Armenian Genocide (?)

[Ser Jon]

Nationalism is bad when it convinces you that you are superior to everyone else and that everyone else is an inferior enemy you need to watch out for. Case in point, how some of the people here view Armenians and Armenia. Since nationalism hardly ever results in anything but that extraordinary case of extremism, most people with it tend to be extreme in their views, including possessing a hatefulness which they can't sometimes even see themselves. Which often leads them to defending horrific things their country did, or denying horrific things their country did.

revolve their existence and identity around hating Turks

Where did you hear this from, Turkey? How many Armenians do you know? Have you ever traveled to Armenia? The fact that you can spout hateful nonsense like this with a straight face is incredible.

and "keeping Azerbaijan and Turkey apart at any cost".

Oh...is that so? Is that what they are all thinking about?

An average Turk just does not care about Armenia.

You and many others seem quite interested in Armenia and Armenians, being so scared of their big evil plan to ruin Turkey and take their land, so I'd disagree with that.

Someone had said that this forum is not Turkey. Well guess again.

Yea and I'm not a Ser and you aren't a princess. Your point?

There's a slight self-awareness these types have as to how ridiculous they sound, but the mental gymnastics persists, because admittance would mean some sort of house of cards of premises will collapse by doing so. It really fascinates me.

The lengths they will go to defend their country or its past decisions is really incredible. This is the effectiveness of a country's propaganda and educational control.

 

[Princess Mikoto]

Where did you hear this from, Turkey? How many Armenians do you know? Have you ever traveled to Armenia? The fact that you can spout hateful nonsense like this with a straight face is incredible.

Edited that out, but I did not travel to Armenia. So far in my close proximity, 0. I did not and do not plan to, as I fear I would be in danger as I am not good at hiding that I am Turkish at all.
It is not hateful at all tho. It is an observation. I followed the 44-days war at all its 44 days, Azerbaijanis and Armenians alike.

Oh...is that so? Is that what they are all thinking about?

Looking at the borders that have been drawn unwillingly by Turkey and Azerbaijan and the massive negative reaction to the new corridor.
By the way, you do not need to be extra pointy as with words like "all thinking about". Because the answer is obviously "no", if I were to answer briefly.

You and many others seem quite interested in Armenia and Armenians, being so scared of their big evil plan to ruin Turkey and take their land, so I'd disagree with that.

You and many others seem quite interested in Turkey and Turks, wanting them to aknowledge "the Armenian genocide". What for? Obviously, Armenia alone is neither an enemy nor a threat. But one wonders how they got all the Soviet trash military equipment... after all, they are such a rich and developed country, right? Hmm.

Yea and I'm not a Ser and you aren't a princess. Your point?

Well, you talk about yourself. I am indeed a Princess. Point is, if this is Turkey, as definied by some here, then we would have to locked up right now. I can already see the red dot on my forehead.

The lengths they will go to defend their country or its past decisions is really incredible. This is the effectiveness of a country's propaganda and educational control.

Or... you know, just loving ones country. Is every past decision right? Of course not. We are talking about one thing here: the Armenian genocide. If denying its existince is defending, well then, we are just defending against one single thing here. Arguably an event that has nothing to do with Turkey.
However... propaganda in Germany seems to be especially strong. In Europe, one learns only about the Ottoman Empire and its great deeds /obvious sarcasm (actually, just one or two words of Turks in school books at all, wow).

Turks, Everyone, listen here! Look at those - to what lengths they will go to have us admit to something while they deny our accussations.
...
big sigh. Like very big sigh

Edit:

Nationalism is bad when it convinces you that you are superior to everyone else and that everyone else is an inferior enemy you need to watch out for. Case in point, how some of the people here view Armenians and Armenia. Since nationalism hardly ever results in anything but that extraordinary case of extremism, most people with it tend to be extreme in their views, including possessing a hatefulness which they can't sometimes even see themselves. Which often leads them to defending horrific things their country did, or denying horrific things their country did.

True.
Thanks to Tengri that I only believe that mighty Khuzait Horse Archers are above all!

 

[Mad Vader]

There's a slight self-awareness these types have as to how ridiculous they sound, but the mental gymnastics persists, because admittance would mean some sort of house of cards of premises will collapse by doing so. It really fascinates me.

When you base an unhealthy chunk of your identity on nationalism, it's a house of cards to be defended at all costs. It doesn't help that the whole country is a sealed echo chamber and their dictator encourages siege mentality to consolidate his nationalist support.

 

[Mad Vader]

Or am I just overreacting and misunderstanding?

