What do you think about population?

Should population be a thing?

  • Yes

    Votes: 126 76.4%
  • No

    Votes: 24 14.5%
  • Have no idea

    Votes: 15 9.1%

  • Total voters
    165

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Uh... what?

First of all, I guess you're unfamiliar with tiny franchises like Sins of the Solar Empire, or anything from Parado- uh. Wait...

What is the SECOND game in my list again? Oh...their most popular series. So long. If you cannot be bothered to read more than 10 words into my post and still try to rip it apart then its clear you are only trolling. Hell you couldnt even get the ending right. The term 4x came FROM Masters of Orion.

"Emrich in a September 1993 Computer Gaming World preview described Master of Orion as "the best that galactic conquest can offer", and summarized its type of gameplay as "4X", meaning "eXplore, eXpand, eXploit, eXterminate".


Its no different than the MMORPG argument. The term was created by Richard Garriott for Ultima Online. That makes IT the first MMORPG. Does not matter that there were online RPGs that allowed for many players like Mazewar, Neverw
 
Surely those that dont want it in the base game have the right to not want it also. ?

And once again I point out that only I am pointing out that everyone can have what they want which proves I am not "shaming" those on the other side. One doest not provide a solution to get someone what they want if they are just attacking someone...a mod that adds this gives those that want a game very different from what everyone else wants will solve this. Altering the very game itself only serves a tiny portion of the player-base. This change is so drastic, not even mods attempted to bring it, that is how out of place it is in M&B. If that doesnt tell you something, nothing will.
There's separate thread for mods discussion.
We discuss the base game and how it can be improved (or in the case if one think there's no need of improvement in that direction, they have the voice as well).

Some of us want to experience the longer game, with offspring mechanic (which already IS included in the game) to make sense. If the game's over until our children become of age, then what the point? Hence why some of us want to have some means to prevent constant warfare while still having things to do.

It's not like you can't fight during the peace-time at all.
But yes. we understand. You oppose complexity and want to hack and slash every minute. Yes. Understandable. We get it. We respect it. Really. That's why I created the poll. You voiced your opinion well enough and articulated it in such a way, that we understand it. But some of us just don't share it. Clearly there's nothing tragic in this.
 
What is the SECOND game in my list again? Oh...their most popular series. So long. If you cannot be bothered to read more than 10 words into my post and still try to rip it apart then its clear you are only trolling.
The fact that you don't see the irony in your invoking an example of real-time-4x-strategy while insisting "4x are turn-based RTS" is clearly not something you realize?
Hell you couldnt even get the ending right. The term 4x came FROM Masters of Orion.
You do realize a type of game can exist before the label currently in use came into being? Again, look at the list linked, look at the dates. The term may have been coined in relationship to MoO, but those type of games existed long before.

You're about as right here as you are in the other thread.. and I think I might as well stop the interaction, if only for the sake of moderators' sanity.
 
But yes. we understand. You oppose complexity and want to hack and slash every minute. Yes. Understandable. We get it. We respect it. Really. That's why I created the poll. You voiced your opinion well enough and articulated it in such a way, that we understand it. But some of us just don't share it. Clearly there's nothing tragic in this.

Funny how you do not do this for those that support your opinion to change the base game and force it onto everyone even those that dont want it. I will be sure to put you on the list of those that want to ruin the game for a subset group of people instead of ensuring a great experience for everyone on the base game that will work with the modding community to give everyone in their niche what they need to suit the game to meet their needs.

Its cool, I understand. Some work for the community as a whole. Some want to break it apart into tiny groups work against each other because you like boring gameplay and want to force it on everyone. I understand. I do this often myself. In fact, I am trying to get a group of people to turn Red Dead Redemption 3 into a motion capture 1v1 combat game by calling those that dont like it "people that dont like deep complex combat and only like twitch "shooting" combat". Nothing like getting into a game in one catagory and try to make it the opposite. Fun times. Shows I have the high ground by liking other types of games than the one im currently playing.?
 
