"Himil of Tismil was lost." -- But why though?

[Apocal]

Just to preface this thread:
I know it is working as intended. I'm not asking by what means they are going *poof* -- currently any notable under 100 power and having no assets (workshop, caravan, territory) stands a small chance to disappear daily. All of that is something I understand.

I want to know why are they made to disappear? To what end does it serve? It is a clearly intended feature but what for? As it stands currently, notables disappearing just means the faces change over time, at least for the regular power notables. That's it. There's nothing else going on there. Maybe I'm missing something but the developers have made it clear that the feature is deliberate, which means there must be a goal in place.

So what is it?

@MArdA TaleWorlds @Duh_TaleWorlds

 

[Blood Gryphon]

I have to agree with this, Is it possible that it should be "under 0 power" so the game removes notables with negative power and replaces them?

I'm also okay with them dying of old age and immediately being replaced with a family member.

 

[Apocal]

I have to agree with this, Is it possible that it should be "under 0 power" so the game removes notables with negative power and replaces them?

I'm also okay with them dying of old age and immediately being replaced with a family member.

Yeah, dying of old age, fine. But there are a lot who aren't nearly that old and their power can drop to under 100 in a pretty short time. It just doesn't make any sense to me to constantly recycle notables, TBH.

Oh, one thing I forgot to mention: because they cycle so fast, eventually one will hit on a combination of factors that means their power goes up, way up, and they get to stick around. The net effect after five or six years is that the number of notables producing noble troops has tripled in my latest playthrough. That's a bit bonkers. It is literally easier to get a tier 3 noble than a tier 3 regular.

 

[Blood Gryphon]

Yeah, dying of old age, fine. But there are a lot who aren't nearly that old and their power can drop to under 100 in a pretty short time. It just doesn't make any sense to me to constantly recycle notables, TBH.

Oh, one thing I forgot to mention: because they cycle so fast, eventually one will hit on a combination of factors that means their power goes up, way up, and they get to stick around. The net effect after five or six years is that the number of notables producing noble troops has tripled in my latest playthrough. That's a bit bonkers. It is literally easier to get a tier 3 noble than a tier 3 regular.

Completely agree.

Oh really? I've been waiting for the hotfix to get too deep in a playthrough, but from what ive been seeing on the forums people haven't been seeing noble troops at all. So it just takes a few in game years?

 

[TheWitchIzalith]

Yeah, dying of old age, fine. But there are a lot who aren't nearly that old and their power can drop to under 100 in a pretty short time. It just doesn't make any sense to me to constantly recycle notables, TBH.

Oh, one thing I forgot to mention: because they cycle so fast, eventually one will hit on a combination of factors that means their power goes up, way up, and they get to stick around. The net effect after five or six years is that the number of notables producing noble troops has tripled in my latest playthrough. That's a bit bonkers. It is literally easier to get a tier 3 noble than a tier 3 regular.

Send them my way, I can't find any! Hah!

I suppose it's to simulate the world and changing power/political disputes. As no one village elder would ever really hold power forever, there's always someone competing to steal the spot. That's magnified by the Notables, in that there are many small "Factions" vying for political control of a village. Similar to the way the gangs in towns interact.

Admittedly there isn't much reason to immerse yourself and care about the individual Notables at this point, but perhaps more RP elements will be added to make them feel more personable instead of just an NPC to get recruits from.


Although, I am highly amused that the 5 daughters who went missing within a week around Epicrotea, all ended up in the village of Gymos, as if they were gunna sail away to Sturgia or something to elope. The headsmen there must've been like "This is the 5th man you've killed in a duel this week and it's only wednesday!"

 

[Apocal]

Completely agree.

Oh really? I've been waiting for the hotfix to get too deep in a playthrough, but from what ive been seeing on the forums people haven't been seeing noble troops at all. So it just takes a few in game years?

This is taken in 1091:

 

[Lord Irontoe]

Yeah, dying of old age, fine. But there are a lot who aren't nearly that old and their power can drop to under 100 in a pretty short time. It just doesn't make any sense to me to constantly recycle notables, TBH.

Why does their power drop so low? I've seen quite a few guys in my game with less than 50 power and one guy with around -20, which seemed odd. He must be a guy who absolutely nobody listens to.

And so many notables are dropping like flies. Starting from day 1, there were already people dying and its been almost a constant stream of death notices in the feed ever since.

 

[Apocal]

Why does their power drop so low?

Generally, they lose power due to unaddressed issues. They recently re-balanced the losses and gains of power, and I haven't really looked into what was changed.

