Does the Bannerlord map make sense, when compared to that of Warband?

[Terco_Viejo]

I've seem a concept world map on discord that blew my mind, it looks kinda of a mix between the modern map and the older ones but with geography that actually makes sense (and a bit expanded for newer factions from the lore), i would kill for this map in-game lol

Spoiler: World map by Terco_Viejo

+1 I also like that map!

 

[Nalgasucia507]

+1 I also like that map!

That's a very nice looking map Terco! Thank you for all you do.

 

[Akka]

I've seen a concept world map on discord that blew my mind, it looks kinda of a mix between the modern map and the older ones but with geography that actually makes sense (and a bit expanded for newer factions from the lore), i would kill for this map in-game lol

Spoiler: World map by Terco_Viejo

Yeah, this map is a massive improvement compared to the one we have in the game. I'm also a fan and thanked @Terco_Viejo for his great work
But it still is based on the "new map" and it isn't as faithful to Warband map than the first TaleWorlds used.

This thread shows differences between them :

Spoiler: "Old vs New map comparison

New map (political layer) :

Old map (political layer) :

Old map (terrain layer) :

As you can see, the old one is much closer to Warband's map (and also makes the Aserai actually relevant instead of making them feel like they're part of another dimension, isolating them far to the south, locked behind a rock-sized chokepoint). THAT is the one I would prefer to see adjusted (with better-placed settlements and readjusted terrain elevation so as to replicate Warbands, with possibly a bit more variety but still staying true to the main themes).

 

[Terco_Viejo]

Yeah, this map is a massive improvement compared to the one we have in the game. I'm also a fan and thanked @Terco_Viejo for his great work
But it still is based on the "new map" and it isn't as faithful to Warband map than the first TaleWorlds used.

This thread shows differences between them :

Spoiler: "Old vs New map comparison

New map (political layer) :

Old map (political layer) :

Old map (terrain layer) :

As you can see, the old one is much closer to Warband's map (and also makes the Aserai actually relevant instead of making them feel like they're part of another dimension, isolating them far to the south, locked behind a rock-sized chokepoint). THAT is the one I would prefer to see adjusted (with better-placed settlements and readjusted terrain elevation so as to replicate Warbands, with possibly a bit more variety but still staying true to the main themes).

As I discussed with you in that thread, no doubt the entire coastal contour from north to south "should" retain some minimal similarity to the original Warband map (In my recreation, I have more or less followed that guideline). The problem (or the luck) is that for this new installment "it is expected" that the combat and maritime navigation will eventually make an appearance. That's why, in my opinion, it's so necessary to "alter" the original orography by opening inland seas and fluvial routes as it has been done.
---
For the curious; if you want to see all the information about that map you can do it from here (comments #26, 28, 30 & 36).

 

[Akka]

As I discussed with you in that thread, no doubt the entire coastal contour from north to south "should" retain some minimal similarity to the original Warband map (In my recreation, I have more or less followed that guideline). The problem (or the luck) is that for this new installment "it is expected" that the combat and maritime navigation will eventually make an appearance. That's why, in my opinion, it's so necessary to "alter" the original orography by opening inland seas and fluvial routes as it has been done.

Yeah, as I said I understand your argument, but :
- I wish for a map that is closer to what Warband was. These huge seas simply don't fit with what existed. Sarranids were in a desert behind mountains, not a desert on the other side of the sea.
- Aserai are nearly completely cut from the mainland, which for all intents and purpose removes a good chunk of the world map and makes one of its main faction nearly irrelevant.
- The game is looking like a good year before it's even complete.
- Even after completion, it'll probably be some years before a rework big enough to make maritime navigation/battles happens (especially considering the glacial pace TW has in developping stuff).

I'm not keen on sacrificing faithfulness to Warband and hamstringing the flow of the game for years just to keep the "maybe in the future we'll get something that might or might not make the game actually more enjoyable". If that happens, then by this time we might not even need to mod the map at all.
If I'm looking for a modded map, it's precisely to have something fun and playable for the next few years before the next overhaul.

 

[vonbalt]

Yeah, this map is a massive improvement compared to the one we have in the game. I'm also a fan and thanked @Terco_Viejo for his great work
But it still is based on the "new map" and it isn't as faithful to Warband map than the first TaleWorlds used.

This thread shows differences between them :

Spoiler: "Old vs New map comparison

New map (political layer) :

Old map (political layer) :

Old map (terrain layer) :

As you can see, the old one is much closer to Warband's map (and also makes the Aserai actually relevant instead of making them feel like they're part of another dimension, isolating them far to the south, locked behind a rock-sized chokepoint). THAT is the one I would prefer to see adjusted (with better-placed settlements and readjusted terrain elevation so as to replicate Warbands, with possibly a bit more variety but still staying true to the main themes).

