Shall we talk about the paper armors?

[Midnitewolf]

10th-11th century would mean even less horse armors. Less archers too so less need for those armors, at least in West.

And of course 10th-11th century they didn't use pikes or glaives etc. Lances wouldn't be couched lances of later time. Instead they would be held with a one-handed over-the-head grip. Longbow as weapon of war was late 12th century thing too.

So if Bannerlord is about 10th-11th century, there is lot of things that go wrong. So based on that I would think that it is about later times. Man from 13th century could use arms and armors from 11th century, but for a man from 11th century it would be lot harder to find equipment from 13th century.

I

Well considering that there isn't actually any plate armors in the Native game the setting has to be before plate armor became common. I would say probably somewhere between 1150 and 1250 AD so what is that 12th-13th century. Plate armor wasn't really used until the 14th century.

As far as horse armor though, it was pretty well developed if you ask me. It wasn't gothic plate but it was full chain, lamellar or scale. Also as strong as bows or crossbows were, many studies have shown armor from this period was pretty effective protection. For example a Cataphract from this time period might have worn a full breastplate of Lamellar over a riveted chain hauberk over a gambeson. it would take a hell of a lot of force to get through all that and still penetrate enough to be lethal. You also have to consider a horse is a much bigger animal and something penetrating 2 inch though horse armor probably wouldn't drive deed enough to actually reach anything vital on the horse but would probably kill a man.

I guess my point is that I don't think bow and crossbows were quite as effective at actually killing well armored individuals or horses as many think they were. I think they were excellent at killing the lightly armor levies and regular troops that often made up the bulk of armies and were pretty good at wounding the more heavily armored elites, including horses, especially since even the Elites of this time tended to not wear as much protection on legs and arms as they did their core. For example, an arrow than couldn't penetrate the breast area might penetrate 2-3 inches into a more lightly armored bicep and it would likely render the arm useless which would be effective without being lethal.

In any case, I think heavy cavalry was much more effective than it is in game.

Just had a theory regarding armours and the experiences some players are having with them. Torso armour scores can get pretty high, easily absorbing at least half the damage from the most powerful weapons in the game and absorbing the damage from most of the rest. However, Arm and Leg armour scores are drastically lower, more approximating the mid-game levels of Torso armour, at best.

Are people aware of where they are getting hit? I definitely think especially Leg armour could use some improvement, especially as we can wear lower-grade mail on our legs but nothing to match later, more advanced mail armour ratings. The same applies to Arm armour, but less so since a lot of Shoulder and Torso armour overlaps the Arm slot.

Is it possible this is where the experiences around the armour being too weak is coming from? Certainly, my playthroughs usually involve me having at best a score of 20-25 coming from Leg armour, while my Torso armour can easily go above 50.

This honestly goes along with my point how arms and legs are much more lightly armored and it might be true that a lot of the damage units and the player receives comes from damage to the legs or arms. The problem is that this is a HP based game so if you take enough damage to an arm, you still die while in real life, taking 2, 3 or even 4 arrows or cuts to an arm or leg might just be painful and debilitating but not actually kill you or take quite some time to kill you.

 

[Berzerker Jay]

This honestly goes along with my point how arms and legs are much more lightly armored and it might be true that a lot of the damage units and the player receives comes from damage to the legs or arms. The problem is that this is a HP based game so if you take enough damage to an arm, you still die while in real life, taking 2, 3 or even 4 arrows or cuts to an arm or leg might just be painful and debilitating but not actually kill you or take quite some time to kill you.

That debilitation can incapacitate someone from engaging in battle, however. Otherwise are we hoping to be Knights of Ni?

I think that's something that needs to be considered, too, that a 'Wounded' result basically means you have suffered wounds that prevent you from fighting and require attention. Any sort of deep cut to the arm or leg will generally carry this result, and can even prove fatal if left unattended.

One thing a lot of people probably don't consider, and why I kind of focus on the need for improved Leg armour specifically, is that when we're on horseback this is actually the hot zone for strikes. We're generally trying to keep out of range of strikes, which means those strikes that have range to reach us are going to be at the height the weapons are being wielded, which is the height of our legs on horseback. Some of these weapons do well over 100 damage, and I haven't actually looked deeply into it but the highest Leg armour I think I've seen available is about 25.

When I'm up against a heavily armoured lord in the tournaments, I often go for their legs, not center mass.

 

[El español]

Have developers watch any real full plate armor combat?

 

[ratschbumm]

Yep - in this time period.


