Information about developments at snowballing problem

[Worlok]

I like to add some suggestions to my previous post:
i feel that the consensus of OP ness of the Khuzait comes from their cultural speed bonus + extra speed bonus based on having more cavalry and the bonus to cavalry in autocalc simulations.
They can recruit quicker, avoid bad confrontations and form armies quicker.
Instead of nerving their speed or adding more cavalry to the other factions. Seek a solution in other area's. Their speed and army build makes them unique. The major problem is that the khuzait are generally taking over large portions of the map, so every battle in the endgame is against horse archers.

options (not all in once ):
-Reduce the amounts of khuzait recruits
-Take away the bonus to cavalry from all battlefields not labeled as open field, steppe or dessert.
-Give a cavalry penalty to armies in a siege battle.
-Nerf their infantry. they don't have to be on the same level as other factions
-Give conquered settlements a higher cultural aversion against the khuzait. This would hopefully keep them more contained to the steppes.

I finished today a test run with 40+ years (without player interaction) and with the recent changes the Khuzaits are not dominating the world anymore. It seems the recent updates and rebellion helped to some extent.
Obviously they are still powerful but Vlandia and Aserai were on same level.

 

[Dabos37]

@mexxico if alliances are finally not approved, would be possible in the future trying to improve the current war/peace declaration system? Something like making most of kingdoms pretty aggressive against expansionist factions (fe, if a kingdom has too much fiefs compared to number of clans), plus making most of kingdoms less likely to accept making peace with these expansionist kingdoms (except if they are currently loosing hard against this expansionist kingdom).

For example, Khuzaits conquer +5 fiefs within 100 days, so NE, SE, Sturgia and Aserai get a huge bonus when they evaluate to go to war against Khuzaits. When Khuzaits get 2 or 3 war declarations, they start trying to make peace with 1 or 2 of these kingdoms, but the AI refuses it or asks for a pretty high tribute.

I know that currently there is something to make “top dogs” more appealing targets but these top dogs are usually the strongest ones and this also makes that some kingdoms avoid going to war against them.

 

[Dabos37]

I finished today a test run with 40+ years (without player interaction) and with the recent changes the Khuzaits are not dominating the world anymore. It seems the recent updates and rebellion helped to some extent.
Obviously they are still powerful but Vlandia and Aserai were on same level.

What I have seen so far is:

- Khuzaits dominate 100% of the time the east side of the map but yes, they are not getting over all the world as easily as before.
- Vlandia or Battania get super strong, similar to Khuzaits level. Most of the times Battania is the kingdom which usually dominates the west side.
- Aserai and Sturgia are usually strong but not in the same league than Vlandia or Battania and Khuzaits.
- The worst and weakest kingdom is usually SE and they usually lose a lot of fiefs against Khuzaits. Then NE and WE also tend to lose most of the times.

 

[Worlok]

What I have seen so far is:

- Khuzaits dominate 100% of the time the east side of the map but yes, they are not getting over all the world as easily as before.
- Vlandia or Battania get super strong, similar to Khuzaits level. Most of the times Battania is the kingdom which usually dominates the west side.
- Aserai and Sturgia are usually strong but not in the same league than Vlandia or Battania and Khuzaits.
- The worst and weakest kingdom is usually SE and they usually lose a lot of fiefs against Khuzaits. Then NE and WE also tend to lose most of the times.

Yes, unfortunately this is true. The worst thing about it is that every single test run ends up with Khuzaits being the strongest faction (I did not used word "dominate" intentionally). Every single!
This was what I meant earlier when I said "it's hard-coded". I don't really care where in the code but still it's the Khuzaits.
I personally would like to see if I run 10 tests with at least 40 years length (this appears to be one ingame generation), that various random factions will be the strongest factions at the end. Otherwise the game favors the Khuzaits for some reason (intentional or unintentional). This would mean to me "the game is balanced".

However I gave up to criticize this ... I would like to get answers to 2 questions though:

1. Is there still intention to balance the game in the way I described it? I.e. if I run 10 test games the strongest faction will be random each time.
2. Is it intentional that the Khuzaits are always the strongest faction at the end? I.e. the player is supposed to fight the Khuzaits at the endgame all the time, cause that is the vision of the game developers...

