Melee cavalry is underpowered at the moment (Suggestions updated)

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Seafoodking

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Problems with current melee cavalry

So far in BL, melee cavalry charge isn't as devastating as it should be in real life. Also, I find it hilarious that Khuzait's Khan guard being much more powerful in MELEE than the rest of T6 cavalry. I have 600+ hours of gameplay in BL, and I find that spears in this game are uber underpowered, and that is why khan guards slaughter other T6 cavalry in a melee fight. Their glaive can strike down and almost certainly and one shot the enemy when they are clogged with the enemy infantry. Conversely, a spear equipped T6 cavalry can hardly one shot any enemy even top-speed charge damage bonus, and their close-quarter combat with spears can barely land a valid hit that does more than 30 damage due to their way of damage calculation for spears.

I had tested many times with khan's guard vs banner knights vs elite cataphracts etc, and literally every single time the khan's guard will outperform the counterparts multiple times. It is extremely ridiculous that a group of 40 elite cataphracts having casualties from charging into a group of 50 looters, and takes 4-5 rounds of cycle charge to win. For a party of 40 khan's guard against a noble's party of 100, they can win the battle without any casualties in MELEE ONLY, and all it took was cycle charging 4-5 rounds.

Suggestions to the problems

  1. Currently, if there isn't enough momentum for a spear thrust there isn't any damage at all or a 1-3 damage roll. I'm sure in real life, pressurizing a spear onto someone at point-blank can still deal damage. This should be fixed by modifying the spear damage calculation. This would also help cavalry to perform in close-quarter combat with their spear thrust to the enemy infantry from the top.
  2. Make the skill riding matters more, such as higher riding skills will allow units to get away from clogging inside the infantry faster, and allowing the cavalry to build up speed faster, which means more rounds of cycle charges, and able to couch their lance in a shorter period of time.
  3. Increase the recruitment cost and upkeep for the cavalry multiple times, just like real life.

Please suggest if you guys got any good ideas too!
 
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I love using the melee cavalry but I have to admit that they often miss their attacks with spears.

We need to rework the way the AI uses its spear to be more precise.

The noble elite knights of Vlandia who miss looters ... indeed it hurts the eyes and it calls into question their usefulness in a battle.
 
Problems with current melee cavalry

So far in BL, melee cavalry charge isn't as devastating as it should be in real life. Also, I find it hilarious that Khuzait's Khan guard being much more powerful in MELEE than the rest of T6 cavalry. I have 600+ hours of gameplay in BL, and I find that spears in this game are uber underpowered, and that is why khan guards slaughter other T6 cavalry in a melee fight. Their glaive can strike down and almost certainly and one shot the enemy when they are clogged with the enemy infantry. Conversely, a spear equipped T6 cavalry can hardly one shot any enemy even top-speed charge damage bonus, and their close-quarter combat with spears can barely land a valid hit that does more than 30 damage due to their way of damage calculation for spears.

I had tested many times with khan's guard vs banner knights vs elite cataphracts etc, and literally every single time the khan's guard will outperform the counterparts multiple times. It is extremely ridiculous that a group of 40 elite cataphracts having casualties from charging into a group of 50 looters, and takes 4-5 rounds of cycle charge to win. For a party of 40 khan's guard against a noble's party of 100, they can win the battle without any casualties in MELEE ONLY, and all it took was cycle charging 4-5 rounds.

Suggestions to the problems

  1. Currently, if there isn't enough momentum for a spear thrust there isn't any damage at all or a 1-3 damage roll. I'm sure in real life, pressurizing a spear onto someone at point-blank can still deal damage. This should be fixed by modifying the spear damage calculation. This would also help cavalry to perform in close-quarter combat with their spear thrust to the enemy infantry from the top.
  2. Make the skill riding matters more, such as higher riding skills will allow units to get away from clogging inside the infantry faster, and allowing the cavalry to build up speed faster, which means more rounds of cycle charges, and able to couch their lance in a shorter period of time.
Please suggest if you guys got any good ideas too!

It's also ridiculous that Khans Guards are some of the most powerful melee units. They have a good chanse versus any other melee unit if they have the same number.

