Biyonik
Sergeant
Ofcourse nobody is going to kick after seeing you swing, thats not what i meant. But if you released your swing right before your opponent was going to kick, you can hit them.
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Kickslash
- Thread starter Sarranid The Wibba
- Start date
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Sergeant
I think this is the most important point.
Most of us don't know in what ways kicks are changing, should probably wait to see but it's a good discussion anyhow
That is the point, you usually can't. This is because kicks are used when attacking and putting pressure on the enemy which usually has no way to react to that.
That is why i personally don't think offensive kicks should be' the common way to use kicks, they should rather be' used more in a "Defensive" way when you predict exactly the enemy footwork
Biyonik
Sergeant
You can just A-D to avoid kicks instead of backpedalling, works like a charm.
Aprikosenmann
Knight
Kicking is as complicated as feinting is. There are weak kicks/feints and there are strong kicks/feints. There are people who cannot block/dodge and there are people that can. I think the whole kicking topic is as fair as feinting is. Training and Talent decide if you can dodge kicks.
I would say that 10% of the damage dealt comes from successfull offensive kicks in high level duels.
For example in the Ft69 against OneOrThree I did today, there were like 20-30 successfull kicks and we are both passionate kickers.
I don't know If I remember wrong but in Warband you could block everything besides stabs during kicking. I think only in the super high skill duels kicks very punished seriously due to movement?
It's similar in BL. If you miss an offensive kick the following happens:
-you loose the initiative
-enemy gets around you since you cannot turn -> harder to block
-you can be easier kicked since you stand still (yes this is used)
@Aprikosenmann did anyone document the FT69?
Aprikosenmann
Knight
Nah, 2,5 hours would be kinda boring anyways. It also was without health resetting since that would double the time.
What?
On this specifically it rather looked like what it is today still: DM is active in the scene and Gibby and Entourage lost 9-0 because they are not. I wouldn't blame it on kicks alone.
"The best counter to a kick is another kick"
Yeah. And this is why these things are getting nerfed. Hopefully hard. People who commit to the stunlock need to realize just how absurd the kick meta appears from a spectators perspective. Witnessing this small enclave of kick defenders grow and fight for its freedom has been extremely fascinating. Its like peering through a microscope at a world you cannot even fathom.
rektasaurus
Squire
NA meta always lags behind EU.
Allowing kickslash to be chamberable will likely be seen as something that is prohibitively difficult to implement. At least the way I understand it. On successful kick, the defending player would have to be able to wind up a swing basically while they are still stunned and then deliver the attack if the chamber is successful but receive the attack if not. Just thinking about the implementation twists my mind up. And at any rate it still doesn’t solve the problem of e key being un-counterable except for keeping distance and also doesn’t solve the issue that throws or shots can’t be chambered or blocked at all.
Kicks annoy me on an aesthetic level but I do enjoy them thoroughly during boxing. Sticking your foot out further than your sword against an opponent who has a sword themselves seems intuitively like a very bad idea. However I see that kicks serve as a way of stepping inside someone’s guard and there is nothing else which simulates this behavior and so kicks, while some may think are annoying, op, or look ugly, serve a crucial function. I would shy away from thinking about it in terms of kicks being tw mixing karate with hema but think instead that the “e” key is the game mechanic of unexpectedly stepping inside someone’s guard and interrupting their defense or offense. I mean there is nothing else that stands in for grappling in melee or using means other than the sword to push away an opponent who has gotten too close and is applying too much pressure. Or maybe I might just want to use my hand to pull open my opponent’s shield after they’ve turtled into a corner.
I consider then how would I prevent someone from stepping inside my guard?
Currently the only way to prevent someone from stepping in and stunning me is to keep my distance or run away and this is the issue that bugs players, especially those who have purist tendencies or aggressive playstyles.
Thus I believe the best idea I’ve read to deal with e key being op is including somehow the ability to block them, perhaps make the movement more telegraphed and easily avoidable, and include a recovery period on a missed interrupt.
Imho shield/pommelbash is also an issue, maybe moreso than the kick because it’s much more difficult to sidestep and punish a shield/pommelbash since it has an attack arc.
On that note, why isn’t shield/pommelbash slash/throw/shot a thing?
Allowing kickslash to be chamberable will likely be seen as something that is prohibitively difficult to implement. At least the way I understand it. On successful kick, the defending player would have to be able to wind up a swing basically while they are still stunned and then deliver the attack if the chamber is successful but receive the attack if not. Just thinking about the implementation twists my mind up. And at any rate it still doesn’t solve the problem of e key being un-counterable except for keeping distance and also doesn’t solve the issue that throws or shots can’t be chambered or blocked at all.