Imagine if a bunch of deluded people keep coming at you saying Earth is flat or whatever. After some time, you grow tired of showing them pictures and documents and just say that they are ridiculous and don't care at all if they change their minds as long as they stop staying stupid things.
Now, if someone of a required calibre of intellectual integrity, logic and knowledge comes here and starts defending the indefensible, but in a serious and earnest way, you know he will be more open to facts and logic and you would try your best to engage them. People who dismiss facts with "it's fake i can't hear you lalalala" don't deserve much in a way of response.

 

[Nega-Brutus]

Why do you all... kinda turn your backs now and talk in brief sentences about arguably me and Turks in defense in terms such as "ridiculous", as if we were somehow inferior or diseased?

I was talking about nationalists. It's not exclusive to Turks, but thanks for affirming that you people have gross inferiority-superiority complexions.

I mean, whomever you talk to is all up to you of course, I don't judge that. But you are here to somewhat have a discussion and maybe convince us, right? Not like talk in a circle with yourselves like bunch of highschool bullies.

You haven't said anything novel and I don't care about you.

 

[Princess Mikoto]

You haven't said anything novel and I don't care about you.

Suits me.

 

[Ser Jon]

Edited that out, but I did not travel to Armenia. So far in my close proximity, 0. I did not and do not plan to,

Then do not speak on behalf of Armenia or the Armenians.

as I fear I would be in danger as I am not good at hiding that I am Turkish at all.
It is not hateful at all tho. It is an observation. I followed the 44-days war at all its 44 days, Azerbaijanis and Armenians alike.

Yes, it is hateful. Your inability to grasp that doesn't change it. When you live your life thinking Armenians are out to get you or that they are terrible people etc, that is hatefulness. Hatefulness taught to you. And yet you whinge that you think people here are being hateful towards Turks. The hypocritical nonsense you spout without even realizing it is insane.

Looking at the borders that have been drawn unwillingly by Turkey and Azerbaijan and the massive negative reaction to the new corridor.
By the way, you do not need to be extra pointy as with words like "all thinking about". Because the answer is obviously "no", if I were to answer briefly.

But you did say that's what they were all thinking about. You have continued to classify all Armenians under your perception of them, a perception granted to you by your country. You even now refuse to completely quit the notion of "all Armenians".

You and many others seem quite interested in Turkey and Turks, wanting them to aknowledge "the Armenian genocide". What for? Obviously, Armenia alone is neither an enemy nor a threat. But one wonders how they got all the Soviet trash military equipment... after all, they are such a rich and developed country, right? Hmm.

Of course we are interested in it. The thread is about the Armenian genocide committed by Turkey. The discussion of it does not, in any way, indicate we feel poorly of all Turks. The fact that you think it does is insane. I can acknowledge the horrific deeds of my country without hating all of my countrymen. And it has been stated "why", because the lack of doing so breeds the same environment in which it originally happened. If Turkey admits to it, they admit that it happened and that it was wrong, putting it into the general population's head that it was calculated and that it was wrong. But Turkey doesn't want to do that, because the government understands it was wrong but they do not care because they perceive Armenians (and Bulgarians, and Kurds etc etc) as an "enemy".

And what the hell does weaponry matter in this discussion? You keep trying to deflect away from the genocide with these asinine imaginations about Armenia and it makes absolutely no sense. Whether or not Russia gave them weapons or sold them weapons (whatever you are trying to get at) doesn't mean the Armenian genocide didn't happen or that Turkey's government is responsible for it.

Well, you talk about yourself. I am indeed a Princess. Point is, if this is Turkey, as definied by some here, then we would have to locked up right now. I can already see the red dot on my forehead.

I'm sorry, I don't know what you are trying to say. Are you trying to say that we are "after" you, and for the Armenians' sake? How do you not see how incredibly ignorant and hateful that is? Armenians are not out to get you. No one is out to get you, least of all for just being a Turk. ?

Or... you know, just loving ones country. Is every past decision right? Of course not. We are talking about one thing here: the Armenian genocide. If denying its existince is defending, well then, we are just defending against one single thing here. Arguably an event that has nothing to do with Turkey.
However... propaganda in Germany seems to be especially strong. In Europe, one learns only about the Ottoman Empire and its great deeds /obvious sarcasm (actually, just one or two words of Turks in school books at all, wow).

Turks, Everyone, listen here! Look at those - to what lengths they will go to have us admit to something while they deny our accussations.
...
big sigh. Like very big sigh

If you can acknowledge that some decisions can be wrong, acknowledge that the genocide happened and that Turkey was responsible for it.

