Were thrown weapons nerfed too much?

[AndrewArt]

I didn't play multiplayer in a while, but what was the point of nerfing thrown weapons this badly? You hit a cavalry unit that runs toward you with an axe/javelin and it deals 25 damage. Now everyone spams cavalry in siege matches and actually wins. I understand that everyone was getting one-shot by thrown weapons before, but why not halve their damage, so instead of 100 damage it deals 50? Now I don't see the point of using thrown weapons, and when I am a unit with javelins I feel like throwing them away just so they don't mess up my weapon cycling, because I am more useful as a meatshield/infantryman helping my team than sitting away and throwing a weapon. Atm it feels like crossbows are best, then archers, and way lower we have thrown weapons. If I have to hit someone with 4 throwing axes in order to kill them, what is the point of them? In a game where personal skill matters most, softening up 25 damage off an opponent is nearly useless when if you outskill him you can kill him in a few melee swings. Or shoot them twice with arrow/crossbow. And it's also a fairly fast-paced game, so trying to hit someone with throwing weapons feels like a massive waste of time (especially in sieges).Thrown weapons are the lowest range of all ranged weapons, so why are they also the least significant damage-wise?

 

[Ananda_The_Destroyer]

I don't know what they did but maybe it's some damage calc changes that hit throwable harder then shootables. It clear in 1.5.6 that arrows are doing less damage on on average, but it's okay (and an improvement) because you have so much ammo. But if you have 3-5 throwables and then not being able to reliably kill with them because of damage changes becomes a problem. They probably need a buff separate from arrows/bolts. I don't play MP though so maybe it changes for them.

 

[TheWesterlander]

I threw a plia at a naked savage and it didn't kill it. I have the same suspicions

 

[vonbalt]

I threw a plia at a naked savage and it didn't kill it. I have the same suspicions

 

[AndrewArt]

I don't know what they did but maybe it's some damage calc changes that hit throwable harder then shootables. It clear in 1.5.6 that arrows are doing less damage on on average, but it's okay (and an improvement) because you have so much ammo. But if you have 3-5 throwables and then not being able to reliably kill with them because of damage changes becomes a problem. They probably need a buff separate from arrows/bolts. I don't play MP though so maybe it changes for them.

Yes, I do think they need a buff as well. Bows were too powerful, now crossbows seem too powerful (but they're more enjoyable than bows for me..), and throwing weapons are useless completely... I stopped playing multiplayer after the throwing weapons nerf, now I come back and nobody is using throwing weapons anymore :/ And that is not a problem? Can remove throwing weapons completely... I understand that people that voted "No", were the ones being killed by throwing weapons... probably cavalry players... or just can't dodge. Now cavalry players just have no worries, and it's sad to see. Throwing weapons were so cool, and you could easily dodge it. It was just much work to dodge them, but you could do it. If TaleWorlds halved the damage instead of making it a quarter of what it was, I'd say it would be perfect. But atm throwing weapons have no use in the game anymore... multiplayer-wise, of course. You can headshot someone with javelin and it does nothing.

 

[AndrewArt]

The funny thing is, I've died more from friendly fire than I died from throwing weapons in my games recently. I never once was killed by a thrown weapon. Even hit, I wasn't. Nobody uses them, friend or foe.

Edit: someone finally threw an axe at me. I was battanian oathsworn and my health bar barely moved though, maybe 5-10 damage at most

 

[Zarthas]

I haven't been killed by a thrown weapon since the update, and I only play Captain mode.

Thrown weapons were nerfed to appease duel servers and skirmish players.

Throwing weapons were removed from many light and all heavy infantry, except Spear Inf, because the single throwing spear was always a bad choice comparatively, or because the devs just forgot they had it. Rabble and Savages got to keep slings because there would have been Sling Riots.

This has significantly altered the game, and made perk selection just less important and interesting overall.

Removing the interesting throwing spear from Clan Warriors and replacing it with a Spear makes no sense. They have access to the superior pike, and no option to spawn with both spear and shield.

It doesn't matter if you pick throwing axes or javelins with guards, because they are both useless and literally incapable of killing any opponent (Two headshots with axes will not kill almost any class), and you should be taking pike instead.

It was a bad move to appease a small subset of players, and I hope fervently it is rescinded.

The initial design intent of "high-risk, high-reward" for throwables was exactly on the money, and they should trust their instincts. Bannerlord's throwables were a major improvement from Warband's design philosophy.

 

[AndrewArt]

I haven't been killed by a thrown weapon since the update, and I only play Captain mode.

Thrown weapons were nerfed to appease duel servers and skirmish players.

Throwing weapons were removed from many light and all heavy infantry, except Spear Inf, because the single throwing spear was always a bad choice comparatively, or because the devs just forgot they had it. Rabble and Savages got to keep slings because there would have been Sling Riots.

This has significantly altered the game, and made perk selection just less important and interesting overall.

Removing the interesting throwing spear from Clan Warriors and replacing it with a Spear makes no sense. They have access to the superior pike, and no option to spawn with both spear and shield.

