemingly forever giving them a "get out of jail free card" when it comes to criticism and that leads to what WOULD have been their core community of players burned out on the game before it ever reaches its summit and all the while new ideas and trends are taking hold in the industry. So instead of putting all that dough back into the bakery and delivering the cake that was initially envisioned or even promised, it becomes simply a smarter business decision to put that money into a NEW title that follows the current trends and basically putting the initial project on life support and in "Early Access" purgatory for the foreseeable future.
And even worse is we just NEVER know when that is what is actually taking place so it is literally up to US and ONLY US to call it out when we see evidence of it, demand regular and transparent communication from the studio and hold them accountable finally if it is concluded that they more than likely have actually committed this betrayal to the ones that allow them to do ANY of it AT ALL. But on the other hand, we are lieing to ourselves if we don't realize by now that no matter that industry, money talks and ultimately we WANT our favorite developers and publishers to make smart business decisions and succeed so they can keep providing us entertainment. However, I believe it CAN and SHOULD be done without betraying your fanbase and consistently making short-sighted decisions to avoid risk and cash in on the "sure" money instead of driving innovation and possibly becoming a classic and beloved title that sets new standards and generates money for years to come but taking the risk of crashing and burning if it doesn't pay off.
Welp, I apologize for the wall of text I definitely went somewhere I didn't intend to go and I don't even know if this was a rant or some kind of op-ed or a genuine response to the OP... but I hope at least some of you are willing to read it and share your thoughts because I would like to know if there are any others out there that think the way I do about these things. Take care all.
I am still very much into this game and have multiple campaigns I am actively switching between with various cultures, "goals", and mods. Luckily, as I get older however I have given up much of my naivety and I don't blindly defend a game I am currently in the "honeymoon" phase of. I have a theory that people who do blindly defend a game or studio or reject all opinions or complaints in the name of "Early Access" actually cause much of the negativity and even toxicity seen on these forums. It seems many threads and comments are either radically on one side or the other and that is because they feed each other.
With all that said, the thing WE ALL likely have in common is that we very much love this game or at least the idea of it. It is a novel experience for me in gaming and finally exploring the modding community has opened the door to so many new experiences and ideas. Regardless, where people currently stand WE ALL want this game to succeed and continue to progress to an ideal state sooner than later. I can sympathize with both extremes. If I had been playing this since launch, much less since earlier Mount and Blade titles, I could very well see myself being jaded and frustrated and no longer willing to give the benefit of the doubt or be polite about it. However I can also understand defending the game/studio even in instances where I deep down know they deserve the criticism, just for the sake of believing it will help quell some of the toxicity or prevent others from becoming disillusioned during this EA state.
However hopefully this post can maybe convince some that going to far to either end of the spectrum is actually doing a disservice to the community and possible the future of the game, assuming the desire is to see the game flourish and at least meet expectations if not exceed them.
The other thing, at least veteran gamers, have in common no matter what we publicly state here on the forums is that we have all likely had a bad taste put in our mouth at some point over the last several years over "Early Access". Too often it has lead to developers betraying their talents, ambitions, the gaming industry at large, and most importantly the FANS in the name of shrewd business decisions. They have a title that has a ton of potential and could be potentially ground breaking which benefits the whole industry once the promised or expected official release of the game is reached. It generates a ton of support and fanfare, spawning forums, communities, mods, reddit memes and memorable experiences for gamers and their friends and then suddenly it becomes clear to the developers and their executives or investors that they have already made a substantial amount of money just from a "promise"; from an unfinished yet playable game. Most of these EA titles seem to stay in that state seemingly forever giving them a "get out of jail free card" when it comes to criticism and that leads to what WOULD have been their core community of players burned out on the game before it ever reaches its summit and all the while new ideas and trends are taking hold in the industry. So instead of putting all that dough back into the bakery and delivering the cake that was initially envisioned or even promised, it becomes simply a smarter business decision to put that money into a NEW title that follows the current trends and basically putting the initial project on life support and in "Early Access" purgatory for the foreseeable future.
And even worse is we just NEVER know when that is what is actually taking place so it is literally up to US and ONLY US to call it out when we see evidence of it, demand regular and transparent communication from the studio and hold them accountable finally if it is concluded that they more than likely have actually committed this betrayal to the ones that allow them to do ANY of it AT ALL. But on the other hand, we are lieing to ourselves if we don't realize by now that no matter that industry, money talks and ultimately we WANT our favorite developers and publishers to make smart business decisions and succeed so they can keep providing us entertainment. However, I believe it CAN and SHOULD be done without betraying your fanbase and consistently making short-sighted decisions to avoid risk and cash in on the "sure" money instead of driving innovation and possibly becoming a classic and beloved title that sets new standards and generates money for years to come but taking the risk of crashing and burning if it doesn't pay off.