Damn i had forgotten someone had managed to map most of all fiefs in the old bannerlord map before the switch, it's so much closer to warband and look! Pendraic castle is right in the border between the western empire and battania, the lore actually makes sense on why Neretzes would move his legions there instead of all the way across battania to the north just bordering Vlandia and that lost Sturgian castle there (that also has a logical placement in the old map)

 

[Terco_Viejo]

In any case, I am talking about orography, not where the cities are located. Obviously I am in favour of the settlements being located in their rightful place, like Sargot in the north.
Having said that, the new map is nothing more than an evolution of the previous one opening up "waterways". Look at the Sturgia (terrain removed / water inserted) and Aserai (terrain rotated) territories...

That map had to be modified yes or yes to introduce naval combat or so I understand the move. (Yellow zone = navigation area)

 

[Scipio65]

I would like it vastly bigger. Traveling from Rome to Naples for example in wagons would take ~5-6 days, Horses ~ 2 days. Wagons would only hit 15-25 kilometers a day and this was over Roman roads... Horses could hit ~35 kilometers in a day.

The you have (land) trips from Barcelona Spain to Cairo Egypt (5700 km), would take ~160 days... 5 months. Boats would make in a couple weeks or less.

These are extreme Mediterranean Sea distances.

If the map were this big you would have to use fast travel and or definitely use boats. During the Crusades, an army might not get back home to Europe for years. Same with the Muslim armies.. weeks and months of travel time.

If the map is the ~size of Europe.. Paris to Istanbul is still ~2200 km apart. Paris to Berlin ~880 km. But I think this map is somewhere in the size of modern Turkey.. Which makes sense.

Fast travel is already built in the game.

The "game world" map buried in the game files is at least maybe ~30 times bigger?

When traveling from place to place and across the map.. I don't get the feeling of 'distance'.. So to me it just feels small.

 

[Maneuverer]

Idc the map is geographicaly different I just dont like the layout. From looking at the map you can see that TW's clear intention was to make every faction face another 3-4 factions and that is also fine be me if that'd work in practice.

The main issue I have i Sturgia being absolutely devasted becouse of it's sizing and length. Aserai don't have this problem with similiar layout becouse of the limited access points to their lands. I am afraid they TW will not update the map and rather spend months trying to "balance" this out by nerfing everything to oblivion and randomly swaping armor pieces in the troop trees.

 

[Akka]

Idc the map is geographicaly different I just dont like the layout. From looking at the map you can see that TW's clear intention was to make every faction face another 3-4 factions and that is also fine be me if that'd work in practice.

That part is not a problem. The problem is how the entire map is made of tiny bubbles (lone settlement or city/castle + additionnal village) separated by chokepoints, with bigger bubbles (countries) encapsulated in a bigger bubble with even less chokepoints. Gives a claustrophobic feeling to the entire map and make moving around a pain, which leads to :

The main issue I have i Sturgia being absolutely devasted becouse of it's sizing and length. Aserai don't have this problem with similiar layout becouse of the limited access points to their lands. I am afraid they TW will not update the map and rather spend months trying to "balance" this out by nerfing everything to oblivion and randomly swaping armor pieces in the troop trees.

That's a part of what I hate with the new map. Aserai are, as I said above, nearly completely cut off from the game and play next to no role, due to the expansion of the sea instead of a river. And Sturgia on the contrary has quite a bit of contact with other countries, but the broken geography means that it takes forever to move inside, so reinforcements can't manage to arrive on time when they get attacked at some point.

 

[Maneuverer]

The problem is how the entire map is made of tiny bubbles (lone settlement or city/castle + additionnal village) separated by chokepoints, with bigger bubbles (countries) encapsulated in a bigger bubble with even less chokepoints. Gives a claustrophobic feeling to the entire map and make moving around a pain, which leads to :

That was an intention and tbf this resembles more how actual counrty looks like and how it was traversed (but still pretty far from it). If castles had an actual use along with the paths it would definitely make more sense to you since in reality fortresses were built for protecting what you call bubbles (valleys) or mountain passes. Also it is the one of the few things now stopping factions to sieze city in after 6 in-game days after declaring a war.

 

[Akka]

That was an intention and tbf this resembles more how actual counrty looks like and how it was traversed (but still pretty far from it).