Now to be fair, later knights did have armored horses.


But that was later in the Medieval era. Granted there are some aspects of this game that are not strictly 11th century.

I

Most of preserved armors was tourney kind of. Or belonged to really big bosses of past who were not going to put their arse in real hand-to-hand combat, and don the armor primarily to not be shot by chance. Such armors were much heavier and tougher than designed for living and fighting with it. Typical wore out field armor was just cut to pieces for infantry brigantines, not exhibited in show case.

 

[ratschbumm]

If anyone has a sincere interest, here's some research published by the University of Exeter detailing just how powerfully destructive these bows were on the battlefield: https://www.exeter.ac.uk/news/research/title_794452_en.html

I corrected you:

If anyone has a sincere interest, here's some research published by the University of Exeter detailing just how powerfully destructive these bows were.

It I remember right, 100-year war ended not in favor of England.

 

[D0c1]

I corrected you:



It I remember right, 100-year war ended not in favor of England.

don't bother with him. he believes that longbow arrows can pierce breastplate, stones thrown by hand can trash plate armour and that medieval people had strength that can never be matched by people nowadays.

 

[ratschbumm]

don't bother with him. he believes that longbow arrows can pierce breastplate, stones thrown by hand can trash plate armour and that medieval people had strength that can never be matched by people nowadays.

Oh, so he is like my grandma who thought that typical sword weighted 8-10 kilos and our ancestors were really mighty because of it? Ok, thanks for advise.

 

[D0c1]

Oh, so he is like my grandma who thought that typical sword weighted 8-10 kilos and our ancestors were really mighty because of it? Ok, thanks for advise.

you're welcome. i forgot to mention that he'd call you a troll if you challenge his beliefs.

 

[Tajl]

As sure about that bow length as I am sure the Bayeaux Tapestry is a whole lot longer than that, and as I am sure that you are not arguing from research or with sincerity, really. You yourself should go and look at the rest of the tapestry, and see for yourself that I didn't just cite it for nothing. This is ridiculous. lol

I've indicated no desire to continue discussing this unless you can provide a level of evidence you seem to refuse to provide. As it sits you're continuing to waste my time and shouldn't expect more investment in a response than this.

So when I posted picture from your source which is inconsistent compared to what you said it is me who refuses to provide evidence? You serious???

Maybe you should check your own source. Maybe you could post picture from that Bayeaux Tapestry where there is longer bow? Of course you can not, because there is none.

 

[Tajl]

Well considering that there isn't actually any plate armors in the Native game the setting has to be before plate armor became common. I would say probably somewhere between 1150 and 1250 AD so what is that 12th-13th century. Plate armor wasn't really used until the 14th century.

I think it is hard to say what time this game is because there is equipment from different times. Armors maybe are 1150-1250 and there is no plate. That is true. But then there is pikes, glaives and longbows. Which belong to later times and of course horse armors.

As far as horse armor though, it was pretty well developed if you ask me. It wasn't gothic plate but it was full chain, lamellar or scale. Also as strong as bows or crossbows were, many studies have shown armor from this period was pretty effective protection. For example a Cataphract from this time period might have worn a full breastplate of Lamellar over a riveted chain hauberk over a gambeson. it would take a hell of a lot of force to get through all that and still penetrate enough to be lethal. You also have to consider a horse is a much bigger animal and something penetrating 2 inch though horse armor probably wouldn't drive deed enough to actually reach anything vital on the horse but would probably kill a man.

I guess my point is that I don't think bow and crossbows were quite as effective at actually killing well armored individuals or horses as many think they were.

Armor vs missile weapon I agree.

I think horse armors did exist, but they were only used by eastern cataphrach. In west they were not used because massed archers didn't exist yet, so they were not needed enough to justify their cost. A good armor for a horse would cost much more than similar of armor for a man. It was not problem for early cataphrachs, because they were top of their very rich society, but for everyone else, it was not so easy.

Later Byzantine started to lose their wars and relied more to mercenaries. Cataphrach were on decline. Of course Empire in the game probably doesn't have same financial problems Byzantine had so their Cataprach can still have the best horse armors possible, but if every horse have horse armor, then it is not 13th century anymore.

In any case, I think heavy cavalry was much more effective than it is in game.

I think main problem for heavy cavalry in game is that AI is not that good using it and "not very good" is huge understatement.

Of course if armors would work that would help too, but horses would need changes too or it would cause another balance problem. Even without working armors horses in are like tanks. In addition to that you can easily control horse while using 2 h weapon like glaive. It would be quite hard to train horse so that you would be able control it with just your legs and then training it to ignore your weight shifts when you are using your weapon.