I mean in captain mode I still use Khans guards even tho ranges is totally broken, I use them as two handed melee units whi occasionally can shoot arrows.
 
After last patches I find melee cavalry ok and strong. They are for sure much more useful after the archers nerf and cavalry definitely hit more often than before.
 
They just miss a lot. But it's ok , otherwise cavalry will be OP. Glaive is OP . Among all bandit bosses steppe bandit boss is most difficult one cuz he have glaive. Same like Khan's guard. It long , damage is high and it can hit through block .
 
Hey, jumping on the topic of Cavalry...

Did they fixed the proper uses of spears and lances for the cavalry? Sometimes they don't use the polearm during the advance coomand or even the charge, they're always holding the swords as primary
 
Problems with current melee cavalry

So far in BL, melee cavalry charge isn't as devastating as it should be in real life. Also, I find it hilarious that Khuzait's Khan guard being much more powerful in MELEE than the rest of T6 cavalry. I have 600+ hours of gameplay in BL, and I find that spears in this game are uber underpowered, and that is why khan guards slaughter other T6 cavalry in a melee fight. Their glaive can strike down and almost certainly and one shot the enemy when they are clogged with the enemy infantry. Conversely, a spear equipped T6 cavalry can hardly one shot any enemy even top-speed charge damage bonus, and their close-quarter combat with spears can barely land a valid hit that does more than 30 damage due to their way of damage calculation for spears.

I had tested many times with khan's guard vs banner knights vs elite cataphracts etc, and literally every single time the khan's guard will outperform the counterparts multiple times. It is extremely ridiculous that a group of 40 elite cataphracts having casualties from charging into a group of 50 looters, and takes 4-5 rounds of cycle charge to win. For a party of 40 khan's guard against a noble's party of 100, they can win the battle without any casualties in MELEE ONLY, and all it took was cycle charging 4-5 rounds.

Suggestions to the problems

  1. Currently, if there isn't enough momentum for a spear thrust there isn't any damage at all or a 1-3 damage roll. I'm sure in real life, pressurizing a spear onto someone at point-blank can still deal damage. This should be fixed by modifying the spear damage calculation. This would also help cavalry to perform in close-quarter combat with their spear thrust to the enemy infantry from the top.
  2. Make the skill riding matters more, such as higher riding skills will allow units to get away from clogging inside the infantry faster, and allowing the cavalry to build up speed faster, which means more rounds of cycle charges, and able to couch their lance in a shorter period of time.
Please suggest if you guys got any good ideas too!
This is just lack of knowledge even if i can agree if its the case with Khans Guard is true but thats because Glaive atm is OP as fug so yeah in that area youre right. However still i havent seen any indications of Khuzaits being OP on the battlefield against my cav units because of this so idk what youre on about and if this is only a rant against glaive units or something ?. But also to have in mind is that using glaive without shield is risky to as they are exposed and should be concidered in to the facts of balance making.

For the one handed spear; I could deal 90+ up to 120 in damage with one handed spear with my ground soldier fighting other ground troops with around medium skills in polearms so dont see what this is about at all. Also since now with my low skilled Vladian horseman ive already one shotted many hvy soldiers from horseback with an basic one handed spear around 60 in pole arm skill which is pretty much basic to.

Can understand how you think but a tip is not to judge things to early before you really checked it out having in mind the bigger scheme of things.
You can still do alot of damage on horse with close spear thrusts if you land em right but sometimes like every weapon type out there you are gonna miss hit with more lesser power because of the angle, surface of armor and negative force
 
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So far in BL, melee cavalry charge isn't as devastating as it should be in real life.

That's delusion French knights had at Crecy, Agincourt and Golden Spurs. Then the real "real" life kicked in.

Devastating charges happened in the real life much less often then in the Hollywood movies.

Making cavalry more realistic in Warband is one of the best changes done to the series. I don't want Warband's heavy cav spam that can roll over everything.

Currently, if there isn't enough momentum for a spear thrust there isn't any damage at all or a 1-3 damage roll. I'm sure in real life, pressurizing a spear onto someone at point-blank can still deal damage. This should be fixed by modifying the spear damage calculation. This would also help cavalry to perform in close-quarter combat with their spear thrust to the enemy infantry from the top.

