I don't understand this whole "cavalry adds party speed bonus" thing. Do they transport the infantry without horses in the saddle bags to speed up the whole party? I think that larger Khuzait parties/armies being able to catch smaller enemy parties/armies while avoiding larger enemy parties/armies is one big factor for Khuzait supremacy. It has nothing (or: not much) to do with the faction bonus but with the general cavalry bonus plus the usual party composition.
So far I found only one effective solution for the Khuzait/Battania campaign problem: getting rid of one empire faction and making a western and eastern empire. Together with the removal of T5 troops from all factions and several ranged changes it made my gameplay better. However that's not a solution for the vanilla game, of course.
As far as I have seen, all the snowballing issue is related to cavalry bonus speed. I was also thinking about AI and how Khuzaits were involved in less wars than everyone, but it also has to do with cavalry bonus (because strongest kingdoms do not get war declarations too often). So, I hope this cavalry bonus gets reduced as much as possible (at least to 40% from 60%).
I am currently playing a campaign with my own mod to nerf the cavalry bonus to 40% and Battania is not OP anymore, but Khuzaits still feel pretty strong. On the other hand, in 1.5.7 we will get extra changes which probably will help more on this.
Anyway, would be great if something would also change for the AI, to make kingdoms aware of Khuzaits getting too strong and increase overall aggressiveness towards them.
As far as I have seen, all the snowballing issue is related to cavalry bonus speed. I was also thinking about AI and how Khuzaits were involved in less wars than everyone, but it also has to do with cavalry bonus (because strongest kingdoms do not get war declarations too often). So, I hope this cavalry bonus gets reduced as much as possible (at least to 40% from 60%).
I am currently playing a campaign with my own mod to nerf the cavalry bonus to 40% and Battania is not OP anymore, but Khuzaits still feel pretty strong. On the other hand, in 1.5.7 we will get extra changes which probably will help more on this.
Anyway, would be great if something would also change for the AI, to make kingdoms aware of Khuzaits getting too strong and increase overall aggressiveness towards them.
In case of snowballing Khuzaits. From my observation they exploit cavalry and faction bonuses a lot in combination with how easy influence raises. They can easily field multiple fast armiest taking multiple targets at the same time. In a few playthroughs I saw them taking 3-4 cities at the same time cause they can field 4-6 armies in mid late game. Adding speed bonuses and they can destroy other kingdom in single run.
They also gather influence faster then others cause they choose their battles and win a lot.
I don't understand this whole "cavalry adds party speed bonus" thing. Do they transport the infantry without horses in the saddle bags to speed up the whole party?
yeah lol, you are only as fast as your slowest. you shouldn't get a speed bonus unless all of your troops are cav or you have horses equal to your unmounted troops in your inventory
yeah lol, you are only as fast as your slowest. you shouldn't get a speed bonus unless all of your troops are cav or you have horses equal to your unmounted troops in your inventory
Well, technically speaking, 2 guys with 1 horse will travel faster than 2 guys without. Because you can switch and rest a bit while riding, therefore maintaining higher overall speed.
Well, technically speaking, 2 guys with 1 horse will travel faster than 2 guys without. Because you can switch and rest a bit while riding, therefore maintaining higher overall speed.
A example for good mixed army builds can be found in the De Ri Military mod. This mod gives factions a more balanced mixed tier army because it separates the troop tiers in different branches with different basic recruits. Not every recruit can be upgraded to the highest tier. The difference in tier level between the winning side and the loosing side is a contributor to the snowballing.
According to these results we have 117 snowball score at 1.5.4, 104 at 1.5.5, 61 at 1.5.6 and I think 1.5.7 will be around 45 with new developments mentioned in last posts :
1-Reducing cavalry speed bonus to 40% from 60%. I did not get approve for this yet because I fear it to be rejected but I will apply it. Because it seems this is a must. I do not want to risk this.
2-There will be a bit higher horseman troop ratio in 7 non-Khuzait factions. Parties will tend to upgrade their troops not 50% - 50% randomly if they have 2 options they will upgrade according to troop tree to reach horseman troops more if their cavalry ratio is low.