Welp, I apologize for the wall of text I definitely went somewhere I didn't intend to go and I don't even know if this was a rant or some kind of op-ed or a genuine response to the OP... but I hope at least some of you are willing to read it and share your thoughts because I would like to know if there are any others out there that think the way I do about these things. Take care all.
This is the double-edged sword! Practically everyone on these forums, even those banned, all post threads out of love and hope for a bright BL future. This is why many are disappointed when reasons for basic suggestions are met with "too complex". When people talk about how simplistic the game feels, it is usually in comparison to TW's previous titles, the reason for the idea that BL is a two steps forward onestep back mindset.
As for the rest of your post, we do have a lot of references when it comes to how development occurs. A most recent example exists with this post by Mexxico. I don't believe it to be more of financial motivations, but just development hell.
JohannTheFirst
Veteran
Sure thing, you too!
This is probably the most important thing for our society as a whole, not just game related. People seem to be too quickly coerced by extreme views. Many times without even realizing it.
It's also why I dislike the label "fan" for anything. There's a healthy appreciation for things a firm does or intends to do, but once you're supposedly a "fan" any differentiated analysis of their effect on the market, business practices or their performance needs to be kicked to the curb, how else could you be a "fan"? It's a weird sunk-cost phenomenon.
On the flip-side, collective organization in an effort to disparage others also happens far too quickly. Same mechanisms at play at some point.
When it comes to TW, or even other EA titles I've played, I've never felt cheated in the purest sense. In the end, they're all game companies. I'm fairly certain they try, but people in all walks of life fail. They fail often, they fail over long stretches of time, and they fail on wildly different scales. Thing with people making entertainment is that it at least essentially doesn't matter. There's no tangible loss, as opposed to thousands upon hundreds of thousands of other professions, so whatever. I'm there to help should they need completely obvious ideas to improve on my experience at some point, but if they don't there's other nonsense I can entertain myself with.
Buying their next game, though? Not so sure, they'll really have to wow me with the rest of Bannerlord EA.
Calabanar
Sergeant at Arms
I mean, there is a lot of negativity, but if you read the 1.5.10 patch notes discussion, you might notice there was a lot less negativity than before. In fact, there was quite a lot of positivity (although it triggered those unhappy with the patch into rage).
So while the best thing to do would indeed be to avoid taking the game so seriously, it is important to note that it actually wouldn’t be that hard for Taleworlds to completely change the atmosphere here for the better.
By all means, the ball is in their court.
So while the best thing to do would indeed be to avoid taking the game so seriously, it is important to note that it actually wouldn’t be that hard for Taleworlds to completely change the atmosphere here for the better.
By all means, the ball is in their court.
JohannTheFirst
Veteran
You're not wrong, but I don't doubt for a second it's hard. I've made this point before, coming up with ideas yourself and therefore pushing up your own expectations for a sandbox game is ridiculously easy. And many, if not most, would be super fitting and nice additions. Not saying they've done a perfect (or even really good) job of integrating an ideal amount of stuff, but matching what a game with a premise like Bannerlord could be is nigh on impossible, especially when you've got business scaling issues etc.
Here's to hoping.
Exactly, thank you, it was a bad argument. ?
Interesting point about the term "fan" and I totally get what you are saying. To that end, let me say in my usage of it I think its more of a colloquialism and I used for the lack of a better word. I feel like using customer or patron doesn't represent who I was referring to properly... perhaps supporter would be best? Follower sounds a bit too... culty?
I dunno we need to get our gaming rant jargon together. We need to ***** about games and develops we care about, I just want people to do it right!
Keldar
Recruit
Please enlighten those of us who think the game has gotten WORSE not better. What are the good things? Sieging where your troops do not climb the ladders and get slaughtered just standing around? It was FAR better before. The AI in general is about as poor of an AI as I have seen in any game. The graphics are absolutely beautiful and I love just walking my character through towns and castles but that is not a game that is walking through scenery. What about the unit balance, they went from archers being SO OP that they could wipe out armies 4-5 times larger because no one knew how to use shields to arches losing tons of accuracy and not being able to kill hardly anything. Be real, the "good" things about the game are few and far between and yes Taleworlds seems to be using the fact that this game is STILL in EA as an excuse as to why so many aspects of the game are horrible, unfinished or just downright DON'T WORK.
