HugoTheFrenchMan
Grandmaster Knight
Thanks for info!
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Information about developments at snowballing problem
- Thread starter mexxico
- Start date
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Grandmaster Knight
+1
Truth. ??Good stuff mex, I like the initiative.
Time to add a page or two of fluff and celebration for mexxico's sake.
Dabos37
Sergeant Knight at Arms
1- I think this change is pretty much needed and thank you very much for this. What abount mounted infantry speed bonus? Keep in mind that the perk "Nomadic Traditions" increases 30% mounted infantry speed bonus, so having faster mounted infantry than cavalry units with this perk could feel pretty weird (I think it won't be the case though but it is worth to check).
4- Thank you very much for increasing XP cost upgrade for higher tier units. It is certainly too easy to get T5 units currently for the player (especially in combats) and it is pretty bad to see AI lords getting tons of T5 pretty fast. A lot of people have complained about this because some kingdoms are being able to get 100% elite armies after a small peace time which are disgusting to fight. Plus it probably make worse snowballing, so great change. On the other hand, we will have for sure some player complaining about the usual "TW want us grinding looters in this game"... Some people just love how OP training system is in Warband where we are able to get tons of Swadian Knights in few days if stacking companions with training skill. I personally would prefer to see training perks a bit stronger than +1/2/3 XP per day while AI cheat being reduced, but I prefer for sure what we will get in 1.5.7 compared to what we currently have in 1.5.6 concerning AI getting T5 units too easily.
Thank you or all the work and effort, 1.5.7 looks pretty promising and 45 snowball is for sure pretty acceptable. In the future, would be great if you could add something to penalize big kingdoms. Higher influence cost to create armies or something similar.
Nalgasucia507
Squire
+1
Btw you can still make 1.5.6 tests, 20 tests before 1.5.7?
Hey Mexico
Can you make that Cavalry bonus only grant bonus map speed on plains /deserts and penalty in forests or maybe even in snow?
Same for Khuzait national perk that grant extra speed for global map parties. I am pretty sure that would affect global map balance.
Also just reminding that Sturgia speed on Snow bonus still not work.
Thanks for suggestion. I will pass this to design team. At least cavalry bonus can be removed at forests maybe (giving negative can be too harsh imo), speed of a party with high cavalry reduces too much when they enter a forest from plain / desert if we give negative. This big decrease will not be good for gameplay. However removing cavalry bonus at forests can be evaluated. Also AI do not find its path according to terrain types. So this can create small problems also.
Will check Sturgia bonus. I think this is not applied because we have no snow data at code for now. Will check it if we have that data on code, if it is ready and implemented (if I can learn a position is snow or not at c# parts of code) I can easily add it. Otherwise we need to wait that data to transfered c# parts.
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Well, technically speaking, 2 guys with 1 horse will travel faster than 2 guys without. Because you can switch and rest a bit while riding, therefore maintaining higher overall speed.
This does not work in the real world for bigger units however.
Because horses are no machines but animals, like humans, who can get exhausted too. There is one school of thought among military historians even which has the opinion that big groups on horses cannot move faster than pure infantry for longer periods of times. Namely because horses get exhausted more than humans through constant marches and have to rest longer to regain power.I'm not really convinced of this. When reading 19th/20th c. AD military cavalry manuals, they calculate with a higher marching capacity of pure cavalry groups for an extended period of times. And I'm positive that they knew a bit about what they wrote in the official manuals.
But I never noticed that a mix of cavalry and infantry could march faster than with infantry speed anywhere in history. It's a kind of magic in BL, so.
While I'm a stern enemy of the whole cavalry marching bonus for mixed parties, I would not appreciate such changes. Why should cavalry march slower in woods or in snow? If the forests wood be so dense, also infantry might not be able to pass at all. And in deeper snow being on a horse might even be (much) better than having to plow through the snow by foot.
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Sounds like some amazing choices for fixing the Khuzaits steamrolling. We hope that the team will agree with your decision as much as we doHere all test results we have since 1.5.4 :
According to these results we have 117 snowball score at 1.5.4, 104 at 1.5.5, 61 at 1.5.6 and I think 1.5.7 will be around 45 with new developments mentioned in last posts :
1-Reducing cavalry speed bonus to 40% from 60%. I did not get approve for this yet because I fear it to be rejected but I will apply it. Because it seems this is a must. I do not want to risk this.
2-There will be a bit higher horseman troop ratio in 7 non-Khuzait factions. Parties will tend to upgrade their troops not 50% - 50% randomly if they have 2 options they will upgrade according to troop tree to reach horseman troops more if their cavalry ratio is low.
3-Rebel clans will join weaker factions & same culture ones more instead of joining powerfull kingdoms if they succeed surviving first 30 days.
