TaleWorlds News: New News Necessary for the OT Neophytes
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Unless we are talking about states, as those should have mechanisms to ensure, well, less oppression in place (be it ombudsman, various human rights committees attached to the government or to the legislative bodies, NGOs dealing with the issue, indirectly also the judiciary and the academia), then it absolutely is the role of the oppressed. For the simple reason that unless the oppression takes form of killing, maiming or very visible discrimination, noone else is going to do that for them. If both the extent and the existence of said oppression is disputed by the majority, partly by the ignorance of the issue, but also vis-à-vis the issue, then who exactly bears the burden of explanation? The majority in that it will actively search the oppression even though it does not believe in its existence or importance in the first place? That would be a very brave assumption.
Yes, explaining things over and over may be tiring, but especially in the everyday life, it simply is the role of the oppressed.
I know you might think I'm being an obtuse troll, but I don't mean to be rude. I want to avoid that.
As Kobrag says, "sex refers to the body". Does that mean I can say a transgender person is biologically a man (if their sex is male) even if that person refers to herself as female? Or is that an insult?
The basic question is: is sex/biology objective?
I am sorry for the late reply (I went to sleep), I do actually have quite a fair bit of evidence to back up what I said which is why I was confident enough to go to sleep without mentioning it.
It's fairly obvious, but the first piece of evidence comes from Pixel and Evelyn themselves who have admitted the situation hasn't changed at all, which means their method does not work.
The second piece of evidence comes from what I explained in an earlier post on the previous page. Using violence, whether verbal, written or physical is counterproductive. It just makes people more resistant to what you are trying to say. They won't actually listen. And in the case of physical violence where it escalates to actual revolutionaries, well think about it, do the people they kill have changed their ways or are they simply dead? And did the people who oppose them ever stop? Just because they won a lot of battles? No. The answer is always no. Revolutionaries change the balance of power, reformists change the society. Every authoritarian dictator knows this trick in the form of propaganda; Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin, Pol Pot, Kim Il-sung...
My first historical evidence is the war of secession and before that, John Brown. John Brown's terrorist activities are a factor in escalating the tensions between the north and south and it undermined the cause of abolitionists. Later, despite the lost of the CSA, the society of the states in the south didn't change and it fact their loss aggravated the racism in those states with more violence in the forms of the dreaded KKK. And in fact, even in the north, society didn't change. War changed nothing but the balance of power between north and south, society itself remained the same. The changes only started to ignite later...
My second historical evidence is the revolution in Saint-Domingue (Haiti) and before that, François Mackendal. Not only did the revolution fail to change the societal values of rich whites, middle class whites, the free people of colour and the people back in France, but the revolution itself failed to uphold its ideals by forcing its soldiers to work for free to continue fuelling the war economy and all that violence instilled in the freed people a perpetual sense of distrust towards white people. In the end, the revolution and the state of Haiti was pointed at as the reason why slaves shouldn't be free. It undermined the advances early abolitionists had made in the world and the us. The majority of those aforementioned three other classes ended up being murdered or fleeing the isle.
My third historical evidence is the Canadian Revolution. The rebels failed to gain popularity despite the fact that prior to rebelling, the Parti Patriote of Louis-Joseph Papineau had gained tremendous popularity, in effect the rebels undermined the reformist efforts of Papineau and the damages they did to their cause were only starting to recover during the Quiet Revolution, a hundred and twenty years later...
And there are many, many more instances of history which provide evidence for what I am saying. History does not prove me wrong.
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it does become plainly insulting when intentionally refer to them as "he" while crowing about their personal medical issues and how ironic it is.
a less disrespectful version of your post might have been "i met a trans woman once whose personal medical issues are nobody's business but her own", for instance.
what they said was that years of trying to explain things over and over and over didn't work. that's the opposite of evidence for your claim. there's more to say about the rest of your post but i don't want to derail too much.
I've been here, but given the slow, dying community and just godawful unbearable forum interface, I tend to keep to the Community Games board.
What Monty (Antoine de Saint-Exupery) said. But assuming that were the case, that's only one thing it could mean. I think it's a stretch to say things not changing on a forum scale is hard proof that a method doesn't work in general.