 

[TheWitchIzalith]

This is taken in 1091:

I see now that the promised land is true, lead me there oh noble Apocal. Save me from my Sturgian ways, for I knew not the way of the Noble Recruits.

 

[Blood Gryphon]

I see now that the promised land is true, lead me there oh noble Apocal. Save me from my Sturgian ways, for I knew not the way of the Noble Recruits.

Lol i was going to ask, how ravaged has Aserai gotten? Typically Aserai is left alone the most in my play throughs so this would make a lot of sense compared to sturgia who is constantly on the losing end.

I'll never stop my sturgian ways, varyags or not.

 

[Apocal]

I see now that the promised land is true, lead me there oh noble Apocal. Save me from my Sturgian ways, for I knew not the way of the Noble Recruits.

Lol i was going to ask, how ravaged has Aserai gotten? Typically Aserai is left alone the most in my play throughs so this would make a lot of sense compared to sturgia who is constantly on the losing end.

I'll never stop my sturgian ways, varyags or not.

Aserai is pretty much untouched, except in the west. It is just the end result of whatever balancing has gone on with notable power; instead of all village notables becoming weak and at risk of disappearing (not death), a few are able to hit the right combination of factors to become massively powerful (there is at least one who reached 800+ power, although I can't recall his name or village so good luck finding him in the encyclopedia...) and they stick around. The ones without such luck fade away and are lost, but if the village as less than two notables, another will be generated. That new notable maybe does have the right luck, so he becomes hugely powerful as well. And if not, he fades away and they try again.

There are a few who are within normal power ranges (120-240 or thereabouts) but for the most part, if you're gonna be powerful, you're gonna be really ****ing powerful. And if you're not, then you'll be gone sooner or later.

Also, I don't imagine for one second that this was intended and so I fully expect them to nerf it into the ****ing ground in the next patch or patch thereafter.

 

[TheWitchIzalith]

Aserai is pretty much untouched, except in the west. It is just the end result of whatever balancing has gone on with notable power; instead of all village notables becoming weak and at risk of disappearing (not death), a few are able to hit the right combination of factors to become massively powerful (there is at least one who reached 800+ power, although I can't recall his name or village so good luck finding him in the encyclopedia...) and they stick around. The ones without such luck fade away and are lost, but if the village as less than two notables, another will be generated. That new notable maybe does have the right luck, so he becomes hugely powerful as well. And if not, he fades away and they try again.

There are a few who are within normal power ranges (120-240 or thereabouts) but for the most part, if you're gonna be powerful, you're gonna be really ****ing powerful. And if you're not, then you'll be gone sooner or later.

Also, I don't imagine for one second that this was intended and so I fully expect them to nerf it into the ****ing ground in the next patch or patch thereafter.

I've seen a couple northern Empire notables with 350 ish power, poor sobs never had any recruits though

 

[AfLIcTeD]

I think notables power is a bit broken atm. It's all over the place with no good reason. I have seem some with less than -100 power. Notables get swapped out way too fast so it is pointless building relations most of the time only to have those notables disappear.

 

[Lord Irontoe]

Generally, they lose power due to unaddressed issues. They recently re-balanced the losses and gains of power, and I haven't really looked into what was changed.

By "unaddressed issues" do you mean quests that the player took and failed, or does that mean any time they have a quest available and the player never comes by to take care of it? Because it would be pretty stupid if they're getting punished for every quest the player doesn't take, considering that the player is the only person in all of Calradia who can do those quests.

 

[Apocal]

By "unaddressed issues" do you mean quests that the player took and failed, or does that mean any time they have a quest available and the player never comes by to take care of it?

The second.

 

[XDaron]

want to know why are they made to disappear? To what end does it serve? It is a clearly intended feature but what for?

Lets say I'm constantly sabotaging a gang leader by killing his thieves, building negative relation with him so I can get better relations with his enemies, eventually I would like this notable to disappear so a new one with normal relation can enter, but notables disappearing without you ever seeing them seems excessive to me

 

[Ananda_The_Destroyer]

To what end does it serve?

Perhaps so if you get a bad reputation (executing lords, raiding, stealing horses) and then obtain property, there is a means for the -100 relation notables (who won't give you quests) to go bye bye and be replaced.
I'd rather just kick them out, but this seems like it could work.

 

[Bannerman Man]

Alright, here are a bunch of details on how the notable power system works (as of beta 1.5.1) just to shed some light on it.

First of all, there is a universal power decay modifier for all notables each day depending on current power level. The more powerful the notable, the greater the daily decay. The lower bound of this decay is 100 power. Under 100 power they will gain power each day. (This is actually inaccurate. They changed it so it only affects notables with > 100 power, so there is no gain).