4-Reducing effects of OP 2 perks giving too much passive xp and being a side effect in povetry. Also needed xp for tier-3, tier-4 and tier-5 are a bit increased. So it will be a bit hard to reach high tiers with only passive xp.
5-30% longer preliminary phase at sieges.
6-Heart values of Khuzait villages will be a bit reduced.
7-Khuzait default policy grazing rights policy will be +0.5 loyality -0.25 hearth instead of +1 loyality +1 militia.
8-Weak kingdoms will try to face with less enemies and pay more tributes if needed. Agressiveness of kingdoms which lost lots of territory will be reduced. This is partly 1.5.1 feature but its effect will be a bit increased.
Bonus - Average war times will be 30-40% longer. This is something bad for snowball by the way because factions react slower to new wars. But 1.5.6 war durations were so short and this was effecting gameplay badly. So even it is bad for snowball this increase is need to be done. We will have 8 positive and 1 negative effect for snowball at 1.5.7
After we have 45 average snowball score this problem will be not a major issue anymore then I will start examining "Party AI Overhaul and Commands" mod first to see how they cope with party micromanagement problem (with making most players happy) then we will implement some solutions for this.
Still here we will post our results in new patches of course and discuss how things are going. However after 1.5.7 if we can reach 45 average snowball score it will be good enough to focus other problems more because I think snowball will not a major problem anymore (if some new feature do not trigger it again in future) Even this happens we will catch it because we will continue calculating snowball score after each patch.
Additional info for newcommers, how to calculate snowball score :
1-We fastforward game to year 1104 (20 years from start).
2-We count castles and towns for each faction. Rebels are not counted. Each town is counted as 2 and castles are counted 1. So we find a fief value for each faction.
3-For each faction if their fief score is out of 20-35 range we add its difference from this range. Total value is snowball score. Less is good of course.
Thanks for all participants to these tests, this helped finding out problems and see what is our current situation in each patch.
you have to control your horse and at the same time avoid things, a horse is not a car. = Forest
Snow is basically pressure and weight. The formula for pressure is Force / Area. IIRC, average horse hoof is smaller than average human feet, and the weight is much bigger when you are on a horse. in this situation force in the formula is total weight (horse + rider) and area is horse hooves. i didn't calculate it with numbers but it's probably at least double the pressure. the reason why people wear tennis racket like things while walking in snow is to increase area, if you increase area without increasing the force (the weight) the pressure will reduce
Also foot soldiers could use snowshoes or skis. Can horses use skis?
I don't think so.
TBH A bonus Sturgia speed on snow(for infantry) could be explained by skis use.
I don't think so.
TBH A bonus Sturgia speed on snow(for infantry) could be explained by skis use.
Zorion_no
Sergeant
Overall the new changes have helped tremendous on the snowballing problem.
Khuzait is no longer steamrolling, Battania in my play 17yrs so far on 1.56 Beta they still "dominate" their neighbours Vlandia, Southern Empire and Western Empire.
Khuzait and Aserai they havent tangled with, and since I'm Sturgia they decided not to go that way it seemed(read we've had 1 war, and they lost alot of land in that).
Northern Empire is down to 1 city.
Khuzait is down to 2 city and 2 castle.
Aserai and Battania is "strong".
Western Empire is still in the fight, Southern Empire is not so much in the fight, but got a few holds they havent lost in a long time.
I've noticed one thing with Aserai though, they are insane fast to capture cities, but they leave very few defenders, so they are recaptured fast.
We're talking 30-50 troops at most.
The Aserai is doing like a Blitz-krieg so they capture things in very fast pace, and if they are able to get peace, then they have those lands.
1 thing overall I think you still need to do with the Khuzait as I've touched on in other posts is that while theese new changes are great overall, it still dont change the fact that on AI vs AI the Khuzait have a tremendous bonus in their speed.
Still too strong, they are able to decide every fight, which mean they outrun the pursueing army and meet up with their other parties etc, then pounce.
I've seen it time and time again.
The speed bonus is well and good perhaps, but I still cant grasp why you are so reluctant to adjust it more though.
Ideally the perk that grants +2% speed bonus when pursuing should be buffed abit instead?
Or for fleeing/retreating parties in general they should get a debuff to their speed - maybe loss of troops from desertions or loss to enviroment.
Again I'm not talking about the speed bonus as an issue for the player, we can counter it very easy, but AI vs AI.
Khuzait is no longer steamrolling, Battania in my play 17yrs so far on 1.56 Beta they still "dominate" their neighbours Vlandia, Southern Empire and Western Empire.
Khuzait and Aserai they havent tangled with, and since I'm Sturgia they decided not to go that way it seemed(read we've had 1 war, and they lost alot of land in that).