 

[mexxico]

Yes, unfortunately this is true. The worst thing about it is that every single test run ends up with Khuzaits being the strongest faction (I did not used word "dominate" intentionally). Every single!
This was what I meant earlier when I said "it's hard-coded". I don't really care where in the code but still it's the Khuzaits.
I personally would like to see if I run 10 tests with at least 40 years length (this appears to be one ingame generation), that various random factions will be the strongest factions at the end. Otherwise the game favors the Khuzaits for some reason (intentional or unintentional). This would mean to me "the game is balanced".

However I gave up to criticize this ... I would like to get answers to 2 questions though:

1. Is there still intention to balance the game in the way I described it? I.e. if I run 10 test games the strongest faction will be random each time.
2. Is it intentional that the Khuzaits are always the strongest faction at the end? I.e. the player is supposed to fight the Khuzaits at the endgame all the time, cause that is the vision of the game developers...

Reason of why Khuzait is 90% strongest faction is this :
Khuzait parties have 32% cavalry ratio while others have 12% average. I totally removed all speed bonus effect of cavalry units (60%) and footman with horse at inventory (30%) too see what will happen and result is this at 11th year of game (you probably first see something like this which Khuzait left only 4 towns without player interaction at late game (10+ years)) :

This is not intended. This only happens because of wrong design decisions (deciding something without thinking side effects). There is 60% speed bonus for cavalry units currently (means if your all party is cavalry you get 60% speed bonus if half is cavalry you get 30% and so on...). Lets say average party speed is 10 for 100 men all footmen party. Then average Khuzait party consist of 32% cavalry troops their speed become 10 + 10 x 0.6 x 0.32 = 11.92 while others are 10 + 10 x 0.6 x 0.12 = 10.72; so mostly Khuzait parties can run away from stronger parties and can catch weaker parties. Always decider is Khuzait party in party meetings. They can catch or run away. So they usullay enter battles which they can win they collect more loot they lose less battles they save their troops from stronger enemies they have more money they have stronger garrisons because their economy is good even they collect recruits faster (even this is minor). When they start a siege if defender army come they can run away. They can defend their settlements easier they can go sieged town faster (minor effect too). All are positive.

What can be done :
1-We should increase cavalry ratio at other factions. I am not saying all should same but if Khuzaits have 32% cav ratio others should have 15-20% not 12%.
2-We should lower 60% mounted units speed bonus to 40% or 50%. 60% is so much and so OP.
3-We can give several disadvantages to Khuzaits like less recruits or something else.

Even we do these still problem will be there (according to how harsh 3 is) but it will be less problem at least. I added first 2 solutions to 1.5.7 and average snowball score dropped to 50s from 60s.

I am ok with unbalanced design if Khuzaits are a bit better (fe 40% of time they have dominance at late game) but currently they are not a bit better than others there is a major difference (90% they have dominance at late game). After snowballing fixes at 1.5.6 they can get at most 50-60 fief points at 20th year of game in past this was about 70-80 fief points (towns 1, castles 2). In 1.5.7 it will be 40-50. (All world is 173)

 

[Dabos37]

Reason of why Khuzait is 90% strongest faction is this :
Khuzait parties have 32% cavalry ratio while others have 12% average. I removed speed bonus effect of cavalry units and footman with horse at inventory too see what will happen and result is this at 11th year of game (you probably first see something like this) :

This is not intended. This only happens because of wrong design decisions (deciding something without thinking side effects). There is 60% speed bonus for cavalry units currently (means if your all party is cavalry you get 60% speed bonus if half is cavalry you get 30% and so on...). Lets say average party speed is 10 for 100 men all footmen party. Then average Khuzait party consist of 32% cavalry troops their speed become 10 + 10 x 0.6 x 0.32 = 11.92 while others are 10 + 10 x 0.6 x 0.12 = 10.72; so mostly Khuzait parties can run away from stronger parties and can catch weaker parties. Always decider is Khuzait party in party meetings. They can catch or run away. So they collect more loot they lose less battles they save their troops from stronger enemies even they collect recruits faster (even this is minor). When they start a siege if defender army come they can run away. They can defend their settlements easier they can go sieged town faster (minor effect too). All are positive.

What can be done :
1-We should increase cavalry ratio at other factions. I am not saying all should same but if Khuzaits have 32% cav ratio others should have 15-20% not 12%.
2-We should lower 60% cavalry speed bonus to 40% or 50%. 60% is so much and so OP.
3-We can give several disadvantages to Khuzaits like less recruits or something else.