Calabanar
Sergeant at Arms
Hope is a slippery slope, I thing to do is just wait and see.
JohannTheFirst
Veteran
Most would, probably. "People who like the game" might be a phrase that is be detached enough, but as implied above, all of what's going on in this forum seems to be a microcosm of the self-enforcing mechanisms all human collective endeavours have. You get a thread (in this case rather seldomly, due to pre-selection of the audience) that's rather positive, and suddenly you have an influx of people showering it in generalized praise. In another there's talk about Failworlds and you get the impression that Armagan himself has sold his audience a bridge and ran off to the caribbean afterwards.
Hell, I'm sure all of the devs are nice guys, but some seem to adore mexxico like the second coming of christ, while some seem to despise Callum like Satan.
Now all of this probably isn't quite as problematic as it seems, since hyperbole is often simply used to reinforce an opinion, while the person behind a post is usually more levelheaded in their approach. And even if not, there's nothing important at stake here, except for the mental well-being of the devs, but I suppose you can argue that that's a path they chose for themselves.
This being said, I don't know if there's really a solution for any of this. It's deeply rooted in the way human biology/psychology seems to work. The only reason I can be this detached from whatever happens with Bannerlord, is because I don't have that much of a stake in it. And usually people like that don't engage in Forums, because they don't care enough. I haven't played the game in ages and I only returned to the Forums after months. Before Bannerlord the last time I checked around here with a different account was more than a decade ago. Imagine everyone was like this, this place would be dead, and it would probably be even worse of a motivator than thousands of pages ****ting on the studio.
People just suck at middle grounds. Including me, naturally.
I can't speak for the progress of the EA of Bannerlord, but that is in flux anyway. When it comes to Warband: The game was nearly unplayable. Another poster recently spoke of "death by a thousand cuts", with regards to UI issues that annoy the ever loving crap out of any sane human being, referring to Bannerlord. Now Warband had the worst user experience of any game I've come across, modded or unmodded. And in years of its existence, very few people seemed to even bat an eye, they were just a bunch of people making the game after all, and think of the limited engine, and... etc., it makes sense that it's clunky.
No, it was absolutely terrible. Taken together I probably spent 50/50 time-wise being annoyed by the UI and actually playing the game. Annoyances of game mechanics that I didn't agree with aren't even counted in here.
Bannerlord initially made a ton of mistakes UI wise as well, mainly by doing it the same way as Warband, but there are some really important QoL things, especially for the UI, that mean that IF I will ever play a Taleworlds game again, it will absolutely be Bannerlord, and not Warband.
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Keldar
Recruit
I hear you, but when I first got M&B2 which was about a month after it was released to EA I loved it, yes most of the skills weren't there yet but the game felt so much more solid, sieging worked among other things. Now its like everything that was good about the game has taken a turn for the worse and I certainly know that with them trying to add content, improve things that things can get broken that weren't but to me it seems them breaking things is mostly what is happening. There are a few improvements that I like but they are not work sieging being so broken its barely worth trying to make my own kingdom.
Although, in fact, that a game is on EA is a justified reason for many of the complaints you make, simply complaining in the most pessimistic way does not help at all, that was the idea of this post.
Keldar
Recruit
Yes but I see them keeping the game in EA a direct contradiction to them saying it would be in for about a year for several years so they can move at a snails pace. I don't think that is in the spirit of what EA is supposed to be about. I had hoped that Taleworlds would not be like so many other devs and blatantly lie about their intentions, now things happen as it is only 1.5 months over the year so I hope I am wrong but with the pace they have had for the last 6 months at fixing things that have been BROKEN FROM THE BEGINNING I don't have a lot of confidence and CLEARLY many people share my frustration. Oh and complaining is the only way to hold their feet to the fire. Obviously those like yourself who think the devs are Gods, can never do anything wrong and should be able to take 20 years with no one complain will never join the realists in their opinion that it is time Taleworlds got their act together and their foot on the gas.
JohannTheFirst
Veteran
I am fairly certain that "they" are not lying about their intentions. People that actively want to deceive you are few and far between. Simply failing in adequately grasping the scale of the project and their work speed is much, much, much more likely. And they usually feel bad enough about their failures themselves.
Think of it in the sense of the phrase "Never attribute to malice that which can adequately be explained by stupidity."
Though "stupidity" is also a bit too harsh in this case.