The exact equation for this decay is: [-1 x ((hero.Power - 100) / 500)] while notable power is > 100.

Some notable types also have a separate baseline daily power gain to counteract the daily decay, and some have additional losses. Merchants get +0.3 power per day. Both types of village notables get +0.1. Gang leaders actually lose an extra -0.6 power per day. Artisans also lose an extra -1 per day (presumably because they own the Artisan workshop).

There are also a variety of other ways that notables can gain or lose power. The most familiar will probably be the flat power gains/losses as a reward/consequence of completing or failing quests. On top of this, if a notable has certain unsolved issues/quests they will also lose 1 power each day the quest remains unsolved (this includes the time while companions are sent on the mission, so there are extra drawbacks to sending companions).

Npc lords can also "complete" quests under certain conditions by entering a settlement that has an outstanding issue. The npc must be the leader of the clan that owns the settlement. Each time they enter, they have a 10% chance of completing a random quest in towns and villages, and a 30% chance in villages (edit: hotfix changed the village chance). I don't believe they receive any rewards for this. Edit: Issues also expire after some time if the player doesn't accept them. The time to expire varies depending on the issue.

Notables will gain 1 power each day if they are a supporter of the clan who owns the settlement (check their tooltip). This effect is huge, and is enough to overcome the daily decay until power climbs very high. This effect is what is responsible for certain notables having more than 500 power. Village notables that don't get this boost are usually the ones who quickly disappear.

If a notable has gold in excess of 10150 at the end of the day, the amount of gold over 10k will be converted into power according to the equation [(hero.Gold - 10000) / 150] and their gold will be set back to 10k. If a notable has less than 4850 gold at the end of the day, gold is set back to 5k, and power is removed according to the equation [(5000 - hero.Gold) / 150]. Workshops and caravans are notables' main sources of income.

Merchant notables can only own 1 caravan at a time, which will bring in money for them (which then gets converted into power). If their caravan is destroyed, they will lose a flat 30 power upon creating a new one. They also always pay the wages for the caravan out of pocket.

Workshops can be owned by any of the urban notables (except Artisans), and will gain them power through converted gold. If a workshop's capital ever runs out, a notable will declare bankruptcy, and the workshop is sold to another notable and its type is randomly changed. This is rare, but does happen.

Gang leaders own properties called "common areas" (e.g. waterfront, clearing). They earn 0.1 power per day for each owned common area. Gang leaders can lose control of common areas in behind-the-scenes "alley fights." Owing a common area also earns a gang leader 30 gold per day per area. I'd have to double check, but I think they pay wages for thugs occupying the common area (edit: nope). These common areas also have "productions" of their own (such as extortion), but I'd have to look into it more to see if it produces any other income (edit: They don't generate income as of right now. The production is cleared each week without having any effect). There is a lot of interesting stuff associated with criminal enterprises in the code though.

Notables in a village will each lose 5 power when their village gets fully raided.

As noted by others above, notables have a chance of disappearing each day if they are below 100 power and do not own any workshops, caravans, or common areas. This chance increases the lower their power falls. The % chance is determined by the equation [((100 - hero.Power) / 100) * 2].

The whole point of the system is that individual notables will equalize at certain power levels depending on their specific circumstances. My guess as to why notables can disappear is to get rid of "failed" notables that don't have the right conditions to survive, and to give the player some ability to manipulate a settlement's notables. It definitely still needs additional balancing.

So with all that in mind, what are some other conditions that you guys can think of that should cause notables to gain or lose power without being too redundant? For instance, currently the gold that is used to recruit troops just vanishes, but maybe it should go to the notable instead to boost the power of notables that are recruited from frequently (might be too powerful).

 

[TheWitchIzalith]

Alright, here are a bunch of details on how the notable power system works (as of beta 1.5.1) just to shine a light on it.

First of all, there is a universal power growth/decay modifier for all notables each day depending on current power level. The more powerful the notable, the greater the daily decay. The centerpoint is 100 power. Under 100 power they will gain power each day.
The exact equation for this decay is: [-1 x ((hero.Power - 100) / 500)].

Some notable types also have a separate baseline daily power gain to counteract the daily decay, and some have additional losses. Merchants get +0.3 power per day. Both types of village notables get +0.1. Gang leaders actually lose an extra -0.6 power per day. Artisans also lose an extra -1 per day (presumably because they own the Artisan workshop).

There are also a variety of other ways that notables can gain or lose power. The most familiar will probably be the flat power gains/losses as a reward/consequence of completing or failing quests. On top of this, if a notable has certain unsolved issues/quests they will also lose 1 power each day the quest remains unsolved (this includes the time while companions are sent on the mission, so there are extra drawbacks to sending companions).