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Funny how you do not do this for those that support your opinion to change the base game and force it onto everyone even those that dont want it.
Umm... what? I haven't met any hostility before you in either of group so far. There were those who like the idea and those who don't. There's nothing wrong with that. But it's only you who attack people because they don't share your point of view. That's why I told you that yes, we got your point of view, no need for repeating yourself over and over again.


I will be sure to put you on the list of those that want to ruin the game for a subset group of people instead of ensuring a great experience for everyone on the base game that will work with the modding community to give everyone in their niche what they need to suit the game to meet their needs.
That's ridiculous. Your claim that I am one of the people who want to ruin the game, based on the simple suggestion that you don't like shows only that you're trolling... Or just are not capable of civilized discussion without insulting each other.

Some want to break it apart into tiny groups work against each other because you like boring gameplay and want to force it on everyone. I understand. I do this often myself. In fact, I am trying to get a group of people to turn Red Dead Redemption 3 into a motion capture 1v1 combat game by calling those that dont like it "people that dont like deep complex combat and only like twitch "shooting" combat". Nothing like getting into a game in one catagory and try to make it the opposite. Fun times. Shows I have the high ground by liking other types of games than the one im currently playing.?
There's no point in continuing to argue with you, just because you'll just throw another insane accusation instead of just being critical. The fact that there are children who you suppose to raise and play with them once your character dies shows that devs clearly plan(ed) for this game to have playthrough span multi-generations. But as the things are now, it makes no sense. Again. I respect anyone who wants this game to just be hack and slash. There were posters before that articulated why they oppose the idea clearly enough without blaming anyone or accusing anyone into crimes against TW and M&B.

I feel like there's no point in arguing with such a hostile individual. So, please, let's finish it.
 
P.S. sorry for my English. It's not my native language and sometimes when I type fast I make mistakes. I'm multitasking right now, so it's what it is.
 
I think there are multiple issues with current implementation contributing toward the overall "experience."

The "kingdom AI" has no real goals in its warfare. It'll try to take over as much as possible, but it's done in a "throw current factional strength at it and ignore everything else" way. Factions/Kingdoms SHOULD require some kind of "war goal" on a more detailed level than "eradicate them before they eradicate us."

TW could easily pilfer basic implementation guidelines from Paradox titles. Start with tagging settlements with "core faction" for each of them. Then, whenever the war declaration code runs, check if any "factional core" settlement is in enemy hands - if so, give it a much greater weight than just declaring a war on some faction half a map away because their current strength is lower. Consider border continuity before going off for some distant target that won't be successfully defended anyway (and if will be defended, it is at the expense of factional territory elsewhere). Most importantly, make war declarations based on overall factional lords' current priorities and, to a lesser degree, personality traits. If half the kingdom consists of lords running around getting fresh recruits, with half the villages raided and pillaged, the king should have serious problems getting the support (both political and in practical terms) needed to declare a war on somebody. When a lord can reply with "I ain't got no troops!" to war summons, and it's a genuine grievance, why declare a war in the first place?

The focus should be twofold - maintaining factional "core" territory in own hands (and preferably in unpillaged state), and expansion as a secondary goal. I'd also add to this that most factional leaders SHOULD concern themselves with prosperity of the lands they rule over, and keep in mind the need to allow them to recover, with limited if any warfare, from prolonged conflicts. They'll get war declared on them by others, less affected, frequently enough anyway.

And the whole goal of a war declaration should be something specific. Mostly something along the line of "we need to take this town," or "we need to retake OUR castle that those bastards stole from us." Then you can add lord-to-lord relationship and personality traits to it. So that capaign to expand the faction to a new town might be faster joined by honorable lords, whereas greedy ones who see no chance in the ownership falling into their hands do some raiding instead. So that a clan with poor relatioship with the previous owner of that castle the liege is mobilizing to retake (something the game would need to track) is that less likely to contribute to the army doing the retaking. On top of any trait-driven inherent predisposition or dislike for warfare in general.

Then the internal conflicts between the lords actually start to matter (and not just in a player-AI setup), and personality traits come to life.

