To add to this, you are making a too big difference between singleplayer and multiplayer. They both don't even come close.Really? It was very common. The issue was mod designers couldn't really enforce outfits on player 'classes' in warband. Ergo lets say you played a zulu in anglo zulu war; nothing stopping you right clicking and taking off all the 'zulu' garb that made you look authentic and ending up as some naked blond white guy running around with spear and shield.
Full invasion and the lord of the rings mods had these issues because they combined various races under one flag. So in theory yes I could look like an authentic rohan warrior... but I could take those dwarf boots for +1 armour... and maybe that gondor helmet for +2... and those elven bracers give another +1.. and suddenly I look like I just flew threw a washing line...
I mean yeah I know it's mostly a cosmetic thing... and it's mostly for the benefit of Mods... Just in my minds eye I see two years down the time playing the Kingdom of Arda mod and being presented with a dozen factions each with a dozen authentic classes from each race... and it will be amazing..and when I jump into battle I will finally be a Gondor soldier amongst 200 other shiny silver soldiers trying to hold the outer walls of minas tirith
That's what makes me hold a token for the class system.
As for the balance... well let's see what happens. They are playing very coy with their new changes... you never know we might be in for a surprise. Let's hope for the best rather than assuming it's the worst
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Taleworlds needs to hold themselves accountable and admit that many key decisions regarding multiplayer have backfired.
- Thread starter EbdanianAdmiral
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Sorry i don't understand what you are saying here. What difference and what are they not close too? If you mean each other? Yeah absolutely...
No you are comparing classes in singleplayer and multiplayer. They are very much different. One is made for bots one is made for players. The singleplayer has dozen of individual classes that ensure variety in each faction. One faction in bannerlord unit roster in singleplayer has more variety then all the classes in multiplayer for each faction combined.
You are misunderstanding what the problem is with the class system. You could achieve the same amount of customization with 100's of classes like that one of warband. The problem is that we are neither presented with a choice of picking between an absurd example like an orc foot and a blonde elvish face, or presented with a wide variety of classes that would do the exact same but in another way. Instead we are given a class system that is neither of the two. It's low amount of classes and low amount of items to pick from.
Also full invasion kept its full customization by adding a few 100's of classes with each faction having its own subfactions added to that. This made a distinctive different roster where classes where different from eachother. I'm sure if it was not for the texture limit from the warband engine, this would have been expanded upon even further.
I was only speaking about multiplayer; I may have used rhetoric that sounded a little like that but apologies no i was trying to just make a MP point.
If you're talking multiplayer, kingdom of Arda wouldn't stick to this class system so limiting, pretty confident about it
Well they are planning to utilise the class system - I just presume they will have lots and lots of classes. I hang out on the discord chat for the mod and there's alot of ideas floating around as soon as they have the mod tools.
Sounds like personal choice to me, everyone gets what they want. If I want to be an elf mixed with orc I could, making my experience more fun. I can either play for fun and just pick something stupid, or I could pick the best possible options for my character at the expense of fashion. I dont care about someone fighting in uniform or not, some people do and thats great, go for it, you can easily do that without a class system, just pick the same gear. With the class system, YOUR needs are met, but mine are not. The warband class system framed it incredibly well. It gave you the choice to play how you wanted with certain limitations and some of those limitations could be stretched with weapon drops and pickups to give you an advantage.Really? It was very common. The issue was mod designers couldn't really enforce outfits on player 'classes' in warband. Ergo lets say you played a zulu in anglo zulu war; nothing stopping you right clicking and taking off all the 'zulu' garb that made you look authentic and ending up as some naked blond white guy running around with spear and shield.
Full invasion and the lord of the rings mods had these issues because they combined various races under one flag. So in theory yes I could look like an authentic rohan warrior... but I could take those dwarf boots for +1 armour... and maybe that gondor helmet for +2... and those elven bracers give another +1.. and suddenly I look like I just flew threw a washing line...
I mean yeah I know it's mostly a cosmetic thing... and it's mostly for the benefit of Mods... Just in my minds eye I see two years down the time playing the Kingdom of Arda mod and being presented with a dozen factions each with a dozen authentic classes from each race... and it will be amazing..and when I jump into battle I will finally be a Gondor soldier amongst 200 other shiny silver soldiers trying to hold the outer walls of minas tirith
That's what makes me hold a token for the class system.
As for the balance... well let's see what happens. They are playing very coy with their new changes... you never know we might be in for a surprise. Let's hope for the best rather than assuming it's the worst
No matter how the class system is changed, this wont happen. It cant give the same level of freedom as warband, and going to a system thats inferior to its predecessor seems stupid. Every single player I was on Discord with when they played the game for the first time said "Uhm wtf why cant I pick my own equipment?"
If people are too stupid to pick their own equipment, thats on them. Create a button saying Suggested setup and problem solved. Instead we're all being forced to play like storm troopers with zero identity.