Npc lords can also "complete" quests under certain conditions by entering a settlement that has an outstanding issue. The npc must be the leader of the clan that owns the settlement. Each time they enter, they have a 10% chance of completing a random quest in towns, and a 30% chance in villages. I don't believe they receive any rewards for this.

Notables will gain 1 power each day if they are a supporter of the clan who owns the settlement (check their tooltip). This effect is huge, and is enough to overcome the daily decay until power climbs very high. This effect is what is responsible for certain notables having more than 500 power. Village notables that don't get this boost are usually the ones who quickly disappear.

If a notable has gold in excess of 10150 at the end of the day, the amount of gold over 10k will be converted into power according to the equation [(hero.Gold - 10000) / 150] and their gold will be set back to 10k. If a notable has less than 4850 gold at the end of the day, gold is set back to 5k, and power is removed according to the equation [(5000 - hero.Gold) / 150]. Workshops and caravans are notables' main sources of income.

Merchant notables can only own 1 caravan at a time, which will bring in money for them (which then gets converted into power). If their caravan is destroyed, they will lose a flat 30 power upon creating a new one. They also always pay the wages for the caravan out of pocket.

Workshops can be owned by any of the urban notables, and will gain them power through converted gold. If a workshop's capital ever runs out, a notable will declare bankruptcy, and the workshop is sold to another notable and its type is randomly changed. This is rare, but does happen.

Gang leaders own properties called "common areas" (e.g. waterfront, clearing). They earn 0.1 power per day for each owned common area. Gang leaders can lose control of common areas in behind-the-scenes "alley fights." Owing a common area also earns a gang leader 30 gold per day per area. I'd have to double check, but I think they pay wages for thugs occupying the common area. These common areas also have "productions" of their own (such as extortion), but I'd have to look into it more to see if it produces income.

Notables in a village will each lose 5 power when their village gets fully raided.

As noted by others above, notables have a chance of disappearing each day if they are below 100 power and do not own any workshops, caravans, or common areas. This chance increases the lower their power falls.

The whole point of the system is that individual notables will equalize at certain power levels depending on their specific circumstances. My guess as to why notables can disappear is to get rid of "failed" notables that don't have the right conditions to survive, and to give the player some ability to manipulate a settlement's notables. It definitely still needs additional balancing.

So with all that in mind, what are some other conditions that you guys can think of that should cause notables to gain or lose power without being too redundant? For instance, currently the gold that is used to recruit troops just vanishes, but maybe it should go to the notable instead to boost the power of notables that are recruited from frequently (might be too powerful).

See this is what I mean when I say that Bannerlord has a lot of depth. It just needs to be communicated a bit better. I had zero idea about most of this.

How did you figure this all out? Did you just go into the inner workings of the code and decipher it all? However it was done, thanks for relaying it.


I like the idea of a Notable getting the gold for its recruits, and to balance that, perhaps they would lose gold per day, based on the rank of recruit that is still in the settlement? So if a bunch of high level troops are kicking around during peace time, the notable is "Paying" them to just kind of loaf about. I forget if better units cost more in villages, as I never pay attention to that anymore, but if the higher ones are recruited for a better price, it can cause a jump in power, that will drop again during peace time. Thematically it could also be bored soldiers cause trouble. Which makes the townsfolk mad at the notable to explain the negative upkeep per day.

I believe I read earlier that Warband had patrols, but I cant remember if that was base game or a mod.

If bandit populations get too high around the area (Number of bandits equal or greater to x > Deploy Patrol) then the notable could "Pay" to send out a small patrol to help guard the village. Costing him both gold, and maybe village prosperity/militia.

This in turn could cause defeated militia parties to become deserters if the bandits end up defeating them. Either by spawning a duplicate party as deserters, or causing the bandits to "Hire" said prisoners instead of just faffing about with them till a lord rescues them. Since people have been asking for deserters anyway, it would give another option to spawn them. Though I read somewhere that mexxxico is working on rebellions and such.

It would also create an alternative for Lords and Players to level their own troops on something different than regular looters / bandits. Since the deserter militia would be a step up, but still not as dangerous as Sea/Forest Bandits. (Im not in Khuzait land to speak enough on steppe bandits).

 

[Stromming]

Honestly, notables disappear way to often just because they have unfinished quests, and the player isn't going to run around and quest all day, lets be honest. Either decrease how negatively an unfinished quest affects their power, or make it so AI lords also does quests to at least a small degree.

It's also stupid that a village that starts with 3 notables can lose them and then regain them, but it never regains more than 2, so it actually permanently loses 1 notable.