It has nothing to do with Turkey? Yes it does. The Ottoman Empire ordered it. If you mean modern day Turkey, again, yes it does because they refuse to admit that it happened and grant the Armenians the acknowledgement of humanity and existence. Imagine if the U.S committed genocide against Turks and we were presenting this ****e argument to you. Would you accept that because we "have nothing to gain from saying it" we shouldn't? No need to answer. I know you would not, because it would be wrong and it would induce further bigotry against people. You know that, but you are so brainwashed by your nationalist pride you can't see it.

And most countries teach a very basic history for other countries. No one is taught an extensive history on foreign countries, as far as I'm aware. What they should learn as a basis though is when another country does something so monumentally monstrous everyone needs to know about it. For example the Armenian genocide, the Greek genocide, Assyrian genocide, the Holocaust, and all world wars. Germany not educating its people on all of the "wonderous things" of Turkey doesn't mean it's propaganda against Turkey. Good lord! ?

True.
Thanks to Tengri that I only believe that mighty Khuzait Horse Archers are above all!

?

EDIT

Why do you all... kinda turn your backs now and talk in brief sentences about arguably me and Turks in defense in terms such as "ridiculous", as if we were somehow inferior or diseased?

Brah

 

[Kentucky 『 ＨＥＩＧＵＩ 』 James]

I have to say, that mentioning nazis killing soviet civilians or not is out of the picture, because all parties here are not denying that.

Not now, but back in the 60s when historians were looking into both, the hundreds of high ranking Nazis that the allied powers failed to execute then went around spreading myths about the clean Wehrmacht which persist to this day amongst the public. Your average person has no idea that a lot of what they know about the holocaust is directly from HIAG, which was an organisation of SS officers bent on maintaining their image.

At the same time there were discussions about the Holomodor in the west which concluded that it was a deliberate attempt by the politburo to kill millions of Ukrainians. But like most healthy discussions, this was completely separate from the holocaust or nazi war crimes in eastern europe. Only someone who feels personally attacked by the accusations of the Holomodor (i.e. a Soviet Nationalist or a tankie) would feel the need to connect the two, or draw attention to the other and say "aHA! you aren't talking about X, are you???"

All we talk here about is "Your Turkish ancestors did evil!" "No, mine didn't. Actually, your ancestors did." "Why are you trying to change the topic of your ancestors having done evil crimes?" "Because they didn't. But yours did, why don't you see that?" "NOOO WHY DON....

I find the bit in bold fascinating, and really revealing as to why you are reacting like this. Nobody except you has talked about ancestors. Nobody here cares who your ancestors were. Our target is not you or your sense of self, but the government of Turkey. If you feel like that has anything to do with "your turkish ancestors" then that is on you.

Also if you know who my ancestors are then please tell me, because like most other Jamaicans I have no idea, nor do I really care. If they turn out to be auschwitz guards then I'll be sure to tell you and everyone else that my ancestors were pricks.

 

[eddiemccandless]

Edited that out, but I did not travel to Armenia. So far in my close proximity, 0. I did not and do not plan to, as I fear I would be in danger as I am not good at hiding that I am Turkish at all.

Have you ever thought that maybe, just maybe, the fact that you do not know a single Armenian leaves you vulnerable to others giving you a mental picture of them that doesn't necessarily match the truth? It is very difficult to hate an entire category of people when you have even one or two friends who belong to that group.

People are people. There's not any ethnicity or nationality that makes you inherently good or bad.

 

[Princess Mikoto]

Okay I will try not to use sarcasm anymore, noted.

Then do not speak on behalf of Armenia or the Armenians.

I am not? I am speaking solely for myself first and foremost, while everything else are assumptions, simple because of its nature.

Yes, it is hateful. Your inability to grasp that doesn't change it. When you live your life thinking Armenians are out to get you or that they are terrible people etc, that is hatefulness. Hatefulness taught to you. And yet you whinge that you think people here are being hateful towards Turks. The hypocritical nonsense you spout without even realizing it is insane.

Whatever you want to call it. Call it hateful then. If I end up hating most Armenians, obviously depending on their mindset of hating good Turks, so be it. Perhaps I am wrong to think that most Armenians are out to get me. Publicly, their image in my eyes ain't great and that is not because I watch Turkish news. And if you people would hate Turks for whatever reason, so be it. I am sure you have your reasons, be it right or wrong.
Now that we established that I am a hateful individual, I would like to share a scenario. As a definied hateful person, the first thing that would happen if I were to understand that someone is Armenian,... you guessed it, continued interaction with the person as if they were not Armenian. Frankly, it does not matter where they are from. I simply hate those who would deserve my hate. And if I am catious because of that, am I to be judged? It is not hypocritical at all. I am to check my sources. You should check your sources. We should know whether our informations are correct or not, even from most trusted sources. I know that there are ****ty humans everywhere. If you think there are more ****ty humans in Turkey, you might not be wrong. But as a German Turk, I know that Western media is also full of bull****, propaganda that you are not aware of. There is not a single thing Turkey is doing right and in Europe's interest, ever, according to the West. So if someone were to be hateful towards Turks, right or wrong, no matter... I know where it comes from.