We don't have even basic lord-to-lord relationship implementation yet, so hopefully it's something that's coming, but individual lords should also react (in a "+/- relationship with liege" way) to demands that go against their personal priorities. Somebody trying to raise an army and rebuild their devastated villages should not look kindly on Ravangad-type "leader" declaring meaningless wars left and right, though they might contribute toward strictly defensive actions. Lords participation in "armies" should be driven by this kind of "personal" priorities, so that while they may help maintain soverency of their factional territory, a faction with multiple lords still recovering from past conflicts should have limited, if any, offensive capability operating outside of their territory - something the ruler, and factional counsel, should be able to determine BEFORE making a war declaration.

Might help if there's more granularity to diplomacy than just "war" and "peace." Just because there's a truce it doesn't mean that lords can't raid (hopefully DISTANT) villages of the opposing faction, or participate in small-scale skirmishers with their peers from the "other" side. It's certainly far more "historical" than current "whoops, here's the truce, stop fighting lads" situation we have, and would also mean plenty of opportunities for non-bandit engagements for player even during the luls in open warfare.

As an example, we could have four "diplomatic" states: Peace, Truce, Tension, War (feel free to label them more appropriately, more focused on writing down the ideas bouncing in my head right now than to find the right labels :wink: ).

Peace is what it is - everybody behaves, nobody attacks anyone, and, aside from starting few days, probably something rather rare for factions sharing borders.

Truce would be a period of "official" non-combat - neither caravans nor villagers get attacked, but lords may still butt heads in open engagements because of what Sir Wrong Side said about our Liege (at least that's my official story and I'm sticking with it!). Basically no territory flips or raiding, but very much lord-on-lord combat for parties not doing anything much at the time they meet. Truce should have strict time limits, and should occur, rather than Peace outright, if there are any remaining grievances (they have OUR castle/town!), or as a direct selection in terms of diplomacy calculations (in two weeks their other enemy should bleed them enough so we can take what's ours, by Neretzes!). In case of no persistent hostilities, should slowly degrade into peace (and be formalized as such when the "aggression" counter goes low enough, or other conditions make it preferable earlier).

Tensions would be a period of "unofficial" warfare - caravans get attacked, villagers harrassed, villages raided, but no settlement ownership change. Might even see armies gathering to curb down the aggression of the enemy obviously on the wrong side of Justice of the conflict, and large scale battles as an expression of weaponized shows of dominance. Pretty much an escalation from "Truce" with enough fighting between lords of each side. There also SHOULD be a way for a factional ruler to attempt to keep this escalation from happening - either making grievance payments ("your lord attacked out lord, gib one million dolla- ducats!"), some temporary policies in effect ("attack those sods, lose your fief, or at least have to cover the expenses of diplomacy that follows"), or, dare I say, starting up feasts and tourneys to keep the troublemakers occupied (make the butter flow!)

Finally War itself - a righteous conflict indubtibly sanctioned by the Heavens (or applicable religious concept) themselves to rid the world of those filthy *insert faction name here*. Or simply to take back something that is rightfully ours, historical evidence possibly notwithstanding. You know how it goes - everybody has a bad time aside from the scavengers and the player*, as it should be, and it's something officially declared by the faction leader (preferably with approval of their council).

*Player having good time not guaranteed.

Um. I probably should stop at this point. Hopefully it's resonably clear enough what I'm trying to present.

Adding population mechanics making recruitment more in line with state of factional settlements, rather than be something mostly indifferent to it, could work much better with all of that in place, precisely because it wouldn't just affect the outcome of conflicts, but also dictate their frequency as part of the war declaration calculations.

P.S. sorry for my English. It's not my native language and sometimes when I type fast I make mistakes. I'm multitasking right now, so it's what it is.
Better than a native's, at least in the judgement of somebody with painful exposure to the results of the American public school system...
 
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* Constant wars *

Whenever I find a strange situation arising in games, I always ask "what actually happened in history". Yes, there were long wars but rarely did wars happen constantly after each other. There was a time of rebuilding (peace is rebuilding for the next war) .Some say this rebuilding is TOO BORING to have in a game .. yes ? .. no ?, upgrading troops isn't boring. But usually after a war, there were social consequences at home. - For losers - People angry / protest at the death of their men folk - Drop in moral - Respect of leaders collapse ( inability to recruit new troops). For the winners, they still had military costs and reduction of farm output because of farmer levy troops.