Yes it is intentional (though it's a terrible idea), but NO WTF it doesn't resemble in any way any actual country. Don't know what universe you speak of, but in the real world we aren't constantly walled in by impassable terrain.

If castles had an actual use along with the paths it would definitely make more sense to you since in reality fortresses were built for protecting what you call bubbles (valleys) or mountain passes.

In which alternate reality do you live where the entire world is made of small bubbles of lands surrounded by moutains, rivers and cliffs ?

Also it is the one of the few things now stopping factions to sieze city in after 6 in-game days after declaring a war.

This could be much more elegantly fixed by making tweaks to AI and/or implementing some basic logistic concepts.

 

[markp27]

Castles were generally built in what would become cities. Why we have separate castles and cities I have no idea. Towns are more likely to have no castle.

Forts were built at the end of valleys to stop advancing armies. Often with two watchtowers at the top so they could rain down fire on the enemy army.

Cartography changes even over 100 years, and sea erosion happens all the time. So coastlines change and maps would get updated.

 

[Maneuverer]

Yes it is intentional (though it's a terrible idea), but NO WTF it doesn't resemble in any way any actual country. Don't know what universe you speak of, but in the real world we aren't constantly walled in by impassable terrain.

No it isn't but the scale of the BL's world is much smaller compared to the real one. I am not saying it's perfect but the current desidgn definitely makes more sense and is more interesting.

 

[Dr-Shinobi]

Horses could hit ~35 kilometers in a day

? man those are lazy horses ^^ i can walk aprox 50+km a day

 

[Scipio65]

? man those are lazy horses ^^ i can walk aprox 50+km a day

Men can outrun horses. A horse could never outpace a human being.
I did though over estimate the distance of the horses... More towards the 25-30 km range or less.
I don't think there are but a few animals, if any, that can run as far as a human.

 

[Dr-Shinobi]

Men can outrun horses. A horse could never outpace a human being.
I did though over estimate the distance of the horses... More towards the 25-30 km range or less.
I don't think there are but a few animals, if any, that can run as far as a human.

well i was talking about walking and since a horses have longer walking distance steps this sounds to me like the data is incorrect thinking that horses have stam like beasts...but what do i know...im no expert in horses ^^

 

[vonbalt]

well i was talking about walking and since a horses have longer walking distance steps this sounds to me like the data is incorrect thinking that horses have stam like beasts...but what do i know...im no expert in horses ^^

Walking or running it doesn't matter, given enough time humans can outpace almost all animals, it's an evolutionary trait since we used to hunt beasts by chasing them until they droped of exhaustion.

Horses can run faster than humans for a short amount of time until they get too tired for it while we can keep at a trot and eventually caught them (the native americans hunted all their horses to extinction before europeans brought them back for example)

Why don't we do that anymore? Just because we can doesn't mean it's easy or "fun", much easier on the legs to ride horses around and exchange them with fresh remounts when they get too tired like was done everywhere before cars, trains etc lol

 

[markp27]

well i was talking about walking and since a horses have longer walking distance steps this sounds to me like the data is incorrect thinking that horses have stam like beasts...but what do i know...im no expert in horses ^^

Walking or running it doesn't matter, given enough time humans can outpace almost all animals, it's an evolutionary trait since we used to hunt beasts by chasing them until they droped of exhaustion.

Horses can run faster than humans for a short amount of time until they get too tired for it while we can keep at a trot and eventually caught them (the native americans hunted all their horses to extinction before europeans brought them back for example)

Why don't we do that anymore? Just because we can doesn't mean it's easy or "fun", much easier on the legs to ride horses around and exchange them with fresh remounts when they get too tired like was done everywhere before cars, trains etc lol

An infantry man would normally march approximately 20 miles per day. This allows them to sustain doing that every day. You have to take into account wearing full armour, carrying weapons and any other kit. The poor horse has it harder as they are carrying the man, all of his equipment and a saddle as well.

 

[Akka]

No it isn't but the scale of the BL's world is much smaller compared to the real one.

It's not a matter of scale, it's a matter of being completely artificial and obviously tailored toward gamey purposes.

I am not saying it's perfect but the current desidgn definitely makes more sense

No, it doesn't make any shred of sense, and that's the first big problem, it's blatantly handmade, and doesn't feel at all natural. It's dungeon's corridors instead of open space FFS.

and is more interesting.

Absolutely not either, and that's the second problem. As it's been said several times, if everything is a chokepoints then chokepoints lose all meaning, purpose and worth. Being walled in constantly is boring, not interesting, and the entire world being a bunch of narrow paths makes it repetitive and annoying to travel, not fun nor immersive.