The class system is simply a bad idea to force on people.
I wonder though if people are blaming the class system and making it like a scape goat for all their concerns with the game. Really does the method through which you choose your equipment matter that much to you?
Surely as long as the combat gets improved, servers get improved, game modes etc... AND assuming the class system gets revamped and improved. Does this really ruin the game for you? Imagine a world where everything but the class system was exactly how you wanted it; would the class system prevent you enjoying the game? Genuine question - not an incitement for fighting like I normally do
To me I really don't give a **** how I get my weapon, what weapon or anything; as long as that M&B combat works then I am going to have fun. So as far as I'm concerned improvements to combat parametres should be concerns 1, 2 & 3. Then we can worry about extras. In the end we will spend 90% of our playtime on mods anyway - so as long as the mechanical foundations are good; stuff like classes will sort themselves out.
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I wonder though if people are blaming the class system and making it like a scape goat for all their concerns with the game. Really does the method through which you choose your equipment matter that much to you?
Surely as long as the combat gets improved, servers get improved, game modes etc... AND assuming the class system gets revamped and improved. Does this really ruin the game for you? Imagine a world where everything but the class system was exactly how you wanted it; would the class system prevent you enjoying the game? Genuine question - not an incitement for fighting like I normally do
Yes it does matter. Quit asking questions you already know the answer to; you're just lending more credence to the idea that you can't read.
When people say "class system" theyre referring to the specific direction Taleworlds is taking the multiplayer. Arguably we should use a less ambiguous term because by some definitions warband had a class system as well, kind of.
The problem is how there are multiple archers, multiple cavalry etc per faction, with some of them being totally useless by design, and you are forced into specific role in a game where the number of potential builds is way higher than whatever the developers think is fun. For them to make this system work it would end up being basically just warband with a slightly different method for selecting gear, like you said.
But that's my point. You are honestly saying if the game was 99% perfect you still wouldn't play; just because of this one factor? Even if it was worked on, worked on and worked on and was in a much better shape? Ontop of literally everything else being perfect? Surely there must be *some* grey area for you?
Like I respect your position but surely there must be some leeway you would be willing to give ground on here?
Come on man - no need for that. We can debate about M&B and still be friends.
Ah but see Canton here has kind of proved my point. No matter how good everything was, no matter how much it was improved he would hate it just for the sake of hating it. You are absolutely right Warband has a class system which is partially why I get so annoyed at all the unspecific hate towards it sometimes. Surely there must be a way it can be developed and evolved enough in its current format that it will satisfy the majority of people who just wanted warband back?
Even the example you gave; i think is very possible. They are clearly moving to a position of adding more and more perks. We could very realistically be seeing a very very large pool of options built into the current system.
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Skirmish and the asymmetrical class design are secondary problems. In Warband, the community narrowed down Battle settings and balance changes over the span of several years. Over time, Skirmish will be replaced or altered significantly, and the asymmetrical design removed by the community in whatever mod or server starts running a popular "competitive" mode.
This is problematic, because it hurts new players looking to get into the competitive scene, but those parts of the game will reach a certain standard whether TW creates them or not. It's also possible that TW will accept the competitive mod and use it instead of Skirmish for official matchmaking.
Unlike classes, the community can't fix hard-coded elements of combat. Combat parameters only get so far by adjusting feints and movement when there are many other problems with the base game mechanics.
This is problematic, because it hurts new players looking to get into the competitive scene, but those parts of the game will reach a certain standard whether TW creates them or not. It's also possible that TW will accept the competitive mod and use it instead of Skirmish for official matchmaking.
Unlike classes, the community can't fix hard-coded elements of combat. Combat parameters only get so far by adjusting feints and movement when there are many other problems with the base game mechanics.
This needs to be my forum signature!!
I couldn't of said it better... and in fact have tried to say it better and failed many many times. Get the freaking fundamentals sorted; everything else will work itself out one way or another.
Of course they could, Native even comes shipped with a 'Force minimum armor' setting which always enforces the free or lowest cost armour. And any mod worth anything has troops set up with the base, free stuff. Meaning - no naked people if they don't wish so.
It's not just naked people though but more the consistency and this was a server setting as well. I'll admit it's not a huge issue but one I certainly noticed on many many mods.
I feel like there's more important parts to talk about though but everyone seems to want to talk about my uniformity fetish apparently
If they used NW as template for there mods people could enforce skins that you could't take off.
RCC_God
Knight
The Gk tdm people I know are super frustrated by the class system. The server had so many people who loved the variance they could have with the loadout system on top of the server mods which allowed more weapons, armor, voice lines, etc. the class system hurts the casual base that stays around. I’m sure the consensus is the same on the Mount and siege server or TG_arena as in Gk Tdm. Now to me combat and server issues are more important than the class system but Not by much
rektasaurus
Squire
@Zoonanay
Yeah, in nerdrage mode I threw a few insults your way regarding your skill at playing. All in good faith. The words were carefully selected.