3-Rebel clans will join weaker factions & same culture ones more instead of joining powerfull kingdoms if they succeed surviving first 30 days.
4-Reducing effects of OP 2 perks giving too much passive xp and being a side effect in povetry. Also needed xp for tier-3, tier-4 and tier-5 are a bit increased. So it will be a bit hard to reach high tiers with only passive xp.
5-30% longer preliminary phase at sieges.
6-Heart values of Khuzait villages will be a bit reduced.
7-Khuzait default policy grazing rights policy will be +0.5 loyality -0.25 hearth instead of +1 loyality +1 militia.
8-Weak kingdoms will try to face with less enemies and pay more tributes if needed. Agressiveness of kingdoms which lost lots of territory will be reduced. This is partly 1.5.1 feature but its effect will be a bit increased.
Bonus - Average war times will be 30-40% longer. This is something bad for snowball by the way because factions react slower to new wars. But 1.5.6 war durations were so short and this was effecting gameplay badly. So even it is bad for snowball this increase is need to be done. We will have 8 positive and 1 negative effect for snowball at 1.5.7
After we have 45 average snowball score this problem will be not a major issue anymore then I will start examining "Party AI Overhaul and Commands" mod first to see how they cope with party micromanagement problem (with making most players happy) then we will implement some solutions for this.
Still here we will post our results in new patches of course and discuss how things are going. However after 1.5.7 if we can reach 45 average snowball score it will be good enough to focus other problems more because I think snowball will not a major problem anymore (if some new feature do not trigger it again in future) Even this happens we will catch it because we will continue calculating snowball score after each patch.
Additional info for newcommers, how to calculate snowball score :
1-We fastforward game to year 1104 (20 years from start).
2-We count castles and towns for each faction. Rebels are not counted. Each town is counted as 2 and castles are counted 1. So we find a fief value for each faction.
3-For each faction if their fief score is out of 20-35 range we add its difference from this range. Total value is snowball score. Less is good of course.
Thanks for all participants to these tests, this helped finding out problems and see what is our current situation in each patch.
According to these results we have 117 snowball score at 1.5.4, 104 at 1.5.5, 61 at 1.5.6 and I thing 1.5.7 will be around 45 with new developments mentioned in last posts :
1-Reducing of cavalry speed bonus to 40% from 60%. I did not get approve for this because I fear it to be rejected but I will apply it. Because it seems this is a must. I do not want to risk this.
good for balance, if you think like "powerful kingdoms won't accept them!" makes sense lol
everything else is great.
Edit, btw I noticed my 1.5.5 tests are so low because I sent you the total fiefs they own (didn't separate castles & cities) . I'll open those saves and calculate the total snowballing score then let you know
45 is good, are you going to try to lower that more? I don't want a fully balanced game tbh.
Can you elaborate on this? You didn't proposed it because it might get rejected but you will still do it because it's a must? Did I get it right?
good for balance, if you think like "powerful kingdoms won't accept them!" makes sense lol
everything else is great.
Edit, btw I noticed my 1.5.5 tests are so low because I sent you the total fiefs they own (didn't separate castles & cities) . I'll open those saves and calculate the total snowballing score then let you know
Yes 45 will be enough. In 1.5.6 do you feel snowball is a major gamebreaking problem still? 1.5.7 will be better than this so no need to spend more effort to make fully balanced game (this can be a must for some other games but it is not a must for M&B series). Also we need to implement other features too. So it will be enough for this problem. I think having a full balance is not that good for Bannelord too. Of course Khuzaits will be still powerfull but after 1.5.7 this problem can be only solved by giving them some negative culture bonus.
Yes I did not proposed it and will change bonus to 40% from 60%. Because sometimes some must things can be rejected without a proper reason. I do not want to take risk. This is a must and we all here see this.
About your 1.5.5 test yes this will be good then I will correct them. Yes your results seem different from other 2. So 1.5.5 average snowball score will be around 115 too.