Even we do these still problem will be there (according to how harsh 3 is) but it will be less problem at least. I added first 2 solutions to 1.5.7 and average snowball score dropped to 50s from 60s.

Thanks Mexxico. Point 1 and 2 will be pretty welcome and point 3 is not necessary IMO. I am still seeing this scenario a lot of times:

1- Khuzaits are fighting a 1v1 war against NE or SE. The war is pretty even.
2- Someone else decides to declare war on Khuzaits’ enemies (usually NE and SE or WE go to war).
3- Khuzaits then have an easy way.

Or:

1- NE, SE or Sturgia are having a bad time fighting against someone.
2- Khuzaits decide to declare war on the weak faction.
3- Khuzaits are able to take 1 or 2 fiefs pretty fast before the weak faction has time to make peace with someone.

It is like if Khuzaits would have a superior AI (I know that it is not the case). What I am always seeing is that SE and NE are usually involved in 9374628 wars while Khuzaits just in 1.

In my current campaign I was seeing how NE was kicking the Khuzaits a** in a 1v1 war at the beginning, but then NE declares war on WE. And believe me, it is not happening eventually, I am seeing this in 100% of the campaigns I have played/tested since the release. Empire kingdoms love to go to war against everyone for some reason.

 

[VineFynn]

Does the cav speed bonus even make sense? I thought that irl baggage trains, camp followers and infantry tended to more or less force all armies to march at similar speeds. Especially at only 30% of the army.

 

[Oakenlix]

@mexxico what if horses and cavalry units consumed grain to maintain?
This way you have extra mobility but also have to spend more food if all the horses including cavalry units consumed it.

I think this could balance cavalry armies without taking away Khuzaits identity of being a very mobile force compared to other cultures, so they would have a harder time affording big armies.

 

[mexxico]

@mexxico what if horses and cavalry units consumed grain to maintain?
This way you have extra mobility but also have to spend more food if all the horses including cavalry units consumed it.

I think this could balance cavalry armies without taking away Khuzaits identity of being a very mobile force compared to other cultures, so they would have a harder time affording big armies.

It can be done too but this damages food economy at game and we need to add developments to food & money management of parties. So I do not prefer this for now. These kind of things are basics of game and hard to change now however I accept it is a good solution alternative still it will not be enough of course it will create additional expense to Khuzait compared to others only. It will be something like add extra daily 90 denars (3-6 food) of cost to Khuzait parties and daily 30 denars (1-2 food) to others.

 

[Worlok]

Reason of why Khuzait is 90% strongest faction is this :
Khuzait parties have 32% cavalry ratio while others have 12% average. I totally removed all speed bonus effect of cavalry units (60%) and footman with horse at inventory (30%) too see what will happen and result is this at 11th year of game (you probably first see something like this which Khuzait left only 4 towns without player interaction at late game (10+ years)) :

This is not intended. This only happens because of wrong design decisions (deciding something without thinking side effects). There is 60% speed bonus for cavalry units currently (means if your all party is cavalry you get 60% speed bonus if half is cavalry you get 30% and so on...). Lets say average party speed is 10 for 100 men all footmen party. Then average Khuzait party consist of 32% cavalry troops their speed become 10 + 10 x 0.6 x 0.32 = 11.92 while others are 10 + 10 x 0.6 x 0.12 = 10.72; so mostly Khuzait parties can run away from stronger parties and can catch weaker parties. Always decider is Khuzait party in party meetings. They can catch or run away. So they usullay enter battles which they can win they collect more loot they lose less battles they save their troops from stronger enemies they have more money they have stronger garrisons because their economy is good even they collect recruits faster (even this is minor). When they start a siege if defender army come they can run away. They can defend their settlements easier they can go sieged town faster (minor effect too). All are positive.

What can be done :
1-We should increase cavalry ratio at other factions. I am not saying all should same but if Khuzaits have 32% cav ratio others should have 15-20% not 12%.
2-We should lower 60% cavalry speed bonus to 40% or 50%. 60% is so much and so OP.
3-We can give several disadvantages to Khuzaits like less recruits or something else.

Even we do these still problem will be there (according to how harsh 3 is) but it will be less problem at least. I added first 2 solutions to 1.5.7 and average snowball score dropped to 50s from 60s.