It's true revolutions have not always been successful, but to say they have never been successful is quite blatantly wrong and history shows that. For every example of a failure you can name, I can name some successful ones as could others. Even you yourself named some violent revolts and rebellions that brought about real, tangible change. The problem is that being nice all the time just means people can freely ignore you. Getting angry does work. We're seeing that today, in dozens of US cities, even.
But honestly, that's all beside the point, and this is literally just your diversion tactic. Listen to Ev.
The question was if sex is objective. Would it be wrong to write "the patient is biologically male" e.g., or is that an insult (if the person identifies as female)?
(Her medical issues are not her own, but also mine, since she's sick, and I'm a nurse)
it is not ours is my point, silly.
it would not as such be wrong, it could be insulting depending on how. as explained.
it would not as such be wrong, it could be insulting depending on how. as explained.
Alright, just caught up with this...discussion. To say I'm disappointed is a massive understatement. I've lurked on this forum barely half a year and I can already tell I've made a mistake.
Turns out, TaleWorlds is exactly the same orgy of basement-dwelling dudebrohistorygamer pseudointellectual slug****s as the rest of them. Y'all gonna stick to your edgy crusader and attack helicopter memes and not give a single damn who it hurts because deep down you don't think the people you make fun of deserve your empathy anyway.
And then the second someone calls any of y'all out on it, suddenly the jokes get quiet and everyone's uncomfortable? What's the matter, did Antoine and Evelyn hurt your feewings? Listen, I've seen a thing or two. I've seen righteous fury before. Those two are Mr. Rogers and Mary Berry as far as y'all are concerned, but even that slightest tinge of actual opposition to harmful viewpoints is enough to get you people uneasy and start throwing the overhand and underhand attacks. That is bull****, plain and simple. What's even more disturbing is that Eveleyn apparently has been at this for literal years trying to talk to y'all about trans rights and not only has it been the same nonsense every time, but moderators have done nothing?! What. The. F U C K!? I guess it's not explicitly written against in the Code of Conduct, that makes it not an issue???
And boy hey golly-geez-holy-bullfornicating-damn-howdy it sure is fun seeing the exact same [garden fertilizer] taking place in this thread just like it has every other damn forum. You got your instigator @Adorno backpedaling from preaching outright after being called out, going for the tried-and-true "open-minded" poser route where he attempts to "understand the facts" while in reality he's been exposed to and had the opportunity to do JUST THIS for a LONG time and is only attempting to appear rational so he can not-so-subtly shoehorn his own beliefs from the safety of fortification. Then you've got @Abraxium coming out of the woodwork to be a ??????? concern troll, like, this is exactly what I'd expect from someone who I told to pretend to concern troll to demonstrate to students of forumology. True to form we've got little fish like @Cyborg Eastern European trying to join the dogpile and chip away at the main threat, @Evelyn, who as if by coincidence seems to be putting in the most effort in actually trying to defend trans people (though not to disparage the effort of others).
Ain't it nice how the Code of Conduct says "We don't want to offend or corrupt anyone" but transphobia, the defense thereof and attacks on people trying to call it out are 100% okay for the kiddos? Yeah, ah ha, okay.
It actually sounds a lot like you're talking about the people trying to fight exactly that, which somehow makes both you and your fragile juvenile sense of control uncomfortable, for some reason. Are they the "cesspit" you implicitly dogwhistle about? How fascinating!
You seem to prefer that bygone age of when you were a literal child and nobody talked about the tough realities of life and wish to return to that state just so you can be comfortable. The disenfranchised masses be damned, it's your peace of mind that ultimately matters. You poor little privileged human equivalent of Season 9 of Scrubs. It's time to grow up. You don't want "peace", you want people to shut up and I've had it up to here with that kind of cowardice. Peace and order for peace and order's sake will get you neither.
@Zombie Warrior Okay, I'll make an exception for you because 1) you seem genuinely interested in learning instead of just pretending to be and 2) you remind me of me in the past when I had those same concerns, questions and views. Hopefully that means what I have to say will be easier to understand from your perspective.
First off if you haven't seen someone so "combative and passionate" then that honestly just means you're unexposed to...well, actually activism in general. Evelyn is being overwhelmingly tame and civil here, you can trust me on that.
