You can also argue women have never fully recovered financially - making less money, smaller pensions, fewer positions of power (with high salaries).
Feminism
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I fully support this notion. At least half of my ancestors were women; the reparation money I would get for their suffering would make me filthy rich.
Who would pay and who would get it?
The thing is, for black Americans reparation is not a notion born out of an abstract concept of justice. There's still properties and land that were stolen from blacks and are now firmly in white people's hands. Companies that made their fortune on slavery that are still owned by white people, enjoying the money that their ancestors made on the blood of black people. I don't think most people who are suggesting reparations for black Americans want a random amount of money pulled out of nowhere. But the concept that people who are today still enjoying money made from slavery should give something back seems just fair to me.
And it's not like there's not a precedent. Germany has paid reparations for the Holocaust. Some would argue that the two historical events are comparable. I don't know that I am quite there myself (mostly because in the Holocaust there was the programmatic intent of wiping a population out of the face of the Earth), but I do think that black slavery and, most importantly, the long term impact that it has on people's lives even today are grossly underappreciated.
Reparations for women on the other hand seems tricky. As Jacob says, there were no women ghettos. Women and men lived together and their history is intertwined. We definitely still need to do more for gender equality though (I am an engineer, and some of the things I hear/see my colleagues say are cringe worthy).
Edit: I am confused by this
Does this take into account marriage? Although I suppose that people who have that much money will enter a pre-nupt. On the specific topic of billionaires, I have what I suppose is a bit of a controversial opinion. Which is that personal wealth should be capped at 1 billion dollar. I think that any amount of money above that should be given to people who actually need it.
And it's not like there's not a precedent. Germany has paid reparations for the Holocaust. Some would argue that the two historical events are comparable. I don't know that I am quite there myself (mostly because in the Holocaust there was the programmatic intent of wiping a population out of the face of the Earth), but I do think that black slavery and, most importantly, the long term impact that it has on people's lives even today are grossly underappreciated.
Reparations for women on the other hand seems tricky. As Jacob says, there were no women ghettos. Women and men lived together and their history is intertwined. We definitely still need to do more for gender equality though (I am an engineer, and some of the things I hear/see my colleagues say are cringe worthy).
Edit: I am confused by this
Does this take into account marriage? Although I suppose that people who have that much money will enter a pre-nupt. On the specific topic of billionaires, I have what I suppose is a bit of a controversial opinion. Which is that personal wealth should be capped at 1 billion dollar. I think that any amount of money above that should be given to people who actually need it.
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Thank you for saying that, I was afraid to say it. I'm not a communist, but I also don't see the point of billionaires or even multimillionaires. They often hide their money in tax havens and never give back to society or really contribute anything to. Of course there maybe an exception or two I'm not aware of but, that's beside the point. We need less billionaires, not more.
1 billion is way too much. 10 million is more than enough.
So how about you go **** yourself.
Except in patriarchal cultures, women could not inherit anything as everything belonged to their father or brother or husband. As late as the early 20th century, women in some European countries could not have a bank account under their own name or earn any money on their own. Their husband could take everything and run away. Meanwhile, gay people were routinely murdered even by their family members and it's pretty ****ing hard to inherit anything when you're 6 feet under the ground.
So how about you go **** yourself.
Wait what, I spent months organising solicitors for a contested inheritance. Easy? pah!
Jhessail, I assume that Calradiann bilgesi was talking about the situation in the developed world today, not historical situations. Besides, he is not the sort of person to express prejudice or hostility towards women or homosexuals, at least not on these forums. He could, of course, do it all the time in real life, but he has never done it here that I am aware of.
rektasaurus
Squire
Feminism is by nature of its name a discriminatory ideology. Its purpose on the other hand is non-discriminatory.
Most of the arguments I see setting up contemporary gender relations is a history lesson on how women were subjugated in the past and anecdotal experiences of sexism ending in how positions of power within the government and business are held mostly by men and not women.
Put obtusely, the core of feminist ideals is to promote gender equality, however my personal experience with feminists is a sense that they bitterly feel men have been driving the car, very badly, since the beginning of time and now they deserve a go at the wheel. I think this argument is fundamentally flawed and goes against the core tenet of gender equality and has at this point damaged the public perception of feminism to the point that it absolutely needs new branding if it is to continue its work to continue to bring gender equality to our society without damaging coming generations of boys and girls.