I am ok with unbalanced design if Khuzaits are a bit better (fe 40% of time they have dominance at late game) but currently they are not a bit better than others there is a major difference (90% they have dominance at late game). After snowballing fixes at 1.5.6 they can get at most 50-60 fief points at 20th year of game in past this was about 70-80 fief points (towns 1, castles 2). In 1.5.7 it will be 40-50. (All world is 173)

Thanks for your prompt response. I appreciate it. So my coclusion was correct earlier.
Maybe points 1 and 2 could be solved by changing the linear impact of cav ratio to army speed to semi-exponencial line. For example 90% cavalry units in army would have 60% speed bonus, 80% something like 40% speed bonus and 70% - 30%. (or even more drastic 90%-60%, 80%-30, 70%-20% etc).
This would make sense after all, the cavalry armies were fast only until they were not bonded to footman. The small amount of footman in the army ratio would also need horses in the Khuzaits army (footmen on horses).

I could observe also something that affected the war in my last long campaign where my Vlandian faction was stronger as the Khuzaits with my help. After the initial phase of the war, where the Khuzaits had high tier units and we step by step defeated them. After some time the new armies had low tier units and thats where we started to win the war BUT for some reason Vlandia made peace exactly in the moment where they should push the Khuzaits back. When I investigated this there was no reason for this from wars perspective. There were no other wars for Vlandia and they did not even declare war to anyone else after the peace was made with Khuzaits. The reason was, Vlandian clans ran out of influence to build armies. I tried to implement many kingdom pilicies to increase influence growth but as soon as they had around 1k they started to build armies (peace time). I am cinvinced this is caused by the BUG where Vlandian lords build 2k armies during peace time. I believe if this bug is fixed this can help even more. They will have more influence and can train higher tier units by hunting bandits.

PS - that map looks awsom

 

[Dabos37]

I can confirm that completely removing cavalry bonus (I have also removed Khuzaits bonus and 20% cavalry bonus in simulated battles), slows down a lot snowballing:

Day 300:

Day300A hosted at ImgBB

Image Day300A hosted in ImgBB

ibb.co

Day300B hosted at ImgBB

Image Day300B hosted in ImgBB

ibb.co

You could say, why day 300 and not 10 or 20 years? Well, because at day 300 in vanila snowballing has started and Khuzaits never lose any fiefs. Anyway, going to run the test for years and then update this post.

Reducing mounted infantry speed bonus to 20% and cavalry to 40% looks like good thing. After this test, I am going to check with that values.

Day400:

Day400 hosted at ImgBB

Image Day400 hosted in ImgBB

ibb.co

 

[Worlok]

I can confirm that completely removing cavalry bonus (I have also removed Khuzaits bonus and 20% cavalry bonus in simulated battles), slows down a lot snowballing:

Day 300:

Day300A hosted at ImgBB

Image Day300A hosted in ImgBB

ibb.co

Day300B hosted at ImgBB

Image Day300B hosted in ImgBB

ibb.co

You could say, why day 300 and not 10 or 20 years? Well, because at day 300 in vanila snowballing has started and Khuzaits never lose any fiefs. Anyway, going to run the test for years and then update this post.

Reducing mounted infantry speed bonus to 20% and cavalry to 40% looks like good thing. AFter this test, I am going to check with that values.

Day400:

Day400 hosted at ImgBB

Image Day400 hosted in ImgBB

ibb.co

I mean they can have big speed bonus but only if their army is completely mounted units. These cav armies were used by Ghengis Khan too due to their high mobility (according to some sources..). But mixed armies were slower.

 

[niekdegrijze]

@Worlok @Dabos37 thanks for running al these interesting test runs. Highly informative, without these the forum discussions will keep going around in circles. @mexxico thank you for keeping an open mind about possible solutions

 

[Dabos37]

I mean they can have big speed bonus but only if their army is completely mounted units. These cav armies were used by Ghengis Khan too due to their high mobility (according to some sources..). But mixed armies were slower.

I am ok with Khuzaits being faster but the thing is how much faster. Plus I prefer by far a snowballing fix than Khuzaits being much faster just for Mongols "lore".

Just look this campaign at day 1000:

Day1000A hosted at ImgBB

Image Day1000A hosted in ImgBB

ibb.co

Day1000B hosted at ImgBB

Image Day1000B hosted in ImgBB

ibb.co

This is beautiful...

 

[HugoTheFrenchMan]

I am ok with Khuzaits being faster but the thing is how much faster. Plus I prefer by far a snowballing fix than Khuzaits being much faster just for Mongols "lore".