Second, your heart's totes in the right place, but it sounds...inexperienced, I hope is a good word, and I hope I'm not patronizing because this is important. I actually agree with you on a lot of the philosophy you seem to hold, and I'm willing to bet some of the other people in this thread do, too. Do we have a "war of words"? Yes! A war of ideas, however, is more accurate. Do wars of ideas require special rules of engagement? Yes! Do I think it's important to be self-aware of how the other side perceives you? Absolutely! Your own behavior in this thread and its effects are proof of that. However...
"civility" has its limits. At the point where 'civility' just becomes a state of being that can easily be ignored, it simply becomes a tool used by oppressors to keep the oppressed from interfering with the status quo. You can be "civil" all day long and they can rest easy knowing that whatever they're trying to keep from changing isn't in any danger at all. At that point, if you want change, you have to make noise and get in faces. No, they're not going to like it, but that's tough, they had their chance to listen and be empathetic. 'Civility' only works in the context where the people you're trying to get to embrace change are open to it to begin with. If your civility is ignored, especially as actual harm continues to happen, then you have to go one level up. If power is all they're concerned about, you need to take it away from them.
Your idea that "revolutionaries" as you put it can't change society is, however, patently false, and a lot of history is built around direct action bringing about change when civil reform routes were held back and suppressed. John Brown is a terrible example for you to use that tells me there's more about the American Civil War you need to catch up on. Basically, it would be very naive to think slavery would have been abolished peacefully or that it would have been a quick and easy process. That's straight out of the Lost Causer's book trying to make the North look like an aggressor. Take it from a Southerner -- there was no way in HELL plantation owners were going to give up their slaves simply by telling them it's wrong. The Civil War ENDED with the formal abolition of slavery - it literally took a violent act for people to bring about change because of the incomprehensible resistance to the civil route.
I'll give you a better case study in the civil rights movements of the 60s: the NAACP had been around since 1909; their approach was to civilly work within the system and rely on the decency of white lawmakers and politicians to get things done. Since the majority of those people had no decency, every trick in the book was put against them to ensure that any social progress tried by the NAACP was at an absolute snailpace, and could easily be pushed back. It took groups like the SCLC, SNCC and the multitudes of brave individuals to rebel against the status quo, open their mouths and occupy whites-only areas to force the system to listen to them. Make no mistake, it got ugly. Pro-segregation news outlasts absolutely dropped the "uncivil rioters" label on the protesters along with many other more disgusting ones, but then...wow! Things actually start to happen! Segregation ends! Interracial marriage is legal! No more "literacy tests" specifically aimed to prevent African-Americans from voting! It's not cool to say the N word anymore! All these things that should have happened a long time ago if the people in charge were willing to listen, but they gave no other choice. So yeah, revolutions can work, riots can work (they're even working today!), being rude can work, if the peaceful options have been exhausted.
And in our case, they have. Adorno, for example, hasn't actually learned anything, nor is he actually "receptive to ideas which are foreign to his understanding." He's been using a very boring tactic in which he sounds like the open-minded civil one just 'trying to learn', but the "questions" he gives are actually statements of his own beliefs in disguise in attempt to discredit his opponents. It's a common strategy used by people to sneak in without being immediately detected, find cracks and then start attacking that crack in some kind of "gotcha!" moment in which they declare that X now has no merit. I've seen it in discussions of racial issues, sexuality, religion, and here we've got transphobia. The very least that's warranted is him getting called an *******. I'm sure his ego is strong enough to handle it. Right?
I'm so sick of this. Every ****ing den of sheltered right-wing nerds, it's always the same.
Conversations like these should never be happening. The existence and right to identity of millions of people shouldn't be something that has to be explained, debated and justified. And this kind of behavior definitely shouldn't be condoned by any mod team.
If only you people ****ing knew the kind of pain that this bull**** causes. But you have absolutely zero plans to even begin to understand because it doesn't affect you, it doesn't affect your monolithic group of friends, it's out of sight and out of mind. That very fact alone should mean that you have nothing to lose by not being a transphobic bigot, but isn't human behavior fascinatingly chaotic?
I'm just gonna put this out here - at the end of the day, it doesn't matter what you think about gender or sex.
It doesn't matter if it doesn't make sense to you.
It doesn't matter if you think people are wrong.