It has been an impossible topic for me to talk about with the people in my life. Even a neutral, unbiased, and genuinely gender equality supportive expression like the one above has been met with outright hostility and a reminder that I could never understand because I’m a man. As if I haven’t experienced sexism or been objectified myself.
I mean how could someone be against the “patriarchy” but then perceive submissive men as weak cucks without being inherently sexist themselves? If feminism is supposed to be about gender equality and a method to achieve that is to elevate women to the same “level” as men, what I really can’t understand is how taking the piss out of countless powerless men is supposed to achieve a better and more equitable society. I don’t think that this forum is a place to really search for answers or drive any change and I also don’t believe that there are many women here. Maybe someone can help me resolve the conflicts I feel about this topic because I feel a deep sense of disillusionment that I’ve not only compartmentalized the sexual attraction I feel toward the other sex but also that my insistence on treating the opposite gender as people first has been regarded with suspicion that I’m either a sociopath or homosexual. I’ve been accused of being a weak and an effeminate cry baby but I’ve also been accused of being damaged by the patriarchy by not acknowledging my emotions. I’ve been accused that I enjoy privilege by being a male and that sexual promiscuity (would’ve be nice if I actually had more than 3 or 4 partners my entire life but hey some poor bastards can’t even get 1) is somehow acceptable for me but I’ve also been accused of being a womanizing scumbag who has some sort of inherent and sexually deviant rapist desires.
I don’t see a double standard for women at this point in my life and in our society because the double standard I experience for men is a daily struggle slapping me in the face with oversized labia. I do know exactly how it feels to be equivalently “cat called” and not be sure of how to respond to it but I can’t throw a hashtag metoo on anything because it wasn’t a man doing it to me and I’m not a woman. I do know what it’s like to be emotionally manipulated and then outed for a private sexual encounter like a common whore and then called a homosexual because the lady wasn’t good looking enough. Any therapy hotline I’ve called to talk about matters is typically met with some cold person who passive-aggressively lets out “resting ****-face” comments or insinuates somehow that I’ve been googling and appropriating the female experience. Go try to get an std test at a planned parenthood if you’re a man. Good luck. They won’t even take your money. I have seen women gay bash straight men as if it was an insult but then in the same breath express that the lgbt community are allies against the patriarchy.
Almost every family I know has ended in divorce. And then old divorcees might complain that they don’t have someone to spend their twilight years with. A true tragedy. I mean isn’t finding someone agreeable to grow old together with part of the goal? So Harvey Weinstein would ask actresses to **** him for a job or face ruin... what does that have to do with the hundreds of millions of men who will never even have the opportunity to have such power over people to abuse?
I’ve been told my whole life that I enjoy privilege because I’m white and a man. I’d sure like to see it because I don’t. My privilege exists only in the minds of those who think themselves victims and judge me to be a perpetrator of some crime because of my anatomy and the color of my skin. And by some standards, I’m still not white enough to be considered white, American enough to be considered American, nor man enough to be considered a man.
So feminism? I don’t know. It seems immature to me to think that it could ever evolve into something that’s not inherently sexist because young girls are being taught to celebrate the feminine at the expense of the masculine without realizing that they embody the very characteristics of the patriarchy which they loathe.
I can’t help but feel cynical. Sure, women are flawless and men are to blame.
Most of the arguments I see setting up contemporary gender relations is a history lesson on how women were subjugated in the past and anecdotal experiences of sexism ending in how positions of power within the government and business are held mostly by men and not women.
Put obtusely, the core of feminist ideals is to promote gender equality, however my personal experience with feminists is a sense that they bitterly feel men have been driving the car, very badly, since the beginning of time and now they deserve a go at the wheel. I think this argument is fundamentally flawed and goes against the core tenet of gender equality and has at this point damaged the public perception of feminism to the point that it absolutely needs new branding if it is to continue its work to continue to bring gender equality to our society without damaging coming generations of boys and girls.
It has been an impossible topic for me to talk about with the people in my life. Even a neutral, unbiased, and genuinely gender equality supportive expression like the one above has been met with outright hostility and a reminder that I could never understand because I’m a man. As if I haven’t experienced sexism or been objectified myself.
