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I'm tired of peasants with pitchforks stopping my fully plated Knights charge
- Thread starter COOMER
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I agree to buff the heavy cavalry charge but the difficulties to obtain a heavy cavs should be massively increased. For example, there should be a rule that each knight has to come with 2 squires, which prevents the player from buildng a heavy cav only army.
I am experimenting with this mod today:
www.nexusmods.com
I'm combining it with collisions AI to see if it rounds out some of these issues without just making damage-sponge-tank-cheesy elite units.
Haven't played it long enough to really review it, but it certainly makes armor more meaningful which reduces that kind of issue.
Realistic Battle Mod
This mod makes combat more realistic and improves AI. Armor and damage is reworked according to experimental data and physics. Units try to survive. AI uses proper formations and new custom culturally
www.nexusmods.com
I'm combining it with collisions AI to see if it rounds out some of these issues without just making damage-sponge-tank-cheesy elite units.
Haven't played it long enough to really review it, but it certainly makes armor more meaningful which reduces that kind of issue.
Have you ever held a pitchfork? Because with a pitchfork you can stop a knight. In reality, a horse would not charge a man who holds a pitchfork or any spear kind of thing because they are not stupid, they're pretty much aware that charging into a pointy stick means death so they stop instead of charging.
However, you indeed can train your horse to do this but training a horse makes it more valuable and you can not risk your valuable mount in such a place. In game, you can charge into 20 looters as a single horsemen. In reality, if your horse is not properly trained, there's no way for him to charge and if it is trained, there is no way for you to led him to there because it is highly possible to get wounded in there. Cavalry in reality is very different than cavalry in movies or t.v shows. Cavalry charges always take place from weaker spot of infantry. If infantry hold their place and stay in line, cavalry can not defeat them.
So, in short, it is pretty normal for peasants to stop knights with pitchfork.
However, you indeed can train your horse to do this but training a horse makes it more valuable and you can not risk your valuable mount in such a place. In game, you can charge into 20 looters as a single horsemen. In reality, if your horse is not properly trained, there's no way for him to charge and if it is trained, there is no way for you to led him to there because it is highly possible to get wounded in there. Cavalry in reality is very different than cavalry in movies or t.v shows. Cavalry charges always take place from weaker spot of infantry. If infantry hold their place and stay in line, cavalry can not defeat them.
So, in short, it is pretty normal for peasants to stop knights with pitchfork.
Catskinner
Recruit
Because the farmers would break before the cavalry got to them...
I'm not going to be one of those people that pretends I understand melee combat dynamics like some expert. However, my line of reasoning is:
If you stopped a knight, on horseback, with a pitchfork you'd probably wind up on your butt too. Its not going to be pretty for the knight but that is a lot of impact to take on.
Mount and blade doesn't really have that kind of "impact" for either party, let alone the whole morale/nerve thing. It takes a lot more nerve to brace a pitchfork against a charging knight and hold your ground then it takes to be an armored knight and charge a peasant mob (Not saying that's trivial, but an armored person bearing down at you on horseback is a viscerally terrifying thing).
If you stopped a knight, on horseback, with a pitchfork you'd probably wind up on your butt too. Its not going to be pretty for the knight but that is a lot of impact to take on.
Mount and blade doesn't really have that kind of "impact" for either party, let alone the whole morale/nerve thing. It takes a lot more nerve to brace a pitchfork against a charging knight and hold your ground then it takes to be an armored knight and charge a peasant mob (Not saying that's trivial, but an armored person bearing down at you on horseback is a viscerally terrifying thing).
I'm going to be on the, yes team, of anyone with a pitchfork is going to stop a horse and knight.
If you were a knight, charging at some dude on horseback at lets say 30 mphs. And that dude has a long stuck with pointy metal at the end. I'm not saying the peasant is going to win exclusively. But that knight is charging straight to his death. I wanna be clear that, that peasant is going to be crushed by a half ton warhorse. But you as the rider are about to go flying off that beast too, and at 30 mphs.
To point it in none medieval terms. Would you charge at a guy while driving a motorcycle at 30 mphs, while he's got a pitchfork aimed at your face? I think not. Because even if he missed you but struck your tire. You're about to go flying.
(Would also like to mention, riders need to take more relatively fall damage in game)
If you were a knight, charging at some dude on horseback at lets say 30 mphs. And that dude has a long stuck with pointy metal at the end. I'm not saying the peasant is going to win exclusively. But that knight is charging straight to his death. I wanna be clear that, that peasant is going to be crushed by a half ton warhorse. But you as the rider are about to go flying off that beast too, and at 30 mphs.
