Easy Solution to Improve Melee Combat post-1.5 patch

[Hans 77]

Rumor has it v1.5 will nerf kicking and its ease-of-use (which, after witnessing the recent RM vs. Unknown match, I feel is perfectly justified).

This brings up concerns about melee devolving into a slow-paced, never-ending, hit-block slugfest which no one would find enjoyable.

In view of this, I'd like to propose a suggestion on how to improve melee combat after kicks get banished. My ideas are not original -others have stated them before, but much of the wisdom on this forum gets buried under the constant drama/troll posts, so for the sake of hopefully improving the game going forward, it bears repeating.

The suggested improvements are as follows:

1. Lower shield HP

2. Reduce/eliminate secondary swing animation (hold delay) and block delay -thus improving the responsiveness of gameplay

Often times the simplest solutions are the best ones. No need to reinvent the wheel -just make sure it turns smoothly. By implementing the aforementioned ideas, combat will feel more dynamic, fast-paced, and aesthetic.

 

[rektasaurus]

Instead of lowering shield hp would it be possible to increase the damage one handed swords and axes do on foot? As it stands a halberd type or one handed weapon on horseback can take out at least a third to a half of shield hp with one hit depending on stance. Decreasing shield hp would make every strike received from mounted players destroy a shield too quickly much the same way a couched lance takes them out in one hit. And even on foot a glaive can take out a third of a shield’s hp with movement bonus and incorrect block direction.

Can we add nerf jav damage to the list? How a jav to the face can one hit and not a spear will never make sense to me. Maybe that in addition to making kicks harder is a good response to kickthrow?

 

[Hans 77]

As it stands a halberd type or one handed weapon on horseback can take out at least a third to a half of shield hp with one hit depending on stance

even on foot a glaive can take out a third of a shield’s hp with movement bonus and incorrect block direction

Menavlion and glaive are insanely broken, dealing damage way out of proportion to what they should be doing (less damage). Taleworlds' mismanagement of a few select weapons' stat balance shouldn't come into play regarding shield HP discussion.

I definitely agree with you about increasing 1H weapon damage and reducing throwing weapon damage -maybe have throwables deal less damage to players, but have a bonus against shields?

 

[Kripaz]

In my opinion shield behaviour should change so that if you block correctly it would not lose much hp (maybe little more than currently), but if you block incorrectly it loses way more hp so it wouldn't be that safe to downblock every attack.
I wouldn't drop shields hp too much, because we might start seeing archers breaking shields and would give more power to them.

 

[Hans 77]

I wouldn't drop shields hp too much, because we might start seeing archers breaking shields and would give more power to them

Good point, I'd suggest setting arrow and bolt damage output to shields to a minimal degree while keeping melee attacks on a normal scale.

 

[rektasaurus]

Yeah, currently it takes around half a quiver to destroy a shield. That seems finely tuned. Dropping shield hp without taking arrows into account would throw it off.

 

[azakhi]

In my opinion shield behaviour should change so that if you block correctly it would not lose much hp (maybe little more than currently), but if you block incorrectly it loses way more hp so it wouldn't be that safe to downblock every attack.

This is already case fyi but the difference might not be as much as you want. I believe it is 2x compared to correct side block.

I think lowering shield HP require other adjustments too. Curved two handed sword of Battania can already destroy some shields in a couple hits. If it is lowered even more, it will be even more of a pain to play with a shield against Battania in TDMs.

 

[GEO_MihaWk.]

This is already case fyi but the difference might not be as much as you want. I believe it is 2x compared to correct side block.

I think lowering shield HP require other adjustments too. Curved two handed sword of Battania can already destroy some shields in a couple hits. If it is lowered even more, it will be even more of a pain to play with a shield against Battania in TDMs.

Agreed but nobody is picking 2h classes in tournament games, well unless someone is jungling

 

[Younes]

2 handers have become very obsolete, especially in skirmish

 

[azakhi]

2 handers have become very obsolete, especially in skirmish

But TDM is full of them. If it gets other buffs too, it will become too annoying. It is clear that modes need separate balancing and I meant that by "other adjustments".

 

[rektasaurus]

Ever the naysayer here. I’d like to point out that currently tdm (and duel when it’s populated) are the only places I have to practice for skirmish (or captain). I firmly believe tdm is a place where one should be able to go to warmup or practice for the other modes, not to be considered only as its own standalone game mode. Changes that are applied differently to different game modes should take this into consideration. Two handed classes which behave very differently between tdm and skirmish, for example, would mean that practice in one would not apply to the other. Something like much stronger shields in tdm vs skirmish would be more bearable, and tbh a very welcome change.