It doesn't matter if you pick throwing axes or javelins with guards, because they are both useless and literally incapable of killing any opponent (Two headshots with axes will not kill almost any class), and you should be taking pike instead.

It was a bad move to appease a small subset of players, and I hope fervently it is rescinded.

The initial design intent of "high-risk, high-reward" for throwables was exactly on the money, and they should trust their instincts. Bannerlord's throwables were a major improvement from Warband's design philosophy.

I totally agree... Yes, I do think they made this nerf to appease a small amount of players in skirmish mode... it is sad to me. Someone told me in a multiplayer match that we will get a "ranged update" soon (not sure if 1.5.7 or next patch), so maybe they fix this mistake. Also I hope they rework ballista a bit and make it better, to me it feels kinda useless.. you are so vulnerable to archer fire, and it reloads so slowly, it feels pointless (multiplayer). I really loved throwing weapons before the nerf.. yeah they killed a lot of players, but if you were good at dodging you were totally fine... I never had problems, I was killed very, very rarely by thrown weapons even then. Because you have to pay attention and dodge.

It was also so satisfying to try and predict where the enemy would dodge, and sometimes you would hit them and feel so good. Yeah, maybe they were a little too strong. But why such big of a nerf, I will never understand. I throw my light javelins away. Even the improved javelins from empire recruit deal only a little over 50 damage on headshot on lightly armored unit :/ It's so dumb... crossbow insta kills... bow too I think, a headshot kills. And the biggest weapon, a javelin, doesn't? Going through your skull? I really wish they make throwing weapons relevant again... this is how you ruin games and fun, by listening to casuals that don't bother trying to improve... yes, throwing weapons felt a little too strong. But a headshot with a throwing weapon should 100% be a kill. And a body shot should be half hp (ok, throwing axes less than that and more to shield, but javelin should be more dangerous for body shots). Or if you're going to nerf thrown weapons to the ground, then don't bother forcing me to have javelins on me (empire recruit). I have to throw them out every time, thanks taleworlds... It's really not that easy to hit throwing weapons, and since horses are faster than before it's harder to hit horsemen that don't go directly at you. Meanwhile crossbow is very easy, and it deals over half hp on body shot... bows I don't know, I didn't really play anymore. It feels like crossbow 2-shots you, bows 3-shot you, and throwing weapons 4-5 shot you :/ And you don't even have that many throwing weapons, and you have to hit ALL of them. Lowest range of all man, so ridiculous. Throwing weapons should definitely be the "1shot weapon", but that will never be the case ever again probably... I hope a headshot will 1-shot though, and body damage should be higher also. Just give me 1 pilla, and stop giving me worthless small javelins at least, it's honestly a joke. They reduced amount of throwing weapons, and nerfed their damage in the ground. It's really not that hard to balance things, just use some common sense... why so many nerfs at once? 1 Give me a Pilla and make it deal 70 damage body, or kill on headshot (or horseman running at you full speed), and you only have 1, so 1 chance. Give me smaller numbers, but more effective. Why 4 worthless light javelins, ffs.. make throwing weapons fun again.

 

[flashn00b]

Nerfs were probably called for, but I think they went a little too far. That said, the light javelin concept is a pretty good one cuz the ranged damage for some melee units is a bit too high. Personally, I wanna see the Skirmisher and Clan Warrior get the light javelins since their recent lack of throwing weapon does hurt a lot.

 

[AndrewArt]

Nerfs were probably called for, but I think they went a little too far. That said, the light javelin concept is a pretty good one cuz the ranged damage for some melee units is a bit too high. Personally, I wanna see the Skirmisher and Clan Warrior get the light javelins since their recent lack of throwing weapon does hurt a lot.

Are you sure you want them to have light javelins? When one deals 25 damage tops? I am of different opinion, I really think they're useless. Even if you have a teammate fighting someone, throwing a light javelin is more risk than reward, because you can hit your teammate and get him killed, and if you hit the enemy there is no guarantee that your teammate will make use of the opportunity and kill the enemy. It's just so much better to walk a little, and help him yourself with melee, teaming up on the enemy and making it almost a certain win. Maybe you're talking about captain mode or something? Ugh, this is hurting my head. Skirmish players complain about something, captain players need something else, and siege players need something else entirely as well. It's hard, if not impossible to balance in this way. I do agree with players that said these modes should be balanced separately. Nobody uses throwing weapons in siege multiplayer anymore, so I would think the logical step is to buff throwing weapons in this mode;

 

[Firunien]

Well, it's definitely not skirmish players or duel players(I mean how do you even get to that conclusion) who called for a removal of them on all heavy inf, it seems TW wanted the light classes to be picked more often. Throwings were too strong before and more importantly omnipresent, big throwing weapons are still ok (Pila, Ash, Eastern), but others were nerfed too hard some examples :

-throwing axes
damage was more then halfed, franceska ~103 - > 44, my suggestion would be reduce stack from 3 to 2 and make damage 80 something, keep em deadly.

