1.5.5 Balance and Further Changes

[AVRC]

Hey all,

I wanted to take a moment and give an update about the current balance situation and some of the changes we are planning.

SKIRMISH

Faction	Match Win Rate	Round Win Rate
aserai	0.5	0.5
battania	0.52	0.52
empire	0.48	0.49
khuzait	0.49	0.5
sturgia	0.5	0.5
vlandia	0.51	0.5

Since the update there have been roughly 5k matches and the baseline balance seems to be pretty good. Obviously these may be slightly different for varying skill levels but there is no outlying over/under powered faction as of now.

There are a few over performing and underperforming troops for which we are analyzing the analytics further. We will be addressing those with a near future hotfix most probably.

CAPTAIN

Faction	Match Win Rate	Round Win Rate
aserai	0.41	0.43
battania	0.52	0.51
empire	0.48	0.49
khuzait	0.48	0.49
sturgia	0.58	0.55
vlandia	0.53	0.52

Unfortunately Captain is not as solid as Skirmish at the moment after a similar number of matches. We are going over the analytics to pin point the problems. We are also working to identify issues with performance of AI troops.

A balance adjustment patch is being compiled and will be hotfixed as soon as we are done.

SOME UPCOMING STUFF

• Troop balance changes - as mentioned above
• Cavalry Perk changes and Horse adjustments - Similar to what we did with Ranged Units, giving them more troop type related Perks and removing unused perks
• Captain - Reverting some of the Order Command key mappings
• Captain - Adjusting Formation Walking Speeds
• Captain - Slow Walking bug after death - Fixed
• Adjusting swing speeds of melee weapons - Mainly slowing down maces slightly
• Improving Spear-Mount interactions - Infantry is not effective enough vs Cav, we are working on adjustments to make Spears more effective against mounts.
• Adjustments to Skirmishers - Most Skirmishers are still too weak and do not fill their role
• Captain - Improvements to AI weapon selection
  Planned
• Captain - Improvements to Cav AI
• Captain - Improving AI abuse situations. Would be really helpful if we can get videos of these to forward to programmers. @Ling* and anyone else who can help.

This is not everything being worked on obviously, just some points I wanted to bring up related to balance.

 

[Mazewind]

Thank you for this really quality thread ! It's good to know you're using stats to balance the game and I really appreciate the effort about Spear-Mount interactions which is really important now we (inf) don't have throwables anymore

 

[Mabons]

• Adjustments to Skirmishers - Most Skirmishers are still too weak and do not fill their role

Can't really comment on anything else(thank for update), but I just wanted to say that the Battanian Wildling and Sturgian Brigand both feel great to play right now, and it's because of 3 things:
1) The option to triple spawn them with careful eco management
2) Great melee weapons with default shield allows you to fight other inf and push archers
3) Throwing spear that deals with cav either in melee or by throwing

Yeah you can triple spawn all the skirmisher classes if you want but they lack one of the other things that those two have. Empire Recruit really needs the shield to be default, it's not even that great a shield but it's still a shield. Aserai Skirmisher needs a strong throwable like the others do, something that can be a deterrent to cav.

Khuzait doesn't have a skirmisher but I think the Spear Infantry with the throwing spear feels quite similar to how the Wildling and Brigand play right now, if only it was 120g so we could triple spawn it again.

 

[Tryerror]

Thank you very much.
I just write here to ware awareness on both sides, that the skirmish statistic is in public - not competitive- gaming WITHOUT Beast Classlimit which buffs Khuzait.
I think Cav is at a good spot right now. Since Heavy Inf doesnt have any throwing anymore, and as far as i understood wont get it back, they need something else against cav. How about that singleplayer Spearhook that takes down the knight? Might be something.
Archers Speed, Melee Capizity and especially X-Bow reload time should be overworked, if you ask me that is xD. (Or simply give Archers 50 Start HP that works too). But for know i am glad, that shooting a bow doenst feel like shooting a gun anymore. Thats why I am optimistic^^.

 

[SuperBroHeroFella]

Thanks so much for the update in-betweemn!

• Captain - Reverting some of the Order Command key mappings

Will we have a choice for the layout? Both have their advantages I guess.