 

[azakhi]

Ever the naysayer here. I’d like to point out that currently tdm (and duel when it’s populated) are the only places I have to practice for skirmish (or captain). I firmly believe tdm is a place where one should be able to go to warmup or practice for the other modes, not to be considered only as its own standalone game mode. Changes that are applied differently to different game modes should take this into consideration. Two handed classes which behave very differently between tdm and skirmish, for example, would mean that practice in one would not apply to the other. Something like much stronger shields in tdm vs skirmish would be more bearable, and tbh a very welcome change.

I understand, good point. But why should TDM be the practice place for other modes and have its enjoyment hurt for that reason? Also there are ways to balance around that will not hurt your practice, like a very simple yet effective one would be prices. I would argue same for the shield HP.

There are players who prefer to play TDM just for fun. Balancing around Skirmish is already hurting.

 

[Younes]

But TDM is full of them. If it gets other buffs too, it will become too annoying. It is clear that modes need separate balancing and I meant that by "other adjustments".

It's why i said skirmish, in TDM it's full of them because the random spawns ensure you never expect to know where the 2 handers come from. You also can't really do much when a stack of em are running towards you. In skirmish this doesn't work so well because having only 6 players, you can just tear down the enemy

 

[rektasaurus]

Good point. I don’t have a good response to that question. Tdm balance shouldn’t be shackled to the other modes. Maybe my suggestion was more of a response to others posts asking for dramatic changes to the classes across different game modes than to what you said. Simple changes like you mentioned, price, shield hp, which would benefit tdm’s enjoyment are a good thing.

 

[Rangah]

I think TDM is at a pretty good place where it lets people enjoy any class atm. Buffing 2 handers JUST to make them work in skirmish seems like a bit of an unnecessary leap. It is the same situation as Warband, where 2 handers are only used in edge cases in a competitive setting because they're just vulnerable by their very nature as a class unless made unreasonably OP. Is this really such a big issue though? Eventually people will find some edge cases for 2 handers in skirmish too.

I'm not a big fan of drastic separate balancing for PvP gamemodes either as it could potentially create even bigger gaps in playerbases because people would like how a certain class works in a certain gamemode only. Perhaps something like giving 2 handers a small shield on skirmish only could work.

 

[Hans 77]

To specify, I created this thread with mainly Skirmish Mode in mind.

That being said -not to get off topic, but as someone who has respect and reverence for TDM and its important role within the multiplayer community, I'd just like to point out that shield health is pretty far down on list of TDM's balancing issues.

I'd rank the haphazard spawn points, lack of friendly fire, and the ability to abuse menavlions and glaives on horseback as much more pressing threats to the overall balance of Team Deathmatch rather than whether one's shield can survive an extra hit or two.

P.S. @rektasaurus, TDM is its own unique game mode, mutually exclusive from Skirmish, Captain, and Siege. While it's certainly a place where you can practice mechanics and fundamentals that transfer across all mode types, it's not meant to be a de facto training ground for Skirmish or a Skirmish simulator -because TDM is its own beast and it plays out invariably different from Skirmish.

Unless your location doesn't allow you to feasibly access one of the Skirmish servers, I'd suggest simply queuing up for Skirmish if you want to practice Skirmish.

 

[Younes]

I think TDM is at a pretty good place where it lets people enjoy any class atm. Buffing 2 handers JUST to make them work in skirmish seems like a bit of an unnecessary leap

This, i still stand by that perks should be very different between gamemodes. Right now its a balancing hell to have an harmony balance between all gamemodes where one focuses on a 6v6 when the other focuses on an almost FFA

 

[Piconi]

people would like how a certain class works in a certain gamemode only.

This is already the case tho even with the same perk/price/stats balancing.

 

[Rangah]

This, i still stand by that perks should be very different between gamemodes.

Yes, perks and gear choices can and almost should be different within reasonable limits considering each class, but base stats like movement etc., should stay the same.

This is already the case tho even with the same perk/price/stats balancing.

Indeed, and that's because of the difference in nature of each gamemode and that's completely normal and cool. I just fear that classes behaving quite differently across gamemodes due to deliberate balance decisions might introduce another layer of seperation. Perhaps it's an irrational worry, who knows.

e: and to be fair, it's quite unlikely that the average guy favouring siege/tdm for a bit of fun is suddenly going to start grinding away skirmish/battle (hopefully :d) anyway, so eh. probably yapping a bit too much here

 

[azakhi]

That being said -not to get off topic, but as someone who has respect and reverence for TDM and its important role within the multiplayer community, I'd just like to point out that shield health is pretty far down on list of TDM's balancing issues.

I'd rank the haphazard spawn points, lack of friendly fire, and the ability to abuse menavlions and glaives on horseback as much more pressing threats to the overall balance of Team Deathmatch rather than whether one's shield can survive an extra hit or two.

Agreed. Sorry for going off topic. I would happy if designers didn't prioritize TDM over any other as long as it is not forgotten.