But you did say that's what they were all thinking about. You have continued to classify all Armenians under your perception of them, a perception granted to you by your country. You even now refuse to completely quit the notion of "all Armenians".

I will try not using "all" then but "to me it seems most" on this topic. Better?

Of course we are interested in it. The thread is about the Armenian genocide committed by Turkey. The discussion of it does not, in any way, indicate we feel poorly of all Turks. The fact that you think it does is insane. I can acknowledge the horrific deeds of my country without hating all of my countrymen. And it has been stated "why", because the lack of doing so breeds the same environment in which it originally happened. If Turkey admits to it, they admit that it happened and that it was wrong, putting it into the general population's head that it was calculated and that it was wrong. But Turkey doesn't want to do that, because the government understands it was wrong but they do not care because they perceive Armenians (and Bulgarians, and Kurds etc etc) as an "enemy".

I do hope that you do not feel poorly of all Turks. The fact that I believe that you could is not insane.
That you can acknowledge horrific deeds of your country is a great thing, no doubt. I can too. I simply do not agree on this topic, on the Armenian genocide, with you. That should not be then "insane", "ridiculous" or any other shaky adjective.
We could definitely use that some start understanding that killing and massacring "enemies" is wrong, no doubt.
That doesn't mean Turkey should be somewhat politically forced to admit something that might not have happened. Not under the current circumstances. I would even support it being acknowledge if it didn't actually happen just for the sake of sending a message, even if everyone were lying about it. But not like this, under the current geopolitical conditions.

And what the hell does weaponry matter in this discussion? You keep trying to deflect away from the genocide with these asinine imaginations about Armenia and it makes absolutely no sense. Whether or not Russia gave them weapons or sold them weapons (whatever you are trying to get at) doesn't mean the Armenian genocide didn't happen or that Turkey's government is responsible for it.

Weaponry matters a lot. Weaponry allows for more violence. And solving "the Armenian genocide" simply requires to analyze everything history and geopolitics have to offer. I do not keep trying to deflect anything, but you seem to deflect away from it. And using adjectives like "asinine" to everything you do not like me saying is not helping. Armenia is Russia's pawn, besides having other patrons. Those same patrons that are not very Turkey's friends. That just does not help to have a good enviroment to talk

If you can acknowledge that some decisions can be wrong, acknowledge that the genocide happened and that Turkey was responsible for it.

Just a big fat No. Why don't you rather acknowledge that it might have happened or it might not have happened?

It has nothing to do with Turkey? Yes it does. The Ottoman Empire ordered it. If you mean modern day Turkey, again, yes it does because they refuse to admit that it happened and grant the Armenians the acknowledgement of humanity and existence. Imagine if the U.S committed genocide against Turks and we were presenting this ****e argument to you. Would you accept that because we "have nothing to gain from saying it" we shouldn't? No need to answer. I know you would not, because it would be wrong and it would induce further bigotry against people. You know that, but you are so brainwashed by your nationalist pride you can't see it.

So we are somewhat on present-day Earth? Okay. As far as I can see, "humanity and existence" seems to be everyone's human right besides Turks. I do not see Armenians as subhumanoids. And as far as I am concerned, they do not need my acknowledgement of the Armenian genocide to be humans and have a right to existence. There is no ill-will at all towards Armenia.

But Turks are brainwashed and you are not. noted

And most countries teach a very basic history for other countries. No one is taught an extensive history on foreign countries, as far as I'm aware. What they should learn as a basis though is when another country does something so monumentally monstrous everyone needs to know about it. For example the Armenian genocide, the Greek genocide, Assyrian genocide, the Holocaust, and all world wars.

Armenian genocide, the Greek genocide, Assyrian genocide blablabla
Come on, are you even trying?

Germany not educating its people on all of the "wonderous things" of Turkey doesn't mean it's propaganda against Turkey. Good lord! ?

I will try not to use sarcasm anymore.

?

This thread in short:
Bunch of non-Turks that have been brainwashed by their respective countries accuse Turks of being their own definiton of nationalist and also brainwashed after not acknowledging the Armenian genocide. Great discussion. You are right and Turks are wrong, got it. Any other way is simply not possible I guess.