What matters is there are living people who want nothing more than to spend the short time we all have on this Earth, beautiful as it is cruel, in some level of comfort with their own existence. Instead of actually having the basic empathetic skills to allow them this, everything including the kitchen sink is thrown at them to discredit the very concept as a whole and label them all freaks, and y'all have absolutely contributed to this. All of you are subjected to the same damn mortal life and denying a group the right to peacefully enjoy theirs is how you decide to spend it?
You should all be ashamed of yourselves.
Turns out, TaleWorlds is exactly the same orgy of basement-dwelling dudebrohistorygamer pseudointellectual slug****s as the rest of them. Y'all gonna stick to your edgy crusader and attack helicopter memes and not give a single damn who it hurts because deep down you don't think the people you make fun of deserve your empathy anyway.
And then the second someone calls any of y'all out on it, suddenly the jokes get quiet and everyone's uncomfortable? What's the matter, did Antoine and Evelyn hurt your feewings? Listen, I've seen a thing or two. I've seen righteous fury before. Those two are Mr. Rogers and Mary Berry as far as y'all are concerned, but even that slightest tinge of actual opposition to harmful viewpoints is enough to get you people uneasy and start throwing the overhand and underhand attacks. That is bull****, plain and simple. What's even more disturbing is that Eveleyn apparently has been at this for literal years trying to talk to y'all about trans rights and not only has it been the same nonsense every time, but moderators have done nothing?! What. The. F U C K!? I guess it's not explicitly written against in the Code of Conduct, that makes it not an issue???
And boy hey golly-geez-holy-bullfornicating-damn-howdy it sure is fun seeing the exact same [garden fertilizer] taking place in this thread just like it has every other damn forum. You got your instigator @Adorno backpedaling from preaching outright after being called out, going for the tried-and-true "open-minded" poser route where he attempts to "understand the facts" while in reality he's been exposed to and had the opportunity to do JUST THIS for a LONG time and is only attempting to appear rational so he can not-so-subtly shoehorn his own beliefs from the safety of fortification. Then you've got @Abraxium coming out of the woodwork to be a ??????? concern troll, like, this is exactly what I'd expect from someone who I told to pretend to concern troll to demonstrate to students of forumology. True to form we've got little fish like @Cyborg Eastern European trying to join the dogpile and chip away at the main threat, @Evelyn, who as if by coincidence seems to be putting in the most effort in actually trying to defend trans people (though not to disparage the effort of others).
Ain't it nice how the Code of Conduct says "We don't want to offend or corrupt anyone" but transphobia, the defense thereof and attacks on people trying to call it out are 100% okay for the kiddos? Yeah, ah ha, okay.
You've got things in this thread like literal advocating of trolling people, going unattended. So the mods really don't seem to give a damn about behavior supporting the status quo, do they?Well, I could try taking a dump on the General History Questions thread, but frankly, I was never that good at riling her up.
Which is a shame, since it's a thing of beauty to see.
From the rest of your posts, it sure sounds like you're not talking about the people trying to suppress human rights and the physical, mental and spiritual well being of others, which includes not allowing people to determine their own lives. Y'know, actual cesspit dwellers.
It actually sounds a lot like you're talking about the people trying to fight exactly that, which somehow makes both you and your fragile juvenile sense of control uncomfortable, for some reason. Are they the "cesspit" you implicitly dogwhistle about? How fascinating!
You seem to prefer that bygone age of when you were a literal child and nobody talked about the tough realities of life and wish to return to that state just so you can be comfortable. The disenfranchised masses be damned, it's your peace of mind that ultimately matters. You poor little privileged human equivalent of Season 9 of Scrubs. It's time to grow up. You don't want "peace", you want people to shut up and I've had it up to here with that kind of cowardice. Peace and order for peace and order's sake will get you neither.
I've noticed nursing school seems to be significantly less focused on critical thinking and the details of things like biology and psychology so much as learning how to directly apply care by the book. Not ****ting on how hard of a job nursing is, but there seem to be a multitude who are anti-vax or anti-GMO or some other self-inflicted brain injury. As such, outside of the subject of straight up caregiving, I'm highly skeptical of people who rely mainly on "I'm a RN" as ethos for their opinions.
What. A. Shocker. You mean someone would willingly run their mouth about something they know absolutely nothing about, about people they know absolutely nothing about, which also means they have no idea what it's like for trans people when some Dunning-Krueger ******* tries to explain away their right of existence? Surely if they did, and assuming their parents raised them up right, they would realize the horrible and real pains they caused and quickly deem themselves a dirtbag in need of self-improvement. This is assuming an ideal world where "a sense of decency and basic empathy" is something everyone chooses to have.