@CdJrcxx
Language thing makes sense. It would be nice to know. It’s a really small detail but it adds to the ui feeling as rough as it is.
@Mardochaios
Yep. There is a disconnect it seems with (the very few people) in mp and those in this thread. I’m rooting so hard for this game I hope dev choices don’t fall victim to the more vocal forum warrior types. Or at least I hope they do a good job collating feedback.
@EbdanianAdmiral
Oh yeah all my 15 ten years of playing competitive mp video games means my insight means absolutely nothing because I don’t know about an obscure 1v1 server? Doesn’t make sense. Troll yourself.
@KSHMR
@AxiosXiphos
Captain mode is really fun, kshmr, should try it.
Basically, and again, it totally makes sense to lock mp ai units to the gear they have. My biggest issue is the idea that locking equipment to players would serve any purpose in balancing anything at all. Ai units should be locked to their equipment and have skill attributes that make sense but player characters are different.
When I come up against another player I want to know that we have equal attribute stats. That is balance. All equipment being available to players is balance. What is the fun of taking essentially a half-preleveled character from sp and shoehorning that into mp game modes? No. Player character (hero) sheets max level across all attributes and then non-player (troop) characters should have character sheets that make sense based on their loadout. And sheets adjustable with mods. That setup would make everyone happy and be a good game.
That leads into the class system. Selectable “classes” for ai (troop) units makes sense in captain mode. It doesn’t make sense for the player (hero) character or in skirmish mode.
This is a mount and blade game. If I’m leading archers in captain mode I should have the option of literally spawning in with a mount. It makes zero sense for someone to be upset that I can find a horse and mount it.... If in skirmish mode, we should have the option of selecting our own load out and come up with our own compositions and roles to win a 6v6 fight. Aesthetics can still be made consistent with factions while keeping armor values and attribute levels equal. So that it’s balanced. We should have the freedom to choose and get a matchup where one team chooses to go all mounted with heavy armor bows, and the other team chooses all infantry with no bows for instance. Is that an unbalanced matchup? Yes, and likely a situation TaleWorlds was looking to avoid. My main point is that is something they should not force on us in skirmish mode.
Let us choose the most optimal loadout and team composition we think works. That’s a huge part of the fun and strategy and right now we don’t have access to it.
Yeah, in nerdrage mode I threw a few insults your way regarding your skill at playing. All in good faith. The words were carefully selected.
@CdJrcxx
Language thing makes sense. It would be nice to know. It’s a really small detail but it adds to the ui feeling as rough as it is.
@Mardochaios
Yep. There is a disconnect it seems with (the very few people) in mp and those in this thread. I’m rooting so hard for this game I hope dev choices don’t fall victim to the more vocal forum warrior types. Or at least I hope they do a good job collating feedback.
@EbdanianAdmiral
Oh yeah all my 15 ten years of playing competitive mp video games means my insight means absolutely nothing because I don’t know about an obscure 1v1 server? Doesn’t make sense. Troll yourself.
@KSHMR
@AxiosXiphos
Captain mode is really fun, kshmr, should try it.
Basically, and again, it totally makes sense to lock mp ai units to the gear they have. My biggest issue is the idea that locking equipment to players would serve any purpose in balancing anything at all. Ai units should be locked to their equipment and have skill attributes that make sense but player characters are different.
When I come up against another player I want to know that we have equal attribute stats. That is balance. All equipment being available to players is balance. What is the fun of taking essentially a half-preleveled character from sp and shoehorning that into mp game modes? No. Player character (hero) sheets max level across all attributes and then non-player (troop) characters should have character sheets that make sense based on their loadout. And sheets adjustable with mods. That setup would make everyone happy and be a good game.
That leads into the class system. Selectable “classes” for ai (troop) units makes sense in captain mode. It doesn’t make sense for the player (hero) character or in skirmish mode.
This is a mount and blade game. If I’m leading archers in captain mode I should have the option of literally spawning in with a mount. It makes zero sense for someone to be upset that I can find a horse and mount it.... If in skirmish mode, we should have the option of selecting our own load out and come up with our own compositions and roles to win a 6v6 fight. Aesthetics can still be made consistent with factions while keeping armor values and attribute levels equal. So that it’s balanced. We should have the freedom to choose and get a matchup where one team chooses to go all mounted with heavy armor bows, and the other team chooses all infantry with no bows for instance. Is that an unbalanced matchup? Yes, and likely a situation TaleWorlds was looking to avoid. My main point is that is something they should not force on us in skirmish mode.
Let us choose the most optimal loadout and team composition we think works. That’s a huge part of the fun and strategy and right now we don’t have access to it.
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That is directly what im saying. The offer to duel me is on the table.
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