Imporving horse charges, hoof attacks, and horse death

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Reiksmarshal

Sergeant Knight at Arms
I assume this is just a placeholder value, but the current damage is way too weak. A horse charge full speed into a soldier does maybe 5-10 damage if that which is too weak imo. Also when horses tumble from being killed they should hurt troops that they fall on as well and basically be a rolling boulder of flesh knocking troops down like bowling pins.

In this accident a man gets run over by a horse and don't even slow them down one bit. "Mr Pacheco suffered critical head injuries, a broken jaw and severe damage to his spine in the incident. He was airlifted to hospital and has been in intensive care since the accident happened on 3 June."


So how could horse charges be improved-
  • Most importantly damage done by horses should count towards riding skill xp!
  • Realistic rag doll effects for troops hit by full speed charging horse
  • Charge damage that can kill or harm troops based on weight and speed of horse
  • Damage to horses from hitting troops if they are not wearing horse armor
  • Formations being able to stop or slow down horse if the ranks are deep enough
  • The death of the horse causing damage as they tumble through infantry
  • Hoof attack damage for war horse class mounts when they rear up (use space bar when stopped)
  • Horse on horse collision damage
I can't stress enough that charge damage and hoof damage should count towards riding skill experience otherwise these attacks are pointless.

More dynamic battles for sure!


What are you guys thoughts?
 
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For SP I certainly support it, I even carried out some small tests with the parameters that affect horses in this thread.
This whole thread focuses on the AI's behaviour when operating as infantry; however the cavalry would need a review as well.

One of the first "eyebrow raises" I did, was because of this gif belonging to the Dev Blog 14/02/18.

blog_post_77_taleworldswebsite_03.gif

Here the charge seemed much more powerful than it is currently manifested in the Native

In the discussion thread, I wrote a comment indicating that there was a confluence of the cavalry charge at the central point of the group being charged. Obviously, at that time we didn't have access to the game and therefore it was all conjecture.

Well, just as the infantry is prone to charge at the central point of the group being charged; the cavalry in its absence follows the same pattern.

9LS4w.jpg


Imo a cavalry charge should charge offensively parallel to the defensive line of an enemy formation as indicated by the colour green. This mid-point charge attempt should only be achieved by a wedge charge (maintaining the shape of the formation and a certain parallel). As with infantry, when a charge is ordered, the formation loses its integrity (what use are the formations in such a case?).

On the other hand, what is a cavalry charge?


Speed and momentum of a real cavalry charge demonstration

In theory it is a manoeuvre consisting of a massive, impetuous and resolute attack by a troop against the enemy troop. Well, as the charges are defined in the Native, we do not find "the massive" or "the impetuous" but rather "a walking in the park". In my opinion the cavalry charges are extremely slow and without high impact.

Once again I have been fiddling with the parameters and have altered a few resulting in the following:

NativeModified


An increase in HP, speed and horse charge damage (for the test I have taken the Imperial charger breed) (* increased rein rotation too). In contrast, an increase in damage multiplier for the animal, an increase in fall damage for the rider and a more aggressive setting for the rear.This results in a considerable casualty impact for the object of charge, but also in casualties for the horses when they charge forward into a wall of spears. However, charging from the rear or the flanks to an enemy formation with these modifications would be lethal.

NativeModified
hit_points="100"
absorbed_damage_ratio="1.0"
body_capsule radius="0.37"
bipedal_delta_rotation_threshold_for_keeping_local_velocity" value="2.5"
QuadrupedalRadius" value="0.8"
MakesRearAttackDamageThreshold" value="10.0"
FallSpeedReductionMultiplierForRiderDamage" value="0.77"
speed="44" charge_damage="12"

hit_points="400"
absorbed_damage_ratio="5.0"
body_capsule radius="0.40"
bipedal_delta_rotation_threshold_for_keeping_local_velocity" value="2.5"
QuadrupedalRadius" value="1.0"
MakesRearAttackDamageThreshold" value="0.1"
FallSpeedReductionMultiplierForRiderDamage" value="0.95"
speed="80" charge_damage="90"

As is also the case with infantry, the cavalry is slightly crowded; therefore the spacing in the formations has been slightly increased. As @Apocal comments in his thread, Taleworlds should consider the spawns grouped together in a formation with a large volume of agents when they are carried out in narrow environments. Otherwise, the typical "cliff suicide" accident occurs.