So .. if we do have populations, times of peace between kingdoms would be a time of possible social wars ? Surely this is the time for espionage ? Those wanders in your tavern might be spies from your former enemy ? They might be talking to village heads stirring up trouble (peasant revolts) ?

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I guess I miscommunicated somehow but that's actually my problem with it.
Gotcha. I think part of the reason recruitment costs are so low is to make losing your whole party in battle more palatable. Otherwise players would be even more risk averse and treat their troops as more indispensable than they already do. The game is at its best when you can feel good about trading your troops for value IMO.
Even suggested that recruitment be tied to obtaining permission from a settlement's lord to encourage faster utility from relation increase with notables (and address a few other issues that current implementation was struggling with).
That could be an interesting way of doing it. Sounds similar to how VC's system worked.
Since nobles respawn with high-tier units capable to creaming most looter, if not all bandit groups are not a threat to them (thank you, complaining Reddit dweebs!).
Npcs don't actually spawn with that many high tier troops. Basically none of the 10-15 troops they spawn with are tier 5 or 6, and usually only a couple are tier 4. It's mostly insignificant considering the rest of their parties will be watered down with recruits initially. I don't think keeping lords trapped in a perpetual cycle of getting captured by bandits is the right way to deal with their aggressiveness. And it's not just about getting straight up captured, either. When their parties are too small/weak they constantly flee from bandits and have trouble reaching their destinations or accomplishing anything else. The AI really only has three modes of movement: 'flee,' 'chase,' and 'travel to location.' Programming pathfinding behavior that would allow them to maneuver around enemies is not trivial, and might not even be feasible cpu-wise with so many entities on the map.
(which themselves are so rudimentary implemented they are yet another disjoined element that just serves one purpose as xp pinatas, because good luck finding even that mythical "villagers vs looters" fight, much less getting to it before it is auto-resolved...)
Honestly, I disagree that the intended purpose of looters is to grind experience. They're just an early game mechanic to gain a head of steam by providing skill gains, money, renown, and a bit of troop xp before you move on to the next stage. Once you're at the mercenary or vassal level, there are plenty of weak lords running around for your recruits to cut their teeth on. I barely fight looters at all anymore and I feel like it speeds up the game flow a ton. Players tend to overestimate what kind of troop quality is needed to easily defeat the lesser vassals. That's not to say you can't pop a looter party that you happen to cross paths with from time to time though.
Honestly, I'd expect at least some recognition by the AI that the fief they are raiding (or ignoring being raided) are THE source of logistical backing of their war efforts, even if not right now than potentially quite soon.

Quick anecdote from my current (well, set aside because I've got to the point where I pick Bannerlord up, play a few minutes, then realize the futility of it and go do something else) playthrough. I was derping around getting new batch of Battanian and Sturgian recruits for my "independent" faction currently at war only with Western Empire battered to one town and castle far away enough I don't effective have to worry about any hostile incursions. I saw Raganvad's "respawn" party, already with 40+ recruits, heading toward Rodobas while Varcheg was under siege by Northern Empire. Went there first because those recruits were mine, by Jove. When I started the trek to another village, Varcheg got captured. Ragamuffin kept on his way toward Rodobas (Olek's fief before the flip, IIRC), then proceeded to raid the village.

I mean... OK. It's Raganvad. But, dude, you didn't even wait for Varcheg to change the livery on banners around the town before going on your merry way to destroy the lives of what just a moment ago were your own subjects, and probably would be your subjects again if you weren't such an utter tool when it comes to war strategy.

Lords, in general, pay no attention to base culture of villages (and they damn well should, at least for some character traits!) when it comes to raiding. They don't pay attention to anything outside of current ownership, which also means that, when you as a player finally get a fief awarded, it's probably going to be a useless ruin.