We do not live in an ideal world.
@Zombie Warrior Okay, I'll make an exception for you because 1) you seem genuinely interested in learning instead of just pretending to be and 2) you remind me of me in the past when I had those same concerns, questions and views. Hopefully that means what I have to say will be easier to understand from your perspective.
First off if you haven't seen someone so "combative and passionate" then that honestly just means you're unexposed to...well, actually activism in general. Evelyn is being overwhelmingly tame and civil here, you can trust me on that.
Second, your heart's totes in the right place, but it sounds...inexperienced, I hope is a good word, and I hope I'm not patronizing because this is important. I actually agree with you on a lot of the philosophy you seem to hold, and I'm willing to bet some of the other people in this thread do, too. Do we have a "war of words"? Yes! A war of ideas, however, is more accurate. Do wars of ideas require special rules of engagement? Yes! Do I think it's important to be self-aware of how the other side perceives you? Absolutely! Your own behavior in this thread and its effects are proof of that. However...
"civility" has its limits. At the point where 'civility' just becomes a state of being that can easily be ignored, it simply becomes a tool used by oppressors to keep the oppressed from interfering with the status quo. You can be "civil" all day long and they can rest easy knowing that whatever they're trying to keep from changing isn't in any danger at all. At that point, if you want change, you have to make noise and get in faces. No, they're not going to like it, but that's tough, they had their chance to listen and be empathetic. 'Civility' only works in the context where the people you're trying to get to embrace change are open to it to begin with. If your civility is ignored, especially as actual harm continues to happen, then you have to go one level up. If power is all they're concerned about, you need to take it away from them.
Your idea that "revolutionaries" as you put it can't change society is, however, patently false, and a lot of history is built around direct action bringing about change when civil reform routes were held back and suppressed. John Brown is a terrible example for you to use that tells me there's more about the American Civil War you need to catch up on. Basically, it would be very naive to think slavery would have been abolished peacefully or that it would have been a quick and easy process. That's straight out of the Lost Causer's book trying to make the North look like an aggressor. Take it from a Southerner -- there was no way in HELL plantation owners were going to give up their slaves simply by telling them it's wrong. The Civil War ENDED with the formal abolition of slavery - it literally took a violent act for people to bring about change because of the incomprehensible resistance to the civil route.
I'll give you a better case study in the civil rights movements of the 60s: the NAACP had been around since 1909; their approach was to civilly work within the system and rely on the decency of white lawmakers and politicians to get things done. Since the majority of those people had no decency, every trick in the book was put against them to ensure that any social progress tried by the NAACP was at an absolute snailpace, and could easily be pushed back. It took groups like the SCLC, SNCC and the multitudes of brave individuals to rebel against the status quo, open their mouths and occupy whites-only areas to force the system to listen to them. Make no mistake, it got ugly. Pro-segregation news outlasts absolutely dropped the "uncivil rioters" label on the protesters along with many other more disgusting ones, but then...wow! Things actually start to happen! Segregation ends! Interracial marriage is legal! No more "literacy tests" specifically aimed to prevent African-Americans from voting! It's not cool to say the N word anymore! All these things that should have happened a long time ago if the people in charge were willing to listen, but they gave no other choice. So yeah, revolutions can work, riots can work (they're even working today!), being rude can work, if the peaceful options have been exhausted.
And in our case, they have. Adorno, for example, hasn't actually learned anything, nor is he actually "receptive to ideas which are foreign to his understanding." He's been using a very boring tactic in which he sounds like the open-minded civil one just 'trying to learn', but the "questions" he gives are actually statements of his own beliefs in disguise in attempt to discredit his opponents. It's a common strategy used by people to sneak in without being immediately detected, find cracks and then start attacking that crack in some kind of "gotcha!" moment in which they declare that X now has no merit. I've seen it in discussions of racial issues, sexuality, religion, and here we've got transphobia. The very least that's warranted is him getting called an *******. I'm sure his ego is strong enough to handle it. Right?
I'm so sick of this. Every ****ing den of sheltered right-wing nerds, it's always the same.