 

[Berzerker Jay]

Have developers watch any real full plate armor combat?

There are some major differences between what you see in those videos and what you would see on an actual battlefield. They follow strict and rather extensive rules for the nerfing of weapons, including:

"1.5.1. The humanization is rounding of percussion edges of any blade and staff weapon which is executed in a plane, it is to correspond to the radius of 1 Euro coin. Such rounding is necessary for all the kinds of a weapon.

1.5.2. The edges of all the striking parts of any weapon are to be rounded as a bevel and to be not less than 2 mm wide (including any possible chips and notches).

1.5.3. The edges of shields are to be trimmed with a thick (not less than 3-4 mm) leather.

Only steel shields such as buckler or forged round shields with forge-rolled edges can be steel trimmed.

Important! Front blows with the edge of steel shields are prohibited!!!

These data concerned the admission of the weapon to the event can be toughened by the event Organizers to observe the safety requirements.

1.6. All the offensive and protective arms are to pass the admission of the technical historical committee which is specially appointed for the event. Meanwhile the fighters are to care about the protectability and impact resistance of the all protective elements.

1.7. The list of the authorized kinds of arms and the technical requirements to ones:

Weight characteristics (maximal total weight of a weapon ready-fitted and in a ready state is indicated, accepted error is +300 g).

Blade weapon

1.7.1.Single-handled swords, sabers, broadswords – maximal weight is 1600 g

1.7.2. Falchions – 1800 g

1.7.3. Hand and a half sword (total length is up to 1400 mm), swords, sabers, broadswords – maximal weight is 2500 g

1.7.4. Two-handled swords XIV-XV cent. Maximal weight is 3500 g

Staff weapon

1.7.5. Single-handled: axes – maximal weight 1300 g; maces and six-flanged mace – maximal weight is 1000 g.

Important! For axes: the length of a crashing part of an axe blade is to be not less than 7 cm!!!

Important! For maces: all the maces are to be ONLY on a wood handle and with no sharp edges!!!

1.7.6. Hand and a half: axes, poleaxes and other similar weapons (with a total weight of not less than 1 m) – maximal weight is 2300 g

1.7.7. Two-handled: halberds and similar kinds of a weapon (with a total length more than 1400 mm) – maximal weight is 3000 g.

Heavier weapons or just thrust weapons are not admitted to use in historical medieval battles.

1.8. One authorizes any armor which has historical analogues of the period XIII – XVI cent. It is to be made out of authentic materials, to have the appropriate thickness of a protective material as well as to have good aesthetic appearance. All the items of protective arms are to correspond to the technical requirements.

Technical requirements to protective arms:

1.8.1. The fighter’s head is to be protected with a metal helmet. The steel of the helmet is to be not less than 2 mm thick

1.8.2. The fighter’s helmet is to be equipped either with a tight padding or with a well quilted padded cap not less than 3 cm thick or a leather pendant with a quilted padded cap from 1 cm thick.

1.8.3. The fighter’s body is to be covered with lamellar armor or riveted chainmail

1.8.4. Apart from armor the fighter’s body is to be equipped with an underarmor protection (a quilted jacket, a wool gown, a padded shirt, etc.) which covers the entire torso or the armor is to have a quilted undercoat.

1.8.5. The fighter’s neck is to be mandatory covered with a steel armor element. For chainmail type of protection one authorizes only riveted chainmail web with additional hidden steel protection under it. The neck from behind is to mandatory have additional underarmor protection (a quilted or padded pelerine of a neck guard, a special collar or a cushion padding to a steel neck protection) not less than 3 cm thick.

1.8.6. The fighter’s hands are to be protected with gloves or mittens which have historical analogues. A hand protection is to mandatory have steel lamellar or chainmail percussive surface. Beside steel one authorizes the usage of any authentic materials.

1.8.7. The participation in HMB only in a quilted armor is authorized only when the fighter has a special permission from the event organizers.

1.8.8. The entire spine is to be covered with a steel protection with a mandatory quilted or padded underarmor not less than 3 cm thick.

1.8.9. A shin is to be covered with a steel protection from the front and the sides; from behind it is to be protected with steel or at least quilted or padded pants or protective insets.

1.8.10. The armor is to provide a head, a neck, a spine and joints qualitatively in any fighter’s position.

1.8.11. Any fighter’s limb joints are to be protected with an armor element.

1.8.12.A fighter’s groin is to be protected with armor elements or special hidden groin protection.