I'm not expecting neural network level behavior from Taleworlds, but they could at least hard-code raiding preference toward more distant targets, so recently captured settlements don't constantly flip-flop simply because there's no way to keep decent garrizon in them, and but a stop on "lol, silly former peasant of mine, you're now enemy property, gib lewt" behavior.
Lol, you do whatcha gotta do in war I guess. The TargetScore calculation function is actually pretty complex, and has been improved upon quite a bit since launch. You can get the gist of what's happening from this comment, or you can take a peek at the DefaultTargetScoreCalculatingModel class if you want to try to unpack everything yourself. It doesn't account for base culture obviously, but it's something that I think they'll continue to work on as development progresses. There's always room for improvement.

Cultural unity wasn't as much of a thing back then anyway as far as I'm aware, and it's not like kings used to treat their peasant subjects with dignity and fairness after all.
Saw it done several times in 1.4.1 by independent lord party just visiting "raided" village and getting the + Recruits message over them, so don't know if this was just fixed in latest patches, doesn't work as it should, or isn't implemented.
Might be a rare bug then. I haven't found where in the code to check to see exactly what's going on, but after some testing I'm certain that npcs don't visit burned out villages under normal circumstances. If you see it happen again though, I'd make a save and upload it into a bug report.
 
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1. Name a time when there were viking "refugees" during their 400+ years of invading the rest of Europe.
2. Name a time when there were British "refugees" in Europe during their 1300+ years of wars with France and other parts of Europe.
3. Why are you using Rome as an example when Rome is one of the most unique cities in history...next to no other European power allowed the places they conquered to come settle in their city and even grant many of them citizen status. Even the cities founding was very unique in history.

1. The second Mongol invasion of the Kievan Rus, with so many cities sacked that it sent an influx of refugees into a little known settlement named Moscow that no one has ever heard of since.

2. The appearance of Englishmen among the Varangian Guard after the Norman conquest of England in 1066.

3. There is nothing unique about Rome offering people sanctuary in exchange for their service or subjugation. Roman citizenship is certainly specific to Rome (duh) but another case would be King Bela's offer of asylum to the Cumans.
 
I think there are multiple issues with current implementation contributing toward the overall "experience."

The "kingdom AI" has no real goals in its warfare. It'll try to take over as much as possible, but it's done in a "throw current factional strength at it and ignore everything else" way. Factions/Kingdoms SHOULD require some kind of "war goal" on a more detailed level than "eradicate them before they eradicate us."

This. This is the most important thing. That's what breaks immersion and gives everything such flavor of total randomness. And you're right, devs should probably look at other titles for direction and there's no shame in that. Regarding the traits, I'm still amazed how deep the traits system is in Crusader Kings, yet they work so much better and all the NPCs feel alive. What do we have here, 8 traits?

Um. I probably should stop at this point. Hopefully it's resonably clear enough what I'm trying to present.

Adding population mechanics making recruitment more in line with state of factional settlements, rather than be something mostly indifferent to it, could work much better with all of that in place, precisely because it wouldn't just affect the outcome of conflicts, but also dictate their frequency as part of the war declaration calculations.

Better than a native's, at least in the judgement of somebody with painful exposure to the results of the American public school system...
No you have interesting points, was joy to read.

1. The second Mongol invasion of the Kievan Rus, with so many cities sacked that it sent an influx of refugees into a little known settlement named Moscow that no one has ever heard of since.

2. The appearance of Englishmen among the Varangian Guard after the Norman conquest of England in 1066.

3. There is nothing unique about Rome offering people sanctuary in exchange for their service or subjugation. Roman citizenship is certainly specific to Rome (duh) but another case would be King Bela's offer of asylum to the Cumans.
Also David IV of Georgia let 40 000 Kivchaghs (as we call them, Kipchaks as known in western Europe) to settle in Georgia. They helped greatly in 1121 against Turks in Didgori battle (not all 40 000 were warriors, it's a total number with women and children of course, and Georgians were still outnumbered, but anyway). But he made a wise move not to let them all settle in one place, to exclude the chance of separatism later and he had let them be assimilated in Georgian population.
 
You have valid point but I think it can be balanced with some thought put in it. It would be just as hard for player to recruit but there also must be the way for player to train the troops without risking by making them fight looters. Well polished barracks system could do the trick.

Thought put in it is exactly the thing that the game in general misses, and that in every single feature.