Not now, but back in the 60s when historians were looking into both, the hundreds of high ranking Nazis that the allied powers failed to execute then went around spreading myths about the clean Wehrmacht which persist to this day amongst the public. Your average person has no idea that a lot of what they know about the holocaust is directly from HIAG, which was an organisation of SS officers bent on maintaining their image.

At the same time there were discussions about the Holomodor in the west which concluded that it was a deliberate attempt by the politburo to kill millions of Ukrainians. But like most healthy discussions, this was completely separate from the holocaust or nazi war crimes in eastern europe. Only someone who feels personally attacked by the accusations of the Holomodor (i.e. a Soviet Nationalist or a tankie) would feel the need to connect the two, or draw attention to the other and say "aHA! you aren't talking about X, are you???"

If X has to do with the Holomodor somehow, doesn't matter how small the correlation is... I would like to hear that.
And after all, I do feel personally attacked. If you do not for your country or nation or people or whatever, that is your business.
If one starts talking about a Greek genocide but not about a Turkish genocide, that is simply bad faith.

Our target is not you or your sense of self, but the government of Turkey. If you feel like that has anything to do with "your turkish ancestors" then that is on you.

That is a lie. I do not support the current government. If the next is the one I have voted for, I will. But the politics of Turkey will hardly change, no matter who gets chosen. And in democracies, usually people choose the government.
If it has nothing to do with Turkish ancestors, which might be part of ones sense of self, as could be the government, then I guess we can move on. (To be honest, I feel like you either meant more or I did not understand what you meant at all. If you care to explain, I'd try again)

Have you ever thought that maybe, just maybe, the fact that you do not know a single Armenian leaves you vulnerable to others giving you a mental picture of them that doesn't necessarily match the truth? It is very difficult to hate an entire category of people when you have even one or two friends who belong to that group.

Yes indeed. But I do not know Pashinyan, Macron or Putin personally, what do I do now?
It is actually very easy to hate an entire category of people when the entire category of people seems to strive for something hateful. As I do not know anyone like that personally, I can only assume how many people exist in that category while how many there really are.

People are people. There's not any ethnicity or nationality that makes you inherently good or bad.

Inherently, never. That we can agree on.

 

[Kentucky 『 ＨＥＩＧＵＩ 』 James]

If one starts talking about a Greek genocide but not about a Turkish genocide, that is simply bad faith.

It's not, lol. This is a thread about Armenian genocide denial. Nobody has to then bring up other events just to prove that theyre not a NATO turk-hater or whatever. If there was a thread about anti ottoman violence in the balkans and I decided to ask why people arent talking about the Armenian genocide, people are absolutely justified in calling me a deflector and asking why I feel the need to bring that up.

That is a lie. I do not support the current government.

I know, almost nobody who speaks english does. My point is that a lot of the pushback in this thread seems to come from people who can't disentangle their own self-image and reverence for their ancestors from the country they live in.

 

[Ser Jon]

I am not? I am speaking solely for myself first and foremost, while everything else are assumptions, simple because of its nature.

Yes you have. Multiple times. The latest being:

I did not and do not plan to, as I fear I would be in danger as I am not good at hiding that I am Turkish at all.

as if all Armenians are out to get you. You hate on them for what you think they think about you or what you think they intend to do to you.

Whatever you want to call it. Call it hateful then. If I end up hating most Armenians, obviously depending on their mindset of hating good Turks, so be it. Perhaps I am wrong to think that most Armenians are out to get me. Publicly, their image in my eyes ain't great and that is not because I watch Turkish news. And if you people would hate Turks for whatever reason, so be it. I am sure you have your reasons, be it right or wrong.

There you go again. Speaking on behalf of Armenians, and then justifying your hatred and distrust of them against what you think they feel about you. If you don't hate them or most of them, you sure do have a very bizarre way of showing it.

And yes, you are wrong. Your beloved Turkish government is a fearmonger and it forces that fear on you so that you hate their enemies too. And again, don't hate Turks. You don't speak for me and don't speak for Armenians.

Now that we established that I am a hateful individual, I would like to share a scenario. As a definied hateful person, the first thing that would happen if I were to understand that someone is Armenian,... you guessed it, continued interaction with the person as if they were not Armenian. Frankly, it does not matter where they are from. I simply hate those who would deserve my hate. And if I am catious because of that, am I to be judged? It is not hypocritical at all. I am to check my sources. You should check your sources. We should know whether our informations are correct or not, even from most trusted sources.

And you say most Armenians deserve your hate. You sit here and try to act like you aren't a bigoted hateful person against Armenians, and then proceed to associate them to the grand notion that they are an enemy and by large, act in ways that directly oppose some "great Turkish image or benefit".