To point it in none medieval terms. Would you charge at a guy while driving a motorcycle at 30 mphs, while he's got a pitchfork aimed at your face? I think not. Because even if he missed you but struck your tire. You're about to go flying.
(Would also like to mention, riders need to take more relatively fall damage in game)
Relgior
Recruit
if you have the balls to stay against hardened knight on hardened horse with a pitchfork you won the chuck norris medal.
if your horse run into it its dead hardened or not.
it sucks because we all want to run through looter lines like hot knive through butter.
its fun but not realistic
if your horse run into it its dead hardened or not.
it sucks because we all want to run through looter lines like hot knive through butter.
its fun but not realistic
Per OP's message, he was saying how can a peasant with a pitchfork stop a "knights charge". He didn't say why the lance loses to pitchwork, or why in a fight the knight loses to the peasant.
Its specially about charging against a pitchfork.
I think cavalry, and really movement in general needs to have momentum to it. You go from full gallop to 0 instantly, there is no carry over of force. Or when infantry charging into shieldwalls there is really no 'give'
Firstly od all in 1v1 knight wouldn't be so stupid to charge frontally at weapon that can reach him (yes pitchfork can reach him).
Secondly in case of many v many, knights wouldn't charge frontally if the could go around and attack from different sides.
Thirdly. Peasants with pitchfork mostly didn't had gut to stand in front of a charge.
Fourthly 99% of armors are vulnerable against piercing damage (pitchfork does that damage). No matter the armor charging horse and knight would be pierced by pitchfork (probably killing the bearer in the process). Even if horse would take all s damage himself knight in full armor would have a hard time going back on his feet after falling.
This is kind of realistic even if not all factors are included.
Secondly in case of many v many, knights wouldn't charge frontally if the could go around and attack from different sides.
Thirdly. Peasants with pitchfork mostly didn't had gut to stand in front of a charge.
Fourthly 99% of armors are vulnerable against piercing damage (pitchfork does that damage). No matter the armor charging horse and knight would be pierced by pitchfork (probably killing the bearer in the process). Even if horse would take all s damage himself knight in full armor would have a hard time going back on his feet after falling.
This is kind of realistic even if not all factors are included.
As others have said, the lack of impact & damage for both parties, as well as morale/fear/nerve, makes it hard to get this right in game. Its not just the physics of pitchfork versus knight, but also the psychology in the situation. I don't think we'll be able to perfect it, but I'd prefer a little more oompfh for both sides. Most mods I've seen thus far increase charge damage but don't increase fall damage, for example.
Also, this is unlikely to ever be modeled in game, but my understanding of a big danger for cavalry throughout history (any of you nerds wanna correct me, go for it) was your horse falling ON you if you both went down. If a horse lands on you, at best, you're staying down for a little bit and at worst you're smushed.
Right now when my horse gets taken out I do a 20foot dab and roll and then hop back up and slaughter like 5-6 archers.
I don't thinking about a 1v1 knight versus peasant really captures the missing dynamics, to be frank.
Also, this is unlikely to ever be modeled in game, but my understanding of a big danger for cavalry throughout history (any of you nerds wanna correct me, go for it) was your horse falling ON you if you both went down. If a horse lands on you, at best, you're staying down for a little bit and at worst you're smushed.
Right now when my horse gets taken out I do a 20foot dab and roll and then hop back up and slaughter like 5-6 archers.
I don't thinking about a 1v1 knight versus peasant really captures the missing dynamics, to be frank.
Earth Dragon
Sergeant
There is a key factor that is hard for the game to take into account of folks, and it's where you are gonna have to gift it some leniency:
Breaking formation.
The reason cavalry ran over peasants without problem is not because those pitchforks had not chance of unhorsing a knight, but because they don't stick around to bum rush the guy or two who was unhorsed. They'd scatter. They are far more concerned about their own lives.
The knight is also picking and choosing his shots. He isn't charging into the center of the formation (in most cirmcumstances. Wedge formations were real and designed to blow through a formation). He's skirting the outside and hitting with his lance, then as they scatter, running them down with hand weapons.
But this is why the game also needs to go back to allow no death looter auto-resolves. I honestly thought it was on purpose for training and to accurate simulate what we are talking about.
Even if peasant is hit by Lance there's still huge chance that pitchfork falling from dead peasant hand will tangle in horse legs and brake them or throw the horse of balance.