Conversations like these should never be happening. The existence and right to identity of millions of people shouldn't be something that has to be explained, debated and justified. And this kind of behavior definitely shouldn't be condoned by any mod team.
If only you people ****ing knew the kind of pain that this bull**** causes. But you have absolutely zero plans to even begin to understand because it doesn't affect you, it doesn't affect your monolithic group of friends, it's out of sight and out of mind. That very fact alone should mean that you have nothing to lose by not being a transphobic bigot, but isn't human behavior fascinatingly chaotic?
I'm just gonna put this out here - at the end of the day, it doesn't matter what you think about gender or sex.
It doesn't matter if it doesn't make sense to you.
It doesn't matter if you think people are wrong.
What matters is there are living people who want nothing more than to spend the short time we all have on this Earth, beautiful as it is cruel, in some level of comfort with their own existence. Instead of actually having the basic empathetic skills to allow them this, everything including the kitchen sink is thrown at them to discredit the very concept as a whole and label them all freaks, and y'all have absolutely contributed to this. All of you are subjected to the same damn mortal life and denying a group the right to peacefully enjoy theirs is how you decide to spend it?
You should all be ashamed of yourselves.
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It's funny because when I said the modern internet was a cesspit I wasn't thinking of any particular ideology, I was thinking more about people making baseless assumptions and leaping headlong into a vitriol-laced fight over the smallest of provocations. Thank you for an excellent illustration of why I maintain that particular view.
Abraxium
**** outta here with that feelgood bull****, we stay toxic #ganggang
You are comparing political change by revolution or reform to popular change. The latter does not disappear overnight, you will have to convince the populace that you, the government, acts and makes laws from your set of policies and values. If the US government were to be overthrown tomorrow, following the current protests, changes would be made in the country's judicial system to root out racist practice, but the prejudice and mindsets of its people, many in positions that may affect a demographics living standards or even life, still remain. They might very well act from their values, understanding and prejudice. While it is true that governments can instill a sense of authority and perceived legitimacy to previously mentioned views, see for example in 2016-17 when there were attacks on minorities because "Trump is in office and now it's ok to be openly racist", a population and their ideas will outlive most governments, unless you're Kim Jong-un
Honey, you may have caught up to the discussion at hand, but your dataset is missing well over a literal decade of context.
PS: Keep the Neo-Catholics, but you can pry my Attack Helicopter copypastas from my cold, dead hard drive.
What the ****.
I'm actually left wing (member of a socialist party) and support policies that protect the rights of transgender/-sexual people.
Thought I could discuss the issue from a linguistic approach, but I'm just a dumb, insensitive prick. That's clear (no irony).
I certainly didn't mean to be a "Dunning-Krueger [sic] ******* [who] tries to explain away their right of existence", and don't see that in my ramblings.
Someone here needs an attitude adjustment. Seriously.
I'm sorry, I goofed that one
And don't worry, not only is the thread now thoroughly derailed and super tense, I'm sure pretty much everyone has had the same take on my argument, I can guess where it's going, unless you have something new to add? Anyways, I've said what I had to say and I'm glad I wasn't impaled for doing so, you're pretty cool folks you, Pixel and Evelyn. I've misjudged you. I was being unfair. Sorry about that too.
In totally unrelated news at home last night.
Most recent news: 400 black people having a block party. Some idiots begin doing donuts in the street with their cars around 12:30 AM this morning. One car strikes a person, then another. Ambulance arrives for those people and shooting starts. Apparently rival gangs were on the same turf and over 100 shots were fired. 3 people have died. Black Charlotte policeman expresses frustration, "Over 400 people in the street and not one damn witness." Translation: They know who did the shooting but are afraid to say.
Sad black woman almost broke my heart. With tears in her eyes she said, "Black lives don't seem to matter to other blacks."
Most recent news: 400 black people having a block party. Some idiots begin doing donuts in the street with their cars around 12:30 AM this morning. One car strikes a person, then another. Ambulance arrives for those people and shooting starts. Apparently rival gangs were on the same turf and over 100 shots were fired. 3 people have died. Black Charlotte policeman expresses frustration, "Over 400 people in the street and not one damn witness." Translation: They know who did the shooting but are afraid to say.
Sad black woman almost broke my heart. With tears in her eyes she said, "Black lives don't seem to matter to other blacks."