The "trick" could also just be a choice of whom to take with you in battle. Noone would take his recruits into battle into the first line, he rather would use them only as an ultima ratio. Thus a choice of main and reserve force would help a lot with that, along with a logical way of training your troops apart from battles (as normal soldiers would do when being in the field and having time...).
 
Thought put in it is exactly the thing that the game in general misses, and that in every single feature.

The "trick" could also just be a choice of whom to take with you in battle. Noone would take his recruits into battle into the first line, he rather would use them only as an ultima ratio. Thus a choice of main and reserve force would help a lot with that, along with a logical way of training your troops apart from battles (as normal soldiers would do when being in the field and having time...).
Totally agree
 
1. The second Mongol invasion of the Kievan Rus, with so many cities sacked that it sent an influx of refugees into a little known settlement named Moscow that no one has ever heard of since.

"In 1156, Knjaz Yury Dolgoruky fortified the town with a timber fence and a moat. In the course of the Mongol invasion of Rus, the Mongols under Batu Khan burned the city to the ground and killed its inhabitants"

So they destroyed a city that did not exist and killed the inhabitants of those that fled there after the invasion? Oh snap...so long. Moscow was a city before the Rus ever left their Viking homeland with evidence in not only the iron age, but the Neolithic period...because its a natural place to dwell in the area.

Now, if you want to try to then claim that the NAME Moscow did not come about until after the mongol invasion caused people to migrate..." The first known reference[which?] to Moscow dates from 1147 as a meeting place of Yuri Dolgoruky and Sviatoslav Olgovich. At the time it was a minor town on the western border of Vladimir-Suzdal Principality. The chronicle says, "Come, my brother, to Moskov" (Original - Приди ко мне, брате, во Москов)[42] "

Named changed to Moscow in 1147 or earlier since its the first mention written, mongol invasion and destruction of Moscow was in 1156. After. Not before. Anyone moving there after is just resettling their territory.

2. The appearance of Englishmen among the Varangian Guard after the Norman conquest of England in 1066.

The Varangian Guard were HIRED TROOPS...not REFUGEES. You did a preliminary search via google and quickly named what came up without actually reading.

" The Varangian Guard was known for being primarily composed of recruits from northern Europe, including Norsemen from Scandinavia and Anglo-Saxons from England."

3. There is nothing unique about Rome offering people sanctuary in exchange for their service or subjugation. Roman citizenship is certainly specific to Rome (duh) but another case would be King Bela's offer of asylum to the Cumans.

Well thankfully I did not say sanctuary but CITIZENSHIP and all the things that came with it which is prestige and a higher position than the POOR OF ROME aka plebs. That means placing them above the bulk of their own people. Also, King Bela IV was king of the CUMANS before king of Hungry so you didnt even get that right...alos, the cumans were not even conquered or taken over thus making this example wrong on all accounts.

King of Cumans in 1233, King of Hungary in 1235.

Now then, If you are going to "refute" what I post, post something true...what is the point of blatantly lying? Why do you have such a deep need to defend a thing if its clearly wrong? It OK to like or want a thing without falsehoods...
 
You honestly need to stop embarrassing yourself. It wouldn't be so bad if you were just wrong about stuff, I mean I get things wrong a lot, but the fact that you're so smug and condescending about it is just insufferable. Your other posts are fine, but when you try to talk about history it's just cringeworthy.
 
"In 1156, Knjaz Yury Dolgoruky fortified the town with a timber fence and a moat. In the course of the Mongol invasion of Rus, the Mongols under Batu Khan burned the city to the ground and killed its inhabitants"

So they destroyed a city that did not exist and killed the inhabitants of those that fled there after the invasion? Oh snap...so long. Moscow was a city before the Rus ever left their Viking homeland with evidence in not only the iron age, but the Neolithic period...because its a natural place to dwell in the area.

Now, if you want to try to then claim that the NAME Moscow did not come about until after the mongol invasion caused people to migrate..." The first known reference[which?] to Moscow dates from 1147 as a meeting place of Yuri Dolgoruky and Sviatoslav Olgovich. At the time it was a minor town on the western border of Vladimir-Suzdal Principality. The chronicle says, "Come, my brother, to Moskov" (Original - Приди ко мне, брате, во Москов)[42] "

Named changed to Moscow in 1147 or earlier since its the first mention written, mongol invasion and destruction of Moscow was in 1156. After. Not before. Anyone moving there after is just resettling their territory.