I mean how could someone be against the “patriarchy” but then perceive submissive men as weak cucks without being inherently sexist themselves? If feminism is supposed to be about gender equality and a method to achieve that is to elevate women to the same “level” as men, what I really can’t understand is how taking the piss out of countless powerless men is supposed to achieve a better and more equitable society. I don’t think that this forum is a place to really search for answers or drive any change and I also don’t believe that there are many women here. Maybe someone can help me resolve the conflicts I feel about this topic because I feel a deep sense of disillusionment that I’ve not only compartmentalized the sexual attraction I feel toward the other sex but also that my insistence on treating the opposite gender as people first has been regarded with suspicion that I’m either a sociopath or homosexual. I’ve been accused of being a weak and an effeminate cry baby but I’ve also been accused of being damaged by the patriarchy by not acknowledging my emotions. I’ve been accused that I enjoy privilege by being a male and that sexual promiscuity (would’ve be nice if I actually had more than 3 or 4 partners my entire life but hey some poor bastards can’t even get 1) is somehow acceptable for me but I’ve also been accused of being a womanizing scumbag who has some sort of inherent and sexually deviant rapist desires.
I don’t see a double standard for women at this point in my life and in our society because the double standard I experience for men is a daily struggle slapping me in the face with oversized labia. I do know exactly how it feels to be equivalently “cat called” and not be sure of how to respond to it but I can’t throw a hashtag metoo on anything because it wasn’t a man doing it to me and I’m not a woman. I do know what it’s like to be emotionally manipulated and then outed for a private sexual encounter like a common whore and then called a homosexual because the lady wasn’t good looking enough. Any therapy hotline I’ve called to talk about matters is typically met with some cold person who passive-aggressively lets out “resting ****-face” comments or insinuates somehow that I’ve been googling and appropriating the female experience. Go try to get an std test at a planned parenthood if you’re a man. Good luck. They won’t even take your money. I have seen women gay bash straight men as if it was an insult but then in the same breath express that the lgbt community are allies against the patriarchy.
Almost every family I know has ended in divorce. And then old divorcees might complain that they don’t have someone to spend their twilight years with. A true tragedy. I mean isn’t finding someone agreeable to grow old together with part of the goal? So Harvey Weinstein would ask actresses to **** him for a job or face ruin... what does that have to do with the hundreds of millions of men who will never even have the opportunity to have such power over people to abuse?
I’ve been told my whole life that I enjoy privilege because I’m white and a man. I’d sure like to see it because I don’t. My privilege exists only in the minds of those who think themselves victims and judge me to be a perpetrator of some crime because of my anatomy and the color of my skin. And by some standards, I’m still not white enough to be considered white, American enough to be considered American, nor man enough to be considered a man.
So feminism? I don’t know. It seems immature to me to think that it could ever evolve into something that’s not inherently sexist because young girls are being taught to celebrate the feminine at the expense of the masculine without realizing that they embody the very characteristics of the patriarchy which they loathe.
I can’t help but feel cynical. Sure, women are flawless and men are to blame.
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Whatever its true meaning, the perception of feminism is deteriorating quickly thanks to those tendencies you described. The original or "true" meaning soon will(?) disappear and "feminist" will become an insult. It's kinda similar how the swastika is now the symbol of oppression and horror. Try to explain to a westerner that it's a buddhist symbol and it ought to mean something nice.
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About the whole marriage thing, my Dad has been divorced twice and my mom once and they are only 40.Only one younger generation relationship in my family lasted and its been going for 11 years but thats it all the others failed. Most kids in my School have divorced parents but here is the thing atleast in the US. Everything almost always goes to the mothers in divorces and that isn't always a good thing. I have a friend their parent is always on drugs(crack) and its the mom, but the dad has a stable job and isn't on anything, but the courts won't let him have the child this changed last year since the kid turned 16 and got to choose where he lived. At least where I live the courts are heavily weighted on the woman favor anything to do with a child.Also I am sorry but guys need father figures in our lives,cause our moms ain't going to teach us how to fix our own car, how to win a fight, fix any sort of house problems from roofing to plumping. Yeah that is pretty sexist assuming our moms don't know how to those things, but from my experience and my friends never got taught by there moms how to do this stuff. I am lucky were I get to spend a large amount of time with my Dad and know each other but other people are not so lucky.People also need mothers in there lives at the same time so a divorced family just doesn't work well and it honestly a problem in my generation.
rektasaurus
Squire
God I’m not attacking women nor the ideology of gender equality. I‘m not advocating for prejudice based on gender or race. I think there’s a problem if young women today are saying “I wouldn’t call myself a feminist but...” It ****ing sucks. Obviously there’s a problem with the movement and it’s not as simple as the effect of a successful republican smear campaign or something.