-light javelins
those things are a joke, just look at savage he has either 3 light javs at 25dmg or 20 stones at 16 damage thats 75vs 320dmg per package, stones even do blunt damage ?

 

[AndrewArt]

Well, it's definitely not skirmish players or duel players(I mean how do you even get to that conclusion) who called for a removal of them on all heavy inf, it seems TW wanted the light classes to be picked more often. Throwings were too strong before and more importantly omnipresent, big throwing weapons are still ok (Pila, Ash, Eastern), but others were nerfed too hard some examples :

-throwing axes
damage was more then halfed, franceska ~103 - > 44, my suggestion would be reduce stack from 3 to 2 and make damage 80 something, keep em deadly.

-light javelins
those things are a joke, just look at savage he has either 3 light javs at 25dmg or 20 stones at 16 damage thats 75vs 320dmg per package, stones even do blunt damage ?

yes, completely agree. Would be happy with 1 pilla and 2 throwing axes as my throwing weapons if they did significant damage. Light javs and axes are really a joke. Might as well give us throwing knives too, they deal the same freakin damage anyway.

 

[CrazyElf]

I think so - the throwing weapons need a buff.

 

[Firunien]

yes, completely agree. Would be happy with 1 pilla and 2 throwing axes as my throwing weapons if they did significant damage. Light javs and axes are really a joke. Might as well give us throwing knives too, they deal the same freakin damage anyway.

I think replacing those light javelins with throwing knifes would be more fitting to the damage they deal, and also pretty cool

 

[AndrewArt]

I think replacing those light javelins with throwing knifes would be more fitting to the damage they deal, and also pretty cool

yes I agree. Throwing knives are pretty dope

 

[Mabons]

Nah, when your opponent spends more time kiting to get a throwing weapon throw off because it does an insane amount of damage compared to your melee weapons then you know it's kind of ****ed. It's much better now that people don't do that ****.

 

[bm01]

Solo and multiplayer are different. At least in solo I find throwing weapons devastating when used by high tier troops (I'm playing 1.5.6, though I don't remember if something changed regarding throwing weapons). My party is 100% infantry with throwing weapons, it's very powerful on maps where I can exploit the terrain to get close (I just use autocalc for sieges).

 

[AndrewArt]

Nah, when your opponent spends more time kiting to get a throwing weapon throw off because it does an insane amount of damage compared to your melee weapons then you know it's kind of ****ed. It's much better now that people don't do that ****.

well it's no different than bowmen/crossbowmen doing that. Or from melee players backpedaling away with long weapons like menavlion/two-handers because they have reach advantage and they also avoid getting kicked if they don't play aggressively. Bannerlord generally seems to promote a very cautious/defensive way of playing, but why nerf only Thrown weapons? By this standard we should nerf all the weapons damage because people just backpedal and move away from their targets instead of forwards, and they one-hit kill people with 2handed swords and menavs/glaives still. I don't know what the solution for the backpedalling would be, but sadly throwing weapons are not fun to use anymore when even a Pila won't one-hit kill most of the time, which actually requires a little bit of skill to hit (and hope the opponent doesn't dodge), while a 2hander/menav is oftentime easy to hit and still one-shots...

I think part of the problem already was solved by lowering movement speed for players that are in combat/do actions. But other than that, only thrown weapons have received such an unfair nerf... maybe bows too, they do seem like they deal way less damage than before. Now crossbow is king in terms of damage. Still, thrown weapons have lowest range of all, and it's so unsatisfying when you hit a very long distance shot with a throwing axe (I headshotted a cavalry by predicting where he would be), and deal only 20-23 damage... If I headshot with crossbow = dead. If I headshot with arrow = at least half dead). And if I headshot with throwing weapon, which is also the hardest weapon to hit and fewest ammo count = tis but only a scratch m8. People be walking with throwing axes and javelins stuck into their bodies like they're doing Acupuncture man come on wtf.

I think the solution is simple, give fewer thrown weapons but make them have more impact. A throwing axe hit on a light armored unit should not deal so little damage as it does now (not even 50 maybe). Just give 2 throwing axes and make them more impactful, 2 javelins and make them more impactful, and then 1 Pila that can actually 1-hit people. That way there is not much "kiting", because back then we had what? 3 or 4 throwing axes? Of course there was more kiting, because you had to actually throw all those axes to be efficient or you weren't using your perk's full potential.

 

[sifis172]

i would be interested in historical and/or scientific data regarding the
effectiveness of javelins in types of armor.
but i like the concept of javelins doing a lot more damage than bows.
a reason, already mentioned is that you only have 4 or 5 of them.

 

[bm01]

i would be interested in historical and/or scientific data regarding the
effectiveness of javelins in types of armor.

I mean if we go by historical standards, arrows weren't even that great against armor. Javelins had the advantage of damaging the enemy's equipment, making shields unusable for example. The hybrid aspect (melee / ranged weapon) of javelins is also undervalued (melee damage / handling of javelins are too low in game).