These changes for the cavalry would make it a devastating weapon against the enemy with a strategic approach, but with "carefree" employment would lead to a resounding decimation of allied troops. Making horses a valuable war asset.


However, in MP environments it should be something similar to what we currently have (perhaps small adjustments).

Therefore for MP horse effects I would leave it as it is.
Effects in SP, frontal charges to pikes or spears formations would cause quite a lot of casualties on both sides. Rear or side charges, devastating. Charges from any direction to skirmishers/ranged units with low armour protection, devastating.
 
The only points where i would say that is ok:

Formations being able to stop or slow down horse is the ranks are deep enough
Horse collision damage

All the other stuff is just to realistic imo.
 
Can we just start with troops who have spears actually lowering them when a horse is charging them? I hate to see a horse plow through my shield walled oathsworn abs all spears are pointed up
 
There is mod called Drastic Battles which improves horse charge damage with pretty nice knock down. For balance modder added horse collision dmg so pretty much half things you want.
 
Like, if the AI was actually capable of defending against such a charge then yeah, but from what I've seen so far of my latest singleplayer run they still just charge you braindead. No thought like "Let the pitchfork dudes go first they can at least rear the cav and protect us" just mindless running into the meat grinder.

I am always gonna be eternally dissapointed in the complete lack of AI development from Warband to Bannerlord.
 
Considering that densely packed troops can't even stop one lone horseman from ploughing through their ranks. Increasing charge damage would make cavalry way too op. They wouldn't even have to use their weapons at all.
It's already too easy for the player to ride around and bowl all the enemy troops over while they engage your troops, leaving them helpless against your troops. Doesn't slow your horse down one bit. Yet your horse gets stabbed by a butter knife and comes to a complete stop.
They would need to overhaul how cavalry works in order for it to be balanced. Right now they have bigger fish to fry.
 
They probably aren't goping to do anyting to improve Cav. They made them bad on purpose for MP so "everything is fair and equally crappy yay".

I don't think MP design should have anything to do with SP, but I'm not in charge.
TW please stop trying to make them the same or even similar. Have crap throw away units for MP and really good intelligent and formattable units for SP.
 
I assume this is just a placeholder value, but the current damage is way too weak. A horse charge full speed into a soldier does maybe 5-10 damage if that which is too weak imo. Also when horses tumble from being killed they should hurt troops that they fall on as well and basically be a rolling boulder of flesh knocking troops down like bowling pins.

Man, this would be a really bad idea.
Adding huge trample damage without the attendant risk of being thrown off and severely injured will do more to distort the tactics in Bannerlord than having slip-and-slide charges that do puffball damage. Because if you can easily and reliably trample infantry formations wholesale, then it becomes the go-to use for cavalry.

Just look at this ****:


Every single flying shield or weapon is a dead footman.

edit:
So you want Bannerlord to become another MOUNT&Blade? Because if this ever happens I see no reason to ever have any infantary.

You're not wrong.
 
Upping horse charge damage would be a rather wrong way to make cavalry better. A single video does not prove much. Quite often horses were also injured if they hit people. Common cavalry tactic was not to run over soldiers with the horse. Here I trust people who saw and actually performed cavalry charges in prior centuries more than actual internet warriors.

Cavalry have to devastate loose or moving soldiers without big shields or spears, have to be able to hit with a lance, stay together and don't ride a kilometer away after one charge in different directions, and there should be targets definable by the player what to attack and what not. At the same time swinging polearms on horses should be nerfed drastically, at best however through armor performance settings and difficulty of mastering the horse.
 
If a horse charges into close ranks I guess that the horse would be severely injured as well, not just from weapons but from the impact. A horse vs 5 armoured soldiers is like 500kg vs 500kg.
 
If infantry used spears properly then I might agree but with how ineffectual spears are in this game I'd say no. Being a Swadia knight was fun but being on the receiving end was about as unfun as possible. There were times in Warband that you felt like a pinball getting bounced around till you died.
 