This I can agree. Trusts (in general not just spear ones) does not rely on a momentum as much as swings. Current mechanic handicaps spears severely.

and allowing the cavalry to build up speed faster

It already does.
 
melee cavalry charge isn't as devastating as it should be in real life

I don't know about you. But in real life a horse would not charge into a line of men. It's a living animal with instincts after all.

I get your point and i'm down for it for the game but i'm not sure if you should compare it to real life.
 
I don't agree with this at all.

Right now, if a couched lance hits a target, that target is pretty much dead in 1 hit.

Now I think the complaint is that it is hard to hit a target with a couched lance - maybe.


That's delusion French knights had at Crecy, Agincourt and Golden Spurs. Then the real "real" life kicked in.

Devastating charges happened in the real life much less often then in the Hollywood movies.

Making cavalry more realistic in Warband is one of the best changes done to the series. I don't want Warband's heavy cav spam that can roll over everything.

This I can agree. Trusts (in general not just spear ones) does not rely on a momentum as much as swings. Current mechanic handicaps spears severely.

It already does.


This is true. Keep in mind that the French Gendarme knights were much more heavily armoured than anything in Bannerlord. The best armor that one can buy in Bannerlord is the Imperial scale armor. That set is a mix of high end Lamellar and Scale Armor.


By contrast, the French Gendarme had real plate armor.

Gendarmesatmetro.jpg


This is much better armor than anything available for sale in Bannerlord. It would be nearly invincible to the Bannerlord equal of cut damage and apart from the joints, very resistant to the Bannerlord equal to pierce damage (thrusts at the plate). Dagger thrusts (pierce) at the joints (although half swording might work) or blunt weapons are the only real counter. LIkewise, polearms such as halberds were also designed for attacking armor as were warhammers.

They still had a number of historical losses and were far from invulnerable even with plate armor because well, as plate armor proliferated, so did counters.



I think that a case could be made that the couched lance could have better accuracy, but heavy cavalry are far from invulnerable. They can be very powerful and potentially decisive in a combined arms battle, but I want to emphasize the effective use of combined arms.
 
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If were talking about realism i see alot of things in realism mode that wouldnt work in reality either as i see in those closest realism shooter games of today as well. Never struck in my mind that M&B was an simulator either but an strategy/rpg/action game.

I mean i took one arrow straight in to my scull one day on highest difficulty settings and still got to in to an long fight of life and death when i should be bleeding out long time ago even if perhaps technically an arrow to the head could be viable with a lot of luck and much spekulations around the subject.

As for the charging horsemen straight in to larger formation also sound a bit to good to be true and bit suicidal. Sure some crazy bastard might tried it just to show off now and then but wheres the proof and documentation ? i want a video of an battle since any general or leader can boast on paper with anything just to make em look better. Look what they did with Jesus as an example
 
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That's delusion French knights had at Crecy, Agincourt and Golden Spurs. Then the real "real" life kicked in.

Devastating charges happened in the real life much less often then in the Hollywood movies.

Making cavalry more realistic in Warband is one of the best changes done to the series. I don't want Warband's heavy cav spam that can roll over everything.

In an open field with no obstructions cavalry charge should be damn scary and it certainly worked in history as well. Of course, most people in history learned NOT to give such an easy target.

The Battle of the Golden Spurs is a perfect example. The Flemish knew that a French counter-attack to their siege was likely and found a nice flat field... and proceeded to riddle it with ditches, drained nearby rivers to make marshland and even dug pit traps covered with branches and leaves. The French arrived to find the flat field they had expected crossed by several small streams and tried to put bundled branches over the streams to let the horses cross more easily but the Flemish were guarding against that and stopped the French attempts to fill in the streams.The French felt they HAD to give battle even in the unfavourable situation and lost badly.

Agincourt the English constructed wooden barricades and earthworks as well as using the already existing marshy ground.

At Crecy, the English were at the top of a ridge and again dug pits to slow or stop the French cavalry and had the unplanned extra benefit of a strong rainshower just before the French attack which led to heavy mud in the recently ploughed fields in front of the hill as well as small rivulets of water draining down the ridge making the French attempts to climb up the now slippery slope quite a bit more difficult.