I don't need to check my sources—I know that they are right—and quite frankly, you don't even have sources, only your opinion. And that opinion is a deluded opinion that attacks an entire group of people because you fear them and your adoration of the Turkish government convinced you they are to be something to fear.

I know that there are ****ty humans everywhere. If you think there are more ****ty humans in Turkey, you might not be wrong. But as a German Turk, I know that Western media is also full of bull****, propaganda that you are not aware of. There is not a single thing Turkey is doing right and in Europe's interest, ever, according to the West. So if someone were to be hateful towards Turks, right or wrong, no matter... I know where it comes from.

The problem is that you think Armenians are all ****ty people because you ate up the Turkish propaganda about them. And no, I don't think Turks are ****ty people and I do not have an opinion about you simply because you are Turk. Whatever opinion I harbor for you has everything to do with how you think, not with where you are from. Stop trying to deflect to a victim stance when no one is attacking you for being Turkish.

I will try not using "all" then but "to me it seems most" on this topic. Better?

No, it isn't better. Everyone else here already knows Armenians aren't bad people because they are Armenian. You changing your own opinion from "all to most to you" means nothing. ?

I do hope that you do not feel poorly of all Turks. The fact that I believe that you could is not insane.

Yes, it is insane, as I have not once made any judgements against an entire people, even despite Turkey's government doing horrific things, something which you to this moment continue to do. I will not repeat this to you and any further attempt from you to assume I am anti-Turkish because I'm calling for Turkey to admit to its genocide against Armenians will never, in any way, indicate I hate Turks.

That you can acknowledge horrific deeds of your country is a great thing, no doubt. I can too. I simply do not agree on this topic, on the Armenian genocide, with you. That should not be then "insane", "ridiculous" or any other shaky adjective.
We could definitely use that some start understanding that killing and massacring "enemies" is wrong, no doubt.

No you can't. Which horrific deeds do you think your country did? Why won't you admit to the Armenian genocide? Rhetorical, by the way. I know why you won't. Because you read into Turkish propaganda against Armenia and believed every ounce of it.

No, it is simply insane that you deny the genocide, especially for your reasoning. Absolutely off the rails insane.

That doesn't mean Turkey should be somewhat politically forced to admit something that might not have happened. Not under the current circumstances. I would even support it being acknowledge if it didn't actually happen just for the sake of sending a message, even if everyone were lying about it. But not like this, under the current geopolitical conditions.

It did happen. Everyone but Turkey can admit it. There are dozens of books worth of recorded evidence, photos, world leaders seeing it etc etc. Until you can prove it didn't happen with more than "I don't think it happened", no one is ever going to take you seriously. If you are through deflecting, provide your evidence.

Weaponry matters a lot. Weaponry allows for more violence. And solving "the Armenian genocide" simply requires to analyze everything history and geopolitics have to offer. I do not keep trying to deflect anything, but you seem to deflect away from it. And using adjectives like "asinine" to everything you do not like me saying is not helping. Armenia is Russia's pawn, besides having other patrons. Those same patrons that are not very Turkey's friends. That just does not help to have a good enviroment to talk

No it doesn't. What Armenia has now doesn't hold any relevance to what happened from 1890-1915 and even if Armenians then had weaponry, it still doesn't hold any relevance.

Analyze history? lol Okay. Show us all how we are wrong using history and geopolitics. Go on. Or will this be another "Well, I don't know, but others do" moment? And those others being Turkish genocide deniers?

Just a big fat No. Why don't you rather acknowledge that it might have happened or it might not have happened?

Are you serious? Because evidence outstandingly proves it happened. I'm not going to hold your little hand and pat your head and lie to you that your country didn't commit a genocide when it absolutely did. I do not have to argue your crap argument for you.

Prove it didn't happen and why the overwhelming evidence we have is "all fake". Until you can, do not discuss whether or not it is real.

So we are somewhat on present-day Earth? Okay. As far as I can see, "humanity and existence" seems to be everyone's human right besides Turks. I do not see Armenians as subhumanoids. And as far as I am concerned, they do not need my acknowledgement of the Armenian genocide to be humans and have a right to existence. There is no ill-will at all towards Armenia.

But Turks are brainwashed and you are not. noted

This is incredible.

Armenian genocide, the Greek genocide, Assyrian genocide blablabla
Come on, are you even trying?

What, you mean mentioning all of the genocides conducted by the Ottoman Empire? So it isn't just the Armenians you deny, it is the Greeks, Bulgarians, Assyrians etc? Otherwise, I have no idea what you are getting at.

This speaks volumes as to what your character is.

I won't try sarcasm again.

Good. Try logical arguments instead.