1.8.13. In case if a fighter’s protective complex in terms of the correspondence to historical analogues misses historically based elements of the given zones. These zones are to be safely covered with a hidden protection which is not registered visually and made of authentic materials. "

So as you can see, this game is designed to not break through armour or otherwise harm the wearer, where on the battlefields our game represents that is exactly the opposite of the objective in design.

 

[Berzerker Jay]

I corrected you:

I am not aware of any such correction.... If so, you might want to take that up with the University of Exeter, as well. Not really sure what to do with your comment. The 100 Years War was most especially turned through the use of cannons against archer formations to disperse them.... If the French saw to it to employ this tactic in order to win the battle, that might actually speak to the formidability of archers more than you care to acknowledge.

 

[Berzerker Jay]

don't bother with him. he believes that longbow arrows can pierce breastplate, stones thrown by hand can trash plate armour and that medieval people had strength that can never be matched by people nowadays.

You obviously have some severe butthurt to misrepresent my views so sorely.

I argued that rocks thrown by hand can concuss through armour, and yes, eventually enough rocks would trash plate armour. The strength people had back then, according to my claim, is well evidenced and if you're too daft to operate by evidence and instead opt for wishful thinking, well I'm afraid that says more about you then. Finally, to the only relevant thing you're saying to my points, bodkin arrows are designed to pierce armour.

All in all, I have to say this one comment has me viewing you in an entirely new respect, and I don't mean that positively. I mean I have little respect for your intelligence, and you need to stop addressing me.

 

[Berzerker Jay]

Oh, so he is like my grandma who thought that typical sword weighted 8-10 kilos and our ancestors were really mighty because of it? Ok, thanks for advise.

Don't let yourself be as much of an idiot as he is. I hope you're not so gullible to believe such a pathetic and butthurt attempt at defamation. Would say about as much about you as it does about him.

 

[El español]

There are some major differences between what you see in those videos and what you would see on an actual battlefield. They follow strict and rather extensive rules for the nerfing of weapons, including:

"1.5.1. The humanization is rounding of percussion edges of any blade and staff weapon which is executed in a plane, it is to correspond to the radius of 1 Euro coin. Such rounding is necessary for all the kinds of a weapon.

1.5.2. The edges of all the striking parts of any weapon are to be rounded as a bevel and to be not less than 2 mm wide (including any possible chips and notches).

1.5.3. The edges of shields are to be trimmed with a thick (not less than 3-4 mm) leather.

Only steel shields such as buckler or forged round shields with forge-rolled edges can be steel trimmed.

Important! Front blows with the edge of steel shields are prohibited!!!

These data concerned the admission of the weapon to the event can be toughened by the event Organizers to observe the safety requirements.

1.6. All the offensive and protective arms are to pass the admission of the technical historical committee which is specially appointed for the event. Meanwhile the fighters are to care about the protectability and impact resistance of the all protective elements.

1.7. The list of the authorized kinds of arms and the technical requirements to ones:

Weight characteristics (maximal total weight of a weapon ready-fitted and in a ready state is indicated, accepted error is +300 g).

Blade weapon

1.7.1.Single-handled swords, sabers, broadswords – maximal weight is 1600 g

1.7.2. Falchions – 1800 g

1.7.3. Hand and a half sword (total length is up to 1400 mm), swords, sabers, broadswords – maximal weight is 2500 g

1.7.4. Two-handled swords XIV-XV cent. Maximal weight is 3500 g

Staff weapon

1.7.5. Single-handled: axes – maximal weight 1300 g; maces and six-flanged mace – maximal weight is 1000 g.

Important! For axes: the length of a crashing part of an axe blade is to be not less than 7 cm!!!

Important! For maces: all the maces are to be ONLY on a wood handle and with no sharp edges!!!

1.7.6. Hand and a half: axes, poleaxes and other similar weapons (with a total weight of not less than 1 m) – maximal weight is 2300 g

1.7.7. Two-handled: halberds and similar kinds of a weapon (with a total length more than 1400 mm) – maximal weight is 3000 g.

Heavier weapons or just thrust weapons are not admitted to use in historical medieval battles.

1.8. One authorizes any armor which has historical analogues of the period XIII – XVI cent. It is to be made out of authentic materials, to have the appropriate thickness of a protective material as well as to have good aesthetic appearance. All the items of protective arms are to correspond to the technical requirements.