Also, are there any future plans for INF spears & polearms handling? So often it feels like the spear tip is a cushion, it really doesn't feel nice to play with. Thanks!

 

[hoonii]

if only it was 120g so we could triple spawn it again.

This would fix a big problem for Khuzait...
I appreciate you letting us know about the upcoming stuff and statistics but isn't 6 man stack vs randoms are also counted in? If that so even Khuzait and Sturgia can easily win against Empire or Vlandia with a 6 man against randoms and Vlandia-Empire would smash Sturgia-Khuzait usually in Beast or something. Idk if you did but maybe you should also take into consideration of pickups screenshots?
Keep up the good work.

 

[Gsälzbär]

They should use all of the data, pickup and Beast have classlimits wich will change the statistics too much. TW's goal is to balance the classes that the limits will not be necessary anymore. It's really hard to accomplish that (nearly impossible I'd say) but we will see

 

[Shatti]

Improving Spear-Mount interactions - Infantry is not effective enough vs Cav, we are working on adjustments to make Spears more effective against mounts.

medium length spears worked better than the long spears
i would say:
- bring the medium length spears back.
- let the speed of the horse affect spears damage a little more. ( not all the way up, just painful enough )
- reduce the glancing a little bit more.
and we are golden

PS: i made threads before about adding swings for spears to give them a chance in a duel 1v1
consider that please, there is no reason to use spears 2 handed, they are just worst.

 

[Mute Zarathustra]

• Captain - Reverting some of the Order Command key mappings

Is this really needed? Not that I liked the change at all, but after learning it this just means I have to learn it again.
Allowing users to map out their own command keys would be much better.

 

[hoonii]

- bring the medium length spears back.

Any experienced cav player, with some knowledge of weapon statistics, will be able to outrange medium spears with lances, only thing medium spears would be good for would be unexpected thrusts. If you enter a 1v1 as infantry against cav with long spear or lance with you having a medium spear you will probably lose and get outranged multiple times. If they add medium spears as an alternative to long spears so you have to choose between either long or short spear it would be interesting but I don't think medium spears have a place in heavy infantry class anymore.

 

[Shatti]

long spears glances a lot against horses,
also they are a downgrade in infantry vs infantry fights

If they add medium spears as an alternative to long spears so you have to choose between either long or short spear it would be interesting

"choice" would be a good solution, but remember
we are restricted to a class system.
so overall medium length spears are better "specially in captain mod with the npc troops"

 

[hoonii]

long spears glances a lot against horses,
also they are a downgrade in infantry vs infantry fights

Still medium length spears(around 160-180 reach I believe) will get outranged by lances(around 190-207 or something) so easily and only place it would be useful will be group fights when enemy cav is busy and you catch him off guard or help your team mates as support infantry; medium spear really is useful in group fights. If they fix the glancing issue, which they mentioned here, long spears should be viable.

"choice" would be a good solution, but remember
we are restricted to a class system.
so overall medium length spears are better "specially in captain mod with the npc troops"

Idk much about captain mode but about class system restriction, we all know TW is not going to remove it so best solution to it would be adding more perks=more customization. Maybe they can add one or two more perks per row so it gets interesting.

 

[Horatius]

@AVRC can you see the rates for clan wars? I think those would be very interesting too.

Knuzait isn't too bad in regular skirm as the archer can carry a bit but this becomes way harder in clan wars. 120g for the knuzait inf would be great I think.

 

[Terco_Viejo]

Would you be so kind as to clear up this doubt for me please?
I would like to understand this.

Captain - Improvements to AI weapon selection
Planned

Is it going to be through the long acclaimed Weapon Change button or is it going to be an automated AI tuning where the player has no control?

 

[Sral23]

medium length spears worked better than the long spears
i would say:
- bring the medium length spears back.
- let the speed of the horse affect spears damage a little more. ( not all the way up, just painful enough )
- reduce the glancing a little bit more.
and we are golden

PS: i made threads before about adding swings for spears to give them a chance in a duel 1v1
consider that please, there is no reason to use spears 2 handed, they are just worst.