Northern Empire is down to 1 city.
Khuzait is down to 2 city and 2 castle.
Aserai and Battania is "strong".
Western Empire is still in the fight, Southern Empire is not so much in the fight, but got a few holds they havent lost in a long time.
I've noticed one thing with Aserai though, they are insane fast to capture cities, but they leave very few defenders, so they are recaptured fast.
We're talking 30-50 troops at most.
The Aserai is doing like a Blitz-krieg so they capture things in very fast pace, and if they are able to get peace, then they have those lands.
1 thing overall I think you still need to do with the Khuzait as I've touched on in other posts is that while theese new changes are great overall, it still dont change the fact that on AI vs AI the Khuzait have a tremendous bonus in their speed.
Still too strong, they are able to decide every fight, which mean they outrun the pursueing army and meet up with their other parties etc, then pounce.
I've seen it time and time again.
The speed bonus is well and good perhaps, but I still cant grasp why you are so reluctant to adjust it more though.
Ideally the perk that grants +2% speed bonus when pursuing should be buffed abit instead?
Or for fleeing/retreating parties in general they should get a debuff to their speed - maybe loss of troops from desertions or loss to enviroment.
Again I'm not talking about the speed bonus as an issue for the player, we can counter it very easy, but AI vs AI.
What I try to say there “we can remove 60% cavalry speed bonus at forests”. So 100 footmen party will have same speed with 100 cavalry party in forest. This is only a suggestion to @Sarissofoi ’s post which he suggested giving negative bonus at both forest and snow for cavalry. I replied to his post cavalry can move with same speed with footmen maybe at forest (at snow cav should save bonus imo). This is only an idea by the way I will not apply this, will pass this idea to team maybe in future. Currently there is 60% speed bonus for cavalry parties even at forest which is not good for gameplay & not realistic.
Less number of garrisons in fiefs means owner clan is poor. When clans get poorer they lower number of troops at garrisons to collect money.
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Anushtegin
Sergeant
This does not work in the real world for bigger units however.
I'm not really convinced of this. When reading 19th/20th c. AD military cavalry manuals, they calculate with a higher marching capacity of pure cavalry groups for an extended period of times. And I'm positive that they knew a bit about what they wrote in the official manuals.
But I never noticed that a mix of cavalry and infantry could march faster than with infantry speed anywhere in history. It's a kind of magic in BL, so.
While I'm a stern enemy of the whole cavalry marching bonus for mixed parties, I would not appreciate such changes. Why should cavalry march slower in woods or in snow? If the forests wood be so dense, also infantry might not be able to pass at all. And in deeper snow being on a horse might even be (much) better than having to plow through the snow by foot.
mongol armies had spare horses, so horses gettign exhausted isn't a factor. horses would also not bump into trees as it happens in bannerlord, because animals aren't zombies but avoid obstacles.
horses going through forests is a bigger problem than infantry goign through forests not because of the ground but because of the height. riders and the lances on their back would entangle with branches of trees too much which will slow them down considerably. this is much less of a problem for infantry.
as for snow, steppe nomads would graze their horses in summer for them to get fat and campaign in winter. the campaign to subdue the rus lands was in winter, and guess who had the disadvantage...
you can't give a real historical example here because it has LOTS of different factors. and guess what? this is a game!
Anushtegin
Sergeant
snow and winter are fantasy and do not exist in real life...?
no... this is a game and it doesn't have as many factors as real life does right? So you can't just say "nomadic tribes took those lands in winter"
BTW
Will we see any changes to item prices and looting system?
Currently it is pretty ridiculous, with high tier items costing dozen of thousands of gold.
Even low level items are to costly to be honest, making farming low level bandits pretty profitable.
Essentially after beating some looters I get plenty of junk which I still can sell for pretty penny.
In my humble opinion most gains from defeating parties should be from gold, looted trade items and prisoners ransoms/rewards, horses and high level armor.
But now with current price items its pretty ridiculous when most money come from selling broken equipment and rags.
It make whole economy model redundant. Why I should even invest in caravans or workshops when beating medium size band of looters grant me x10-x20 more for practically non investments or no risk?
Will we see any changes to item prices and looting system?
Currently it is pretty ridiculous, with high tier items costing dozen of thousands of gold.
Even low level items are to costly to be honest, making farming low level bandits pretty profitable.
Essentially after beating some looters I get plenty of junk which I still can sell for pretty penny.
In my humble opinion most gains from defeating parties should be from gold, looted trade items and prisoners ransoms/rewards, horses and high level armor.
But now with current price items its pretty ridiculous when most money come from selling broken equipment and rags.
It make whole economy model redundant. Why I should even invest in caravans or workshops when beating medium size band of looters grant me x10-x20 more for practically non investments or no risk?