It's not a major problem right now imo, in 1.5.6 I'd call it a minor problem, with 1.5.7 if it goes down to 45, I think it will be okay. Khuzaits can be more powerful than others, Battania Aserai or Vlandia. These are balanced right now, if you can buff Sturgia a little bit more I think everything will be okay. It will become something like "do something about Khuzaits early or they will become your final boss" you should focus more on other features from now on.
About your 1.5.5 test yes this will be good then I will correct them. Yes your results seem different from other 2. So 1.5.5 average snowball score will be around 115 too.
Yes 45 will be enough. In 1.5.6 do you feel snowball is a major gamebreaking problem still? 1.5.7 will be better than this so no need to spend more effort to make fully balanced game (this can be a must for some other games but it is not a must for M&B series). Also we need to implement other features too. So it will be enough for this problem. I think having a full balance is not that good for Bannelord too. Of course Khuzaits will be still powerfull but after 1.5.7 this problem can be only solved by giving them some negative culture bonus.
Because of your analisys I have tweaked a bit 1.5.6 like this: 30% cavalary bonus only in GetCavalryRatioModifier and Khuzait battle strength is only 90% in GetBattleAdvantage (advantage*0.9). (I did not change anything else in 1.5.6.)
This practically put Khuzait on pair with others.
This is not a good solution, I know, just information to you.
Its great that Mexxico is doing all this but for the life of me why would trying to calibrate things like Cav bonus be rejected when clearly it seems needed to balance the game? Also if things like Terrain/unit types will ultimately be included in auto-calc determinations -why calibrate anything until that is implemented as that too may completely change the victory landscape ..no?
As far as i can see -Auto Calc IS the strategy game and determine who wins and loses
It would be accepted 90% even I open it to discussion. I just not wanted to risk it by opening discussion. Problem is sometimes it can be hard to tell what we all see in data and gameplay because they usually do not read what we discuss here in 28 pages or look tables we prepared or watch streams enough to see where players suffer (at least for SP or at least for this snowballing topic). Deciders can be conservative while changing these numbers because of having fear to make things worse however if there is a problem we have to change numbers. Anyway this bonus will be reduced to 40% from 60% and we all sure its effect will be positive in gameplay and balance of world. We will see it when 1.5.7 comes. If it is not we can easily revert it, its just one number. Lets just stop discussing this here for sake of game (and me ) and move on other topics.
By the way this is speed bonus I talked about not auto calc bonus. Speed bonus of cavalry is more important than everything currently even auto calc bonus. Examine the table I shared above. At 1.5.5, 20% cavalry bonus removed from siege auto calculations but nearly nothing changed at snowballing score (@sniparsexe's 2 test results will be changed at that table (he said he counted towns and castles as 1) then snowballing score of 1.5.5 will be nearly same with 1.5.4 which is about 117). Speed bonus is more important because X men Khuzait party can catch X men other faction party if they want or they can run away if they want. So all time Khuzait parties are deciding what to happen on map. They catch weaker parties and they run away from stronger parties because of this 60% cavalry speed bonus because Khuzaits have 2-3x more cavalry ratio in their parties compared to other faction parties. Other possible solution is making all factions have similar cavalry ratio but this kills variety in game and hard to do while faction troop trees have so different cavalry ratios.
This 40% (1.5.7) - 60% (1.5.6) cavalry ratio speed bonus make Khuzaits also richer (because they could not be plundered / looted easily) and Khuzait parties to save themselves catch and loot weak enemies. While Khuzaits sieging enemy town if enemy come defence with stronger army they can give up and run away while others cannot do. So Khuzaits can save their parties while others cannot do. Because Khuzaits be richer their garrisons are bigger in their fortifications. So chain is like this : higher speed->richer lords->bigger garrisons->getting more tribute->being more richer
Even this number is reduced to 40% this problem will continue but things will be much better. Now at least X men Khuzait party speed will be nearly same with X - Y men other faction party (Y will be about 10-20 if bonus is 40% it is 20-30 at 60%, higher bonus is worse). Its a minor change but will have positive effects.
Amazing work, Mexxico. I am sure there are others at TW putting in a lot of effort, but your candor has almost single-handedly made me believe in Bannerlord again.
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