This thread in short:
Bunch of non-Turks that have been brainwashed by their respective countries accuse Turks of being their own definiton of nationalist and also brainwashed after not acknowledging the Armenian genocide. Great discussion. You are right and Turks are wrong, got it. Any other way is simply not possible I guess.

You can look at documents made by Mehmed Talaat ordering deportation and murder of Armenians and think to call anyone else brainwashed? News flash kid, being Turk doesn't give you a divine right or make you right about Turkey.

You are being ridiculous.

If we are wrong, put your money where your mouth is. Prove it to us. Throwing your hands over your ears and screaming that it isn't real is not helping your case whatsoever.

Have you ever thought that maybe, just maybe, the fact that you do not know a single Armenian leaves you vulnerable to others giving you a mental picture of them that doesn't necessarily match the truth? It is very difficult to hate an entire category of people when you have even one or two friends who belong to that group.

People are people. There's not any ethnicity or nationality that makes you inherently good or bad.

Falling from that mindset would open him up to possibilities he is not comfortable with confronting.

 

[Princess Mikoto]

It's not, lol. This is a thread about Armenian genocide denial. Nobody has to then bring up other events just to prove that theyre not a NATO turk-hater or whatever. If there was a thread about anti ottoman violence in the balkans and I decided to ask why people arent talking about the Armenian genocide, people are absolutely justified in calling me a deflector and asking why I feel the need to bring that up.

Well, so you say there is no correlation, I say there is. If you were to change what you wrote, one could easily make it fit.
"As you are discussing anti ottoman violence in the balkans, here are some more examples of ottoman procedures during the Armenian genocide which they might have been doing in the balkans as well which could have been the trigger for anti ottoman violence to occure" or something like that. It all depends on the context.
If you speak about Greeks dying and labeling it a genocide, but when Turks die u don't. Weren't we just looking at humans suffering? Why is there a need to differentiate between ethnicities here?
"Hey, I feel like their might connection between these events and the way they are labeled, as they involve the same parties" is very much fair. If you don't agree with that and do not come even a little forward but rather decide to call it whataboutism and red herring whatever, without ever trying to see how an Armenian genocide could fit the big picture of politics, what do we even have to discuss?

I know, almost nobody who speaks english does. My point is that a lot of the pushback in this thread seems to come from people who can't disentangle their own self-image and reverence for their ancestors from the country they live in.

That is correct.

as if all Armenians are out to get you. You hate on them for what you think they think about you or what you think they intend to do to you.

Well if S O M E Armenians do think the way I believe they might, then yes. But that is not limited to Armenians, but involves all humans.
Do I have to justify myself further?

There you go again. Speaking on behalf of Armenians, and then justifying your hatred and distrust of them against what you think they feel about you. If you don't hate them or most of them, you sure do have a very bizarre way of showing it.

Okay I guess if I watch an Armenian video I start speaking on their behalf.

And yes, you are wrong. Your beloved Turkish government is a fearmonger and it forces that fear on you so that you hate their enemies too. And again, don't hate Turks. You don't speak for me and don't speak for Armenians.

Other Turks? Maybe. Me? No. Last time I checked, I hated their friends and was quite able to think for myself when it came to "enemies". Not that it might matter any longer at gunpoint.

And you say most Armenians deserve your hate. You sit here and try to act like you aren't a bigoted hateful person against Armenians, and then proceed to associate them to the grand notion that they are an enemy and by large, act in ways that directly oppose some "great Turkish image or benefit".

I don't need to check my sources—I know that they are right—and quite frankly, you don't even have sources, only your opinion. And that opinion is a deluded opinion that attacks an entire group of people because you fear them and your adoration of the Turkish government convinced you they are to be something to fear.

The problem is that you think Armenians are all ****ty people because you ate up the Turkish propaganda about them. And no, I don't think Turks are ****ty people and I do not have an opinion about you simply because you are Turk. Whatever opinion I harbor for you has everything to do with how you think, not with where you are from. Stop trying to deflect to a victim stance when no one is attacking you for being Turkish.

Yes yes, I know. The Turkish stance on the Armenian genocide is the only thing being attacked here, I got the message.

No, it isn't better. Everyone else here already knows Armenians aren't bad people because they are Armenian. You changing your own opinion from "all to most to you" means nothing. ?

Okay I believe I need to clarify this right now before this gets out of hand:
I am being sarcastic at some points, you might have noticed. Also when one says "all", it is very possible that one means "most". And with "to me it seems most" was not meaning "as good as 100%" but, as an approximate feeling, "70%".
I did not change my opinion. You just misunderstood, keep misunderstanding or pretend to misunderstand.