Just look this campaign at day 1000:

Day1000A hosted at ImgBB

Image Day1000A hosted in ImgBB

ibb.co

Day1000B hosted at ImgBB

Image Day1000B hosted in ImgBB

ibb.co

This is beautiful...

Damn in my gqme khuzaits just collapsed like 5 rebellions NE just took Baltakhand and Sturgia the csstles close to it the currently only have Husn Fulq as a conquered city left but in my other 2 games they just sniwballed normally

 

[Argentinian_Juan]

Reason of why Khuzait is 90% strongest faction is this :
Khuzait parties have 32% cavalry ratio while others have 12% average. I totally removed all speed bonus effect of cavalry units (60%) and footman with horse at inventory (30%) too see what will happen and result is this at 11th year of game (you probably first see something like this which Khuzait left only 4 towns without player interaction at late game (10+ years)) :

This is not intended. This only happens because of wrong design decisions (deciding something without thinking side effects). There is 60% speed bonus for cavalry units currently (means if your all party is cavalry you get 60% speed bonus if half is cavalry you get 30% and so on...). Lets say average party speed is 10 for 100 men all footmen party. Then average Khuzait party consist of 32% cavalry troops their speed become 10 + 10 x 0.6 x 0.32 = 11.92 while others are 10 + 10 x 0.6 x 0.12 = 10.72; so mostly Khuzait parties can run away from stronger parties and can catch weaker parties. Always decider is Khuzait party in party meetings. They can catch or run away. So they usullay enter battles which they can win they collect more loot they lose less battles they save their troops from stronger enemies they have more money they have stronger garrisons because their economy is good even they collect recruits faster (even this is minor). When they start a siege if defender army come they can run away. They can defend their settlements easier they can go sieged town faster (minor effect too). All are positive.

What can be done :
1-We should increase cavalry ratio at other factions. I am not saying all should same but if Khuzaits have 32% cav ratio others should have 15-20% not 12%.
2-We should lower 60% cavalry speed bonus to 40% or 50%. 60% is so much and so OP.
3-We can give several disadvantages to Khuzaits like less recruits or something else.

Even we do these still problem will be there (according to how harsh 3 is) but it will be less problem at least. I added first 2 solutions to 1.5.7 and average snowball score dropped to 50s from 60s.

I am ok with unbalanced design if Khuzaits are a bit better (fe 40% of time they have dominance at late game) but currently they are not a bit better than others there is a major difference (90% they have dominance at late game). After snowballing fixes at 1.5.6 they can get at most 50-60 fief points at 20th year of game in past this was about 70-80 fief points (towns 1, castles 2). In 1.5.7 it will be 40-50. (All world is 173)

@mexxico, so in 1.5.7 will the Khuzaits fix come?

 

[mexxico]

@mexxico, so in 1.5.7 will the Khuzaits fix come?

What can be done :
1-We should increase cavalry ratio at other factions. I am not saying all should same but if Khuzaits have 32% cav ratio others should have 15-20% not 12%.
2-We should lower 60% mounted units speed bonus to 40% or 50%. 60% is so much and so OP.
3-We can give several disadvantages to Khuzaits like less recruits or something else.

No, only solutions 1-2 will be applied so they will dominate 20-25% of map at 20th year instead of 25-30% (without player interaction) means things will be a bit better. These numbers are all averages of course they can dominate 20% or 30% or 40% in different runs but I do not think you can see below 20%. (average is 13% per faction normally)

So we need to add some important disadvantages to Khuzait to stop them to fix this solution completely.

 

[D0c1]

will we ever get the 4 slots of village production and being able to change them or is this feature discarded with no going back?

 

[Dabos37]

No, only solutions 1-2 will be applied so they will dominate 20-25% of map at 20th year instead of 25-30% (without player interaction) means things will be a bit better. These numbers are all averages of course they can dominate 20% or 30% or 40% in different runs but I do not think you can see below 20%. (average is 13% per faction normally)

So we need to add some important disadvantages to Khuzait to stop them to fix this solution completely.

Are other kingdoms getting as big as Khuzaits in 1.5.7? For example, Vlandia or Battania (just one of them per campaign) usually get as big as Khuzaits in 1.5.6 but not sure it it is still happening in 1.5.7. If it is the case, instead of giving specific nerfs for Khuzaits, would be great if you can add something to penalize all kingdoms getting too big.

 

[Blood Gryphon]

will we ever get the 4 slots of village production and being able to change them or is this feature discarded with no going back?

That’s scrapped.