My experience matters too and if I can’t express the inconsistencies I’ve seen in the off topic section of a video game forum and ask for clarification then I don’t even know what to do with it but throw my hands up. I can be negatively effected by some aspect of feminism even if that wasn’t the intention of the movement and it’s not wrong to point that out. It’s not like I’m super invested either way and I don’t really care if there’s a matriarchy in place of a patriarchy.
My point is that at some point in time, in order for gender equality to persist in the least damaging fashion, an adversarial attitude needs to be replaced with one of cooperation and that is absolutely undeniable.
It’s an injustice if wanting to raise awareness for men’s issues is perceived as some sort of nascent incel state terrorist bull****. I’m not dog whistling here. If the sexism I’ve experienced is far less than the average sexism women experience, that doesn’t mean for one second that I didn’t experience sexism.
If feminists can’t acknowledge that and pivot to ensure women as well as men understand that raising a family takes a stable household then the movement is doomed.
Women need fathers too for ****s sake. If there was a worldwide movement focusing solely on toxic femininity and ignoring toxic masculinity I would be livid too. The whole idea is difficult for me to wrap my tiny brain around because if we’re pursuing gender equality shouldn’t it just be toxicity? Am I wrong?
My experience matters too and if I can’t express the inconsistencies I’ve seen in the off topic section of a video game forum and ask for clarification then I don’t even know what to do with it but throw my hands up. I can be negatively effected by some aspect of feminism even if that wasn’t the intention of the movement and it’s not wrong to point that out. It’s not like I’m super invested either way and I don’t really care if there’s a matriarchy in place of a patriarchy.
My point is that at some point in time, in order for gender equality to persist in the least damaging fashion, an adversarial attitude needs to be replaced with one of cooperation and that is absolutely undeniable.
It’s an injustice if wanting to raise awareness for men’s issues is perceived as some sort of nascent incel state terrorist bull****. I’m not dog whistling here. If the sexism I’ve experienced is far less than the average sexism women experience, that doesn’t mean for one second that I didn’t experience sexism.
If feminists can’t acknowledge that and pivot to ensure women as well as men understand that raising a family takes a stable household then the movement is doomed.
Women need fathers too for ****s sake. If there was a worldwide movement focusing solely on toxic femininity and ignoring toxic masculinity I would be livid too. The whole idea is difficult for me to wrap my tiny brain around because if we’re pursuing gender equality shouldn’t it just be toxicity? Am I wrong?
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Don't be so harsh on yourself, Evelyn hasn't said anything constructive in a long while. If it's helping, I understood what you meant.
The statistic from a decade ago was that about two thirds of marriages end within the first 16 years of it. That really puts sanctitiy of marriage arguments in a new perspective. Or, in the dustbin.
My parents ended up splitting too when I was in my teens, and I went (non-consciously) to seek out father figures instead of the nonexistent one. Because, yes, women make **** father figures, however surprising it is.
The statistic from a decade ago was that about two thirds of marriages end within the first 16 years of it. That really puts sanctitiy of marriage arguments in a new perspective. Or, in the dustbin.
My parents ended up splitting too when I was in my teens, and I went (non-consciously) to seek out father figures instead of the nonexistent one. Because, yes, women make **** father figures, however surprising it is.
Good boy, you told 'em! Here is a treat. Now go play on the railway tracks.
It is, though. Conservative propaganda groups have been actively working to make "feminist" a dirty word for over 100 years. The stereotypes we now associate with "modern feminism gone too far" have been around for longer than any of us have been alive.
Saying it's a problem with "the movement" as if we can just chat to the CEO of feminism is kind of meaningless. I can guarantee you that if conservatives didn't have access to basically infinite resources for waging a century-long propaganda campaign of bringing fringe radicals to the forefront, we wouldn't be having this conversation.
I could say the same for you, but where would that get us? That's a very bold claim to make, especially considering the conversation of substance that happened not too long ago. While my initial reply was not intended to be constructive, point, quite frankly there's no point in engaging with edgy reactionaries who don't understand the concept of what privilege actually *is*, and who then lash out angrily about it in a massive rant in a video game forum's feminism thread instead of actually trying to learn anything. Because the feminazis are oppressionizing the men. Obviously.
You could say the same, but you would be wrong. And his post wasn't edgy, it was well constructed and informative about his own experiences. You could try something like that too. And I don't know what conversation you talk about, but all your posts I remember were edgy and substanceless, so try not to throw so much calcified **** around in your fragile dwelling.