Yes, it is insane, as I have not once made any judgements against an entire people, even despite Turkey's government doing horrific things, something which you to this moment continue to do. I will not repeat this to you and any further attempt from you to assume I am anti-Turkish because I'm calling for Turkey to admit to its genocide against Armenians will never, in any way, indicate I hate Turks.

"attempt to assume" is not quite fitting, is it? You, as everyone else is, could be a potential racist. What is so insane about that? If, lets say, 1/10 of Germans are racist and I see someone on the street and say to myself "That guy might be racist with a 1/10 potential" is not wrong or insane. You, just being here, posting in this thread, puts you into a category in my head. If you are not anti-Turkish, great. That is a nice thing.

No you can't. Which horrific deeds do you think your country did? Why won't you admit to the Armenian genocide? Rhetorical, by the way. I know why you won't. Because you read into Turkish propaganda against Armenia and believed every ounce of it.

No, it is simply insane that you deny the genocide, especially for your reasoning. Absolutely off the rails insane.

Criminals killed innocent people, no doubt about that, that I can acknowledge. But for the Armenian genocide? I do not see the evidence as much convincing. Whatever that means as a non-historian.
"Why won't you admit" Well, I could acknowledge it, but I am not a criminal who is supposed to admit.
Why is it not enough for you when I would say that I am sorry that humans died during pointless conflict? It is not me who is making this personal.

It did happen. Everyone but Turkey can admit it. There are dozens of books worth of recorded evidence, photos, world leaders seeing it etc etc. Until you can prove it didn't happen with more than "I don't think it happened", no one is ever going to take you seriously. If you are through deflecting, provide your evidence.

I do not need anyone to take me seriously.

What, you mean mentioning all of the genocides conducted by the Ottoman Empire? So it isn't just the Armenians you deny, it is the Greeks, Bulgarians, Assyrians etc? Otherwise, I have no idea what you are getting at.

This speaks volumes as to what your character is.

Yours too. We are beyond the point of this thread. So I guess we can go a bit further. Do you acknowledge that there has been a Turkish genocide too? If yes, well congratulations. That is great. If not, well then I will assume you have an agenda.


I only noticed after a certain point that your tone is just pure ****.
Every argument with or without evidence against the occurance of the Armenian genocide, I am pretty sure, probably has been exhausted in this thread.
Tell you what. If you were to acknowledge a Turkish genocide, I would go on to acknowledge the Armenian genocide. As in Armenians having killed Turks. Would be just between the two us tho, as I am not the Turkish government and you not the Armenian one.
--------

Persecution of Uyghurs in China - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Nega-Brutus]

@Princess Mikoto
Is the Uyghur Genocide real, in your opinion?

 

[Princess Mikoto]

@Princess Mikoto
Is the Uyghur Genocide real, in your opinion?

Yes.

Persecution of Uyghurs in China - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Nega-Brutus]

Yes.

Why do you think that?

 

[Princess Mikoto]

I know were this is going I believe but I will play along.

Why do you think that?

I was quite unsure and not quick to come to a conclusion, as I first imagined that it could have been a case of civil war like terrorist insurgency, considering their religion and proximity to Afghanistan, fearing radicalization. But I watched VICE and a V-logger in that region which settled it for me after having heard it in the news extensively.

Persecution of Uyghurs in China - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Nega-Brutus]

I was quite unsure and not quick to come to a conclusion. But I watched VICE and a V-logger in that region which settled it for me after having heard it in the news extensively.

What is the descriptive value of acknowledging it as a genocide, to you personally? What does it matter to you?

 

[Princess Mikoto]

What is the descriptive value of acknowledging it as a genocide, to you personally? What does it matter to you?

Quite a bit, but far not enough. Especially that the Turkish government has been supportive of China is unacceptable.
Acknowledging that it is a genocide is nice, no doubt. It creates a sentiment that such a thing will not be watched silently but...
being vocal about it does not change much apparently too. China is genociding to this second and will keep doing it unless neccessary measures by the UN, like at the Korean War, are taken. Having it on paper is not enough. I fear it will be very soon too late to safe anyone, as they will be dead, unable to return home and unable to have children due to forced sterilization.
But money unfortunately talks and ****? walks.

Armenian genocide:
A couple of months ago, I was a "denier", but currently, I am an "inbetween", whatever that tells you. But having Ser Jon's ****ty attitude is not very nice anyhow.

 

[Nega-Brutus]

@Princess Mikoto
1) Hm, my question was not how much it matters to you. My question was why it matters to you, right?

2) Before 'measures' are taken, it has to be, by necessity, acknowledged as genocide first, no?