I wouldn't mind at all to have cav charges just as effective as that youtube movie posted above considering how many cav was charging so they should win easily. However, recruiting such units should be very, very expensive. It seems many members posting here get stuck in the "But Cav will be so OP" which is quite easily countered by making them expensive so you can't hire that many. After time goes by and you slowly acquire a critical mass of lancers, then yes, they should indeed smash straight through a couple of ranks of low/medium infantry and send them flying.

And someone above mentioned trusting people who actually did this in past centuries or something similar and argued it wasn't done as straight up charges. Umm what? Heavy cav straight into infantry was most definately done in medieval times as far as I have been able to tell, ie the Normand knights quite early and expanded from there over centuries. I won't get stuck in some debate of who has the best medieval sources, I have chosen to trust a couple of people on YouTube who post such things and hope their assessment are correct. Was it invincible? No, of course not. But it was obviously effecient enough for many countries employing this particular tactic by the nobles/richest. Lances could be quite long, longer even then the infantry's spears perhaps, thus the Cav could hit before getting hit.

So, not that I think it will actually ever be done in the game, I would most definitely prefer charges/horse damage to be upp'ed significantly, as well as, their ability to strike through and keep momentum and not be stopped dead if someone poke at them with a stick. It could be countered by heavy costs to recruit such cav units to keep these heaviest of units as a lower number, only to be used when critical and at a risk of losing them all if they do indeed get bogged down (like if you charge them into a too large force or their initial charge goes well, but the aftermath does not).

But anyways, I'm that kind of weird person who enjoy historical/realistic accuracy more than anything else. Also, I don't care at all about MP and find it ludicrous MP balance should be a thing for the SP game.
 
I wouldn't mind at all to have cav charges just as effective as that youtube movie posted above considering how many cav was charging so they should win easily. However, recruiting such units should be very, very expensive. It seems many members posting here get stuck in the "But Cav will be so OP" which is quite easily countered by making them expensive so you can't hire that many. After time goes by and you slowly acquire a critical mass of lancers, then yes, they should indeed smash straight through a couple of ranks of low/medium infantry and send them flying.

You'll smash through more than a couple of ranks of infantry. Currently you can plow through infantry eight or nine ranks deep and come out the other side, dealing some damage as you go. There is literally no realistic arrangement of infantry that could stop a charge if you increased the damage, meaning as few as 10 or 20 horses (and not only the heavy ones) can casually truck infantry over.

But anyways, I'm that kind of weird person who enjoy historical/realistic accuracy more than anything else.

Then why would you support increasing charge damage so high that it literally doesn't matter what weapons the cavalry use?
 
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And someone above mentioned trusting people who actually did this in past centuries or something similar and argued it wasn't done as straight up charges. Umm what? Heavy cav straight into infantry was most definately done in medieval times as far as I have been able to tell, ie the Normand knights quite early and expanded from there over centuries. I won't get stuck in some debate of who has the best medieval sources, I have chosen to trust a couple of people on YouTube who post such things and hope their assessment are correct. Was it invincible? No, of course not. But it was obviously effecient enough for many countries employing this particular tactic by the nobles/richest. Lances could be quite long, longer even then the infantry's spears perhaps, thus the Cav could hit before getting hit.
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That's not what was said. I said that running over people with the horse was not the regular cavalry tactic. There were certain reasons why cavalry usually carried weapons, lances quite often, to poke people from a certain distance.

Generally we have very scarce sources from the medieval period which tell something about the exact realities of combat. Such sources mostly come from later periods. We do not know what exactly happened when someone wrote about successful cavalry charges during battles in the middle ages. We don't exactly know why the Norman cavalry allegedly could break "through walls" with their charge (as one eastern Roman princess wrote, surely a deliberate exaggeration), but were not able to break the Anglo-Saxon infantry shield wall at Hastings despite several trials. Weird, why didn't they just ride over the infantry soldiers, as it seemingly was so easy?

You also have to take into account that most of the time cavalry mainly targeted other cavalry. Knights preferred to fight knights, not infantry, so to say. And quite often they sucked when they tried to frontally attack infantry masses in solid formations with good moral.

So (melee) cavalry in Bannerlord should become better but should not be able to ride through and over shield walls. Increasing charge damage of horses is the wrong way.
 
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