PLEASE NO!
if you play cav, the long spears work way better than the short spears, if you play inf, the long spears work way better against horses than short ones.
I believe easiest fix to that would be to seperate skirmish loadouts and captain loadouts but what can you do ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

and to the point with 2h spears, Kontos works great as anti cav, is just bull**** if the enemies have archers, in inf fight it is really helpful as supporting role, I saw whole teamfights getting turned around by one guy with a 2h spear because he could easily do 70+dmg to heavy armored varyag

 

[BrumBrum]

PLEASE NO!
if you play cav, the long spears work way better than the short spears, if you play inf, the long spears work way better against horses than short ones.

The long spears may be better at stopping the cav but after the stoppage you max 30 dmg with it, which is just too little in the current cavalry meta. Short spears work wonders in infantry fights and are way better than longer spears because they're faster, they glance less off of targets and are more agile in general. Also, after you stop the cav, you do about the same damage as if you were using a long spear. So my stance is, that the long spears should be changed back to short spears because they were more effective and more well-rounded than long spears.

Can't really comment on anything else(thank for update), but I just wanted to say that the Battanian Wildling and Sturgian Brigand both feel great to play right now, and it's because of 3 things:
1) The option to triple spawn them with careful eco management
2) Great melee weapons with default shield allows you to fight other inf and push archers
3) Throwing spear that deals with cav either in melee or by throwing

Yeah you can triple spawn all the skirmisher classes if you want but they lack one of the other things that those two have. Empire Recruit really needs the shield to be default, it's not even that great a shield but it's still a shield. Aserai Skirmisher needs a strong throwable like the others do, something that can be a deterrent to cav.

Khuzait doesn't have a skirmisher but I think the Spear Infantry with the throwing spear feels quite similar to how the Wildling and Brigand play right now, if only it was 120g so we could triple spawn it again.

I disagree with you. Firstly, the Aserai skirmisher's have the best javelins in the game. The jereed still does about 50 damage on hit (Most of the time) and they can be used really well in melee as well. Maybe a price decrease to the skirmisher could be good (From 120 to 110) but I'm not sure if it's needed. Secondly, the Khuzait spear infantry's price is good at where it is. The spear infantry has the best or second best mace in the game (yes it's slow, but the damage output makes up for it). The mace allows khuzait inf to reliably deal good damage in infantry fights which is desperately needed, because they're a squishier than heavy infs. Also, if you have max gold, you can have a triple spawn which sometimes wins you a round.

 

[Shatti]

Still medium length spears(around 160-180 reach I believe) will get outranged by lances(around 190-207 or something) so easily and only place it would be useful will be group fights when enemy cav is busy and you catch him off guard or help your team mates as support infantry; medium spear really is useful in group fights. If they fix the glancing issue, which they mentioned here, long spears should be viable.

if you play cav, the long spears work way better than the short spears, if you play inf, the long spears work way better against horses than short ones.

both comments are true in relation to cav, if they reduce the glancing the long spears would work better.
but i'm thinking in a bigger picture,
going towards this direction will make spears a niche weapons used against cav only.
which i find it a bad design choice.
anyhow i think i will agree to disagree, i'm burnout talking about this !!

 

[BrumBrum]

both comments are true in relation to cav, if they reduce the glancing the long spears would work better.
but i'm thinking in a bigger picture,
going towards this direction will make spears a niche weapons used against cav only.
which i find it a bad design choice.
anyhow i think i will agree to disagree, i'm burnout talking about this !!

On the contrary, the spear will get used in infantry fights more, than just being used to fend off cav(Most of the time) or poke enemy infs for 15 dmg

 

[Hairless]

Adjustments to Skirmishers - Most Skirmishers are still too weak and do not fill their role

Can you explain how are they to weak? 4 javs and a throwing spear on both wildling and brigand seems more than enough, 8 javs recruit also is very strong. Only Aserai skirmisher might not see enough play cuz the way Aserai is designed with 3 tribal spawns doesnn't leave much space for skirmisher to be usable.

 

[Super Jew]

• Captain - Improving AI abuse situations. Would be really helpful if we can get videos of these to forward to programmers. @Ling* and anyone else who can help.

What do you mean by this?