At Castillon, the battle which ended the English attempts to claim the French throne- the English attacked into the French prepared positions but it was the cavalry charge by the Bretons across a clear field with no English defences that sealed the victory.

Bannerlord already has plenty of battlefield diversity which can break up cavalry charges. If an enemy deploys right in the middle of a field with no defences they should be overrun by cavalry if not screened by their own cavalry.

As it stands melee cavalry are barely any threat even to unprotected low tier archers.
 
I think the issue here is that armor is simply too weak against arrows. Higher tier armor should be far more resistant to arrows and frankly, cut and pierce melee weapons too.

Another issue may be that stakes and other prepared positions cannot be deployed in Mount and Blade.
 
I think the issue here is that armor is simply too weak against arrows. Higher tier armor should be far more resistant to arrows and frankly, cut and pierce melee weapons too.

Another issue may be that stakes and other prepared positions cannot be deployed in Mount and Blade.
No! they already buffed armor to much...I miss the days when 3 arrows where enough to be worried or dead. Seems they have debuffed armor a little now in the latest from the looks of it but im not certain yet since its both to early and i havent played with medium and hvy armor in some time to so have to see how it reacts nowadays...Perhaps speed bonus on impact on them could be reduced slightly if its in the formula to compensate
 
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By contrast, the French Gendarme had real plate armor.

Gendarmesatmetro.jpg


This is much better armor than anything available for sale in Bannerlord. It would be nearly invincible to the Bannerlord equal of cut damage and apart from the joints, very resistant to the Bannerlord equal to piece damage (thrusts at the plate). Dagger thrusts (piece) at the joints (although half swording might work) or blunt weapons are the only real counter. LIkewise, polearms such as halberds were also designed for attacking armor as were warhammers.
I don't know my history incredibly well, but I suspect none of the French in the Hundred Years War were in 16th century plate armour.
 
I don't agree with this at all.

Right now, if a couched lance hits a target, that target is pretty much dead in 1 hit.

Now I think the complaint is that it is hard to hit a target with a couched lance - maybe.





This is true. Keep in mind that the French Gendarme knights were much more heavily armoured than anything in Bannerlord. The best armor that one can buy in Bannerlord is the Imperial scale armor. That set is a mix of high end Lamellar and Scale Armor.


By contrast, the French Gendarme had real plate armor.

Gendarmesatmetro.jpg


This is much better armor than anything available for sale in Bannerlord. It would be nearly invincible to the Bannerlord equal of cut damage and apart from the joints, very resistant to the Bannerlord equal to piece damage (thrusts at the plate). Dagger thrusts (piece) at the joints (although half swording might work) or blunt weapons are the only real counter. LIkewise, polearms such as halberds were also designed for attacking armor as were warhammers.

They still had a number of historical losses and were far from invulnerable even with plate armor because well, as plate armor proliferated, so did counters.



I think that a case could be made that the couched lance could have better accuracy, but heavy cavalry are far from invulnerable. They can be very powerful and potentially decisive in a combined arms battle, but I want to emphasize the effective use of combined arms.


I agree that they are not invincible, but they should do much more devastating damage to enemy casualties and to morale. Atm, you can charge into a line of archers and after the charge, they would still be standing there shooting arrows. This should be fixed for game balancing purposes, and I would hope that AI cavalry being smarter and flank on our archers.
 
No! they already buffed armor to much...I miss the days when 3 arrows where enough to be worried or dead. Seems they have debuffed armor a little now in the latest from the looks of it but im not certain yet since its both to early and i havent played with medium and hvy armor in some time to so have to see how it reacts nowadays...Perhaps speed bonus on impact on them could be reduced slightly if its in the formula to compensate
I think the armor still needs some minor tweaks, I mean it works well against NPC arrows, but how bout players arrow to NPC? ATM, I can one-shot a legionnaire quite often with steppe war bow and 220 bow skills. Indeed, back in historical times, nobles wear not only 1 layer of armor but 3. They wore heavy lamellar, chain, then gambeson.
 
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