Technical requirements to protective arms:

1.8.1. The fighter’s head is to be protected with a metal helmet. The steel of the helmet is to be not less than 2 mm thick

1.8.2. The fighter’s helmet is to be equipped either with a tight padding or with a well quilted padded cap not less than 3 cm thick or a leather pendant with a quilted padded cap from 1 cm thick.

1.8.3. The fighter’s body is to be covered with lamellar armor or riveted chainmail

1.8.4. Apart from armor the fighter’s body is to be equipped with an underarmor protection (a quilted jacket, a wool gown, a padded shirt, etc.) which covers the entire torso or the armor is to have a quilted undercoat.

1.8.5. The fighter’s neck is to be mandatory covered with a steel armor element. For chainmail type of protection one authorizes only riveted chainmail web with additional hidden steel protection under it. The neck from behind is to mandatory have additional underarmor protection (a quilted or padded pelerine of a neck guard, a special collar or a cushion padding to a steel neck protection) not less than 3 cm thick.

1.8.6. The fighter’s hands are to be protected with gloves or mittens which have historical analogues. A hand protection is to mandatory have steel lamellar or chainmail percussive surface. Beside steel one authorizes the usage of any authentic materials.

1.8.7. The participation in HMB only in a quilted armor is authorized only when the fighter has a special permission from the event organizers.

1.8.8. The entire spine is to be covered with a steel protection with a mandatory quilted or padded underarmor not less than 3 cm thick.

1.8.9. A shin is to be covered with a steel protection from the front and the sides; from behind it is to be protected with steel or at least quilted or padded pants or protective insets.

1.8.10. The armor is to provide a head, a neck, a spine and joints qualitatively in any fighter’s position.

1.8.11. Any fighter’s limb joints are to be protected with an armor element.

1.8.12.A fighter’s groin is to be protected with armor elements or special hidden groin protection.

1.8.13. In case if a fighter’s protective complex in terms of the correspondence to historical analogues misses historically based elements of the given zones. These zones are to be safely covered with a hidden protection which is not registered visually and made of authentic materials. "

So as you can see, this game is designed to not break through armour or otherwise harm the wearer, where on the battlefields our game represents that is exactly the opposite of the objective in design.

In this game, a peasant with a rusty razor blade can easily kill a full plate armor knight... i know there is differences, but camon what we speaking about here is that armor doesn't really make much difference in the game. as ALL weapons seem to go through in all parts of the body that has hits. in MandB, and super cheap wood board (shield) can block incoming attacks, but steel armor don't, is a game, yes , but I obvious that need some work. Armours should be much more effective, and much more valuable.

 

[Berzerker Jay]

In this game, a peasant with a rusty razor blade can easily kill a full plate armor knight...

Umm...in this game there is no such thing as a full plate armor knight.

 

[Berzerker Jay]

The 100 Years War has been mentioned repeatedly, even though it's set centuries after this game's time period. It occurred to me it might be worth mentioning that THESE are the French troops that were succumbing to English archers up until the French started fielding cannon to disperse their formations. They are outfitted in armour that would be considered fairly high-tier by our game's standards.

 

[El español]

Umm...in this game there is no such thing as a full plate armor knight.

ok , we understand that for you is fine, that anyone with any kind of weapon can slice through any amours like is made of tin, for some people , we would like a little tiny bit of realist and complexity to the game.

 

[vonbalt]

I just played warband again for a while to test the armors, low-med tier armor play similar to bannerlord but a high end armor (40+ rating) is quite formidable, i was able to take some 10 hits before dying from side arms like swords, daggers, stones etc.

Two-handers and ranged were more deadly of course but not to the jedi levels of Bannerlord, it felt fair the amount of damage i was taking for such weapons instead of being one/two hit killed by arrows or Menavlion/billhooks of doom.

 

[Berzerker Jay]

ok , we understand that for you is fine, that anyone with any kind of weapon can slice through any amours like is made of tin, for some people , we would like a little tiny bit of realist and complexity to the game.

lol.... Don't be so dishonest and hostile. Yes, for me it is fine that plate armour does not exist centuries before it actually existed, and I find it amusing you try to misrepresent my views as being anti-realist while yours are straight out of fantasyland. Complexity isn't offered by rendering armour OP, just because some people want the ego-boost of playing hard difficulty levels while they are not actually able to contend with the difficulty levels they are setting.

The people detracting from my statement all have one thing in common -- a sheer lack of evidence while ignoring every bit of evidence I've supplied. If you're one of these, maybe miss me with that, because I no longer have much patience for that brand of butthurt.