Kicks annoy me on an aesthetic level but I do enjoy them thoroughly during boxing. Sticking your foot out further than your sword against an opponent who has a sword themselves seems intuitively like a very bad idea. However I see that kicks serve as a way of stepping inside someone’s guard and there is nothing else which simulates this behavior and so kicks, while some may think are annoying, op, or look ugly, serve a crucial function. I would shy away from thinking about it in terms of kicks being tw mixing karate with hema but think instead that the “e” key is the game mechanic of unexpectedly stepping inside someone’s guard and interrupting their defense or offense. I mean there is nothing else that stands in for grappling in melee or using means other than the sword to push away an opponent who has gotten too close and is applying too much pressure. Or maybe I might just want to use my hand to pull open my opponent’s shield after they’ve turtled into a corner.
I consider then how would I prevent someone from stepping inside my guard?
Currently the only way to prevent someone from stepping in and stunning me is to keep my distance or run away and this is the issue that bugs players, especially those who have purist tendencies or aggressive playstyles.
Thus I believe the best idea I’ve read to deal with e key being op is including somehow the ability to block them, perhaps make the movement more telegraphed and easily avoidable, and include a recovery period on a missed interrupt.
Imho shield/pommelbash is also an issue, maybe moreso than the kick because it’s much more difficult to sidestep and punish a shield/pommelbash since it has an attack arc.
On that note, why isn’t shield/pommelbash slash/throw/shot a thing?
Your are missing that the shield bash can be used to gain distance. It is just not effective because it neither breaks a block nor does it hit as consistently as a kick. I would personally just suggest to wait until the next patch and see what TW has in mind. Maybe just decreasing the range and making the hitbox smaller plus lengthen the animation does the trick and this discussion is done.
rektasaurus
Squire
Ah, yes, I see. And I thought I was doing something wrong with the bashes that didn’t break guard. Didn’t realize that it couldn’t!
my 2 cents: current kick is too strong, but I still think it should be usable as an offensive tool, with some way to counter it via timing rather than just “moving out the way”. Last I heard (the upcoming combat changes) the animation will be made longer so it’s easier to punish a miss and harder to land the kick, and therefore a kick slash. Do not ****ing quote me on that though.
Also can we stop bringing up duels as a reason for kicks being balanced? That’s a tiny portion of the game, and balancing combat around 1v1 is how you get a balance mess like the 2handed classes.
Also can we stop bringing up duels as a reason for kicks being balanced? That’s a tiny portion of the game, and balancing combat around 1v1 is how you get a balance mess like the 2handed classes.
+1 Agree with all of this.
Kicks was a large factor for losing the infantry fights as they were constant and consecutive one after another to the point where it was impossible for Gibby to engage as infantry - it was that bad. Obviously it's not the sole reason but damn it was a major factor.
People keep talking about kick meta in duels and not in skirmish. It's completely different in skirmish, grinds my gears that people keep talking about it from a 1v1 perspective, it's being nerfed because of its use in skirmish, it was extremely OP to the point you can practically win matches from pressing E.
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rektasaurus
Squire
Or you can surround a player and just kick him to death. Such a meme. I’m, for one, for sure considering skirmish mode and not duel but since the distinction is brought up I think about what it would look like if you get 3 - 4 players sitting in cap with shields. Say cav is not an option and e key doesn’t exist. Would the game be better to have to be forced to break their shields before being able to move them off cap? Serious question.
Is the battle being referenced a different mode than skirmish?
Is the battle being referenced a different mode than skirmish?
As @Aprikosenmann mentions, I think it comes down to whether you train for them or not. I've seen several people change their playstyle almost immediately when they realized kicks were a threat in that some people used very minimal footwork and got punished for it.
As it stands, the bottom line is if your opponent is standing in front of you or moving straight towards you without an immediate threat, they will get punished with a kick slash.
I don't necessarily see a problem with this. If 2 players are standing so close, the player with the more accurate kicks or who has initiative will get the first kick off. If a player is just standing and reacting or running straight into another player, they will be punished.
That's all fine and well imo. The problem is that if you miss a kick or kick too aggressively, there's not much in the way of punishment. Having a longer recovery time and disabling blocks during kicks would go a long way in resolving that issue.
I don't think that the anecdote of Gibby's team getting destroyed goes very far, as from what I can see they haven't trained much in Bannerlord, let alone kicking.
+1M, first time agreeing with fietta btw