Uh, you're parsing that bit from Wikipedia wrong; the second Mongol invasion of Russian happened in 1238. Moscow was sacked but after the Mongols had gone, refugees from other cities started to come to Moscow.

The second part of my sentence was an obvious joke.

The Varangian Guard were HIRED TROOPS...not REFUGEES. You did a preliminary search via google and quickly named what came up without actually reading.

" The Varangian Guard was known for being primarily composed of recruits from northern Europe, including Norsemen from Scandinavia and Anglo-Saxons from England."

I knew of the Anglo-Varangians from well before; it was just the first example I could think of English people fleeing turmoil at home. That they were hired troops has no bearing on this, especially in the context of this thread. Since, you know, it came up as a reason to have a constant flow of recruitable troops.

Also, if you're going to accuse me of skimming Wikipedia, it looks dumb when you're the one linking Wikipedia at people.

Well thankfully I did not say sanctuary but CITIZENSHIP and all the things that came with it which is prestige and a higher position than the POOR OF ROME aka plebs. That means placing them above the bulk of their own people. Also, King Bela IV was king of the CUMANS before king of Hungry so you didnt even get that right...alos, the cumans were not even conquered or taken over thus making this example wrong on all accounts.

King of Cumans in 1233, King of Hungary in 1235.

Now then, If you are going to "refute" what I post, post something true...what is the point of blatantly lying? Why do you have such a deep need to defend a thing if its clearly wrong? It OK to like or want a thing without falsehoods...

Are you seriously denying that Cumans fled into Hungary after being defeated by the Mongols? Because that part is literally on the very page you linked, had you bothered to read further:
Fleeing the Mongols, at least 40,000 Cumans approached the eastern borders of the Kingdom of Hungary and demanded admission in 1239.[52][53] Béla only agreed to give them shelter after their leader, Köten, promised to convert together with his people to Christianity, and to fight against the Mongols.[52][54][55] However, the settlement of masses of nomadic Cumans in the plains along the Tisza River gave rise to many conflicts between them and the local villagers.[52] Béla, who needed the Cumans' military support, rarely punished them for their robberies, rapes and other misdeeds.[52][56] His Hungarian subjects thought that he was biased in the Cumans' favor, thus "enmity emerged between the people and the king",[57] according to Roger of Torre Maggiore.[58]
 
Uh, you're parsing that bit from Wikipedia wrong; the second Mongol invasion of Russian happened in 1238. Moscow was sacked but after the Mongols had gone, refugees from other cities started to come to Moscow.

1. The second Mongol invasion of the Kievan Rus, with so many cities sacked that it sent an influx of refugees into a little known settlement named Moscow that no one has ever heard of since.

So which is it. Mongols invaded and sacked many cities causing refugees to come and create Moscow or did Moscow already exist, get destroyed and people came BACK and repopulated?

Either one = you either being wrong, or using an example that does not even apply. And this is the case with all 3 of your examples. The argument is only one thing. Name a time when Vikings/Brits were REFUGEES going into other lands. "a person who flees to a foreign country or power to escape danger or persecution".

And no, using the Cumans as an example of Hungary being like Rome is not correct because the man that granted the Cumans SANCTUARY (Not citizenship thus wrong example anyway) LED THE CUMANS FIRST, to take HUNGARY. Clearly does not apply to Rome because ROME existed, and took over others, granting THEM what we are talking about. It does not apply.Try making an actual argument that holds up...clearly mine does since you cannot even come close to refuting it. I mean, try getting the BASICs right first, then move on to getting the actual details right first.

Also, if you're going to accuse me of skimming Wikipedia, it looks dumb when you're the one linking Wikipedia at people.

Because it only takes laymen level crap to prove you wrong. I save books and professors lessons for those that can provide an actual argument that holds water.
 
I think a population mechanic would be great, as long as it's implemented well. It would require the population to affect both the economy of an area as well as the number of political recruits there, so a factions economy and military strength depend on the state of their population.
 
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