Are spears and pikes ever going to be fixed?

[Boozbaz]

"Are spears and pikes EVER going to be fixed"

I very much want for it to be fixed and your suggestions would really improve its state right now.
But come on, using ever like the game's been out for an year in unnecessary.

Hit the nail on the head. The OP makes some good points but the way the thread title is phrased seems overly harsh.

 

[bm01]

Mount & Blade & maybe Pikes.

 

[ste636]

They learnt the lesson, let the modders solve the problem efficiently and GRATIS, it's a good trick, it always works and you are even backed up by swarms of fanbois always ready to get in action, I mean, who could blame a developer to leave it to the modders?
I just subscribed to a mod that mitigates spear issues...

 

[Nickname]

Agree with OP, but not only that.

5. Remove super long windup for spear attacks. No matter how spear is held in neutral, overarm or underarm, it's ready to strike. Should you press attack button - character should start a thrust immediately!
6. Especially in two-handed mode, spear is super fast and nimble weapon, thanks to leverage. You can easily thrust 2 times per second in different parts of opponent’s body, keeping them at distance. And leave one directional input (up or down) for extended powerful lunge.

 

[Hero_of_Ferelden]

2. Give spears a left and right overstab angle. Short spears held overarm are easily able to attack over a shield from multiple angles (and hit a lot harder than a sword would). A left and right overhead stab would go a long way in making them less useless.

It seems your gripe with spears mainly comes from your SP experience and is mostly down to ****ty AI. Adding additional stab directions wouldn't really affect the AI behaviour at all (they either block the attack or they don't, irregardless of attack direction).

 

[Hugo_Stiglitz]

I think spears can be fixed by decreasing the wind up time significantly so that it's much faster to strike. But there should be a bit of a delay before you can strike again or we might be able to just spam away spear strikes and perhaps stun lock our enemy so they cant counter attack.

Also look at increasing piercing damage(with melee weapons only) or looking at a higher chance of piercing heavy armor and giving piercing with MELEE weapons overall more of a noticeable impact that what I'm currently seeing in game. Heavens know ranged piercing doesn't need to be buffed.

 

[Azhael]

Agree with OP, but not only that.

5. Remove super long windup for spear attacks. No matter how spear is held in neutral, overarm or underarm, it's ready to strike. Should you press attack button - character should start a thrust immediately!
6. Especially in two-handed mode, spear is super fast and nimble weapon, thanks to leverage. You can easily thrust 2 times per second in different parts of opponent’s body, keeping them at distance. And leave one directional input (up or down) for extended powerful lunge.

Agree on that. Spears should be very fast to thrust and not so slow to recharge.

I think spears weren't so good in duels, thoguh. There's a video by Lindybeige showing that:

 

[Nickname]

I think spears weren't so good in duels, thoguh. There's a video by Lindybeige showing that:

In close combat, not in duels. That's why spearmen wear a sidearm. But the duel attempts on this video and conclusions from it is rubbish, because they intentionally avoided quick thrusts to the face. If they used them, they would have to raise their shields, covering their heads and losing sight for a second. And doing so, you have no idea where the next quick thrust will come from.

 

[Uesugi Kenshin]

It certainly is possible to achieve it. Bannerlord as an engine seems promising enough. I think the bottleneck is AI and animations but with enough time and effort Taleworlds can overcome both hurdles. If not in this game I expect brand new combat mechanics in M&B III if it is ever made.

 

[Stratigo]

Yep, M&B combat system actually limit a lot of actual weapon usage. Polearms in particular suffer a lot from this and lost tons of versatility, the way they are used now hardly represent reality.

Having the ability to change grip and stance would be a good step to address that. We already have a dedicated button for changing weapon mode, but it is so rarely used, aside from couching lance. Give us more things to do with X key, a lot of weapons can benefit from this. For example, one-handed spear can have 2 grip modes: the current Underarm mode with more reach and Overarm mode with less reach but more comfortable for close melee.

In fact most artworks depict spearmen fight in formation with overarm grip, since they can stab over the head of their allies and over the shields of enemies right at their face and you have more room to move your arm and spear.

And by Overarm, I mean actually holding the spear like you are going to throw it but thrust with it. However it might be conflicted with throwable spear. Arghggh.. see what I mean about the combat system limit?

It also may be artistic representations of people throwing their spears and not actual overhand thrusting. Since over hand thrusting it just purely physically worse than a better grip.

 

[zenDzee]

I don't think spears should be fixed. I use a spear and shield as my primary weapon all the time. In a siege, in a hideout, on the battle field. I can kill an NPC with a spear with one hit. Most people misunderstand how spears work, which makes them think that spears are weak. IRL you cannot do much damage by simply poking the enemy with a spear. The thrusting movement of the spear is too short hence the spear does not have enough momentum. You have to assist the thrusting movement with the movement of your body. One step forward during a strike greatly affects damage. The faster the movement - the greater the damage. So, in the game you will need high Athletics skill in order to deal serious damage. Athletics will also help you control the distance between you and the enemy. Controlling the distance is a first thing you should learn when learning martial arts. And controlling the distance is absolutely critical for the spear user.

 

[Nickname]

IRL you cannot do much damage by simply poking the enemy with a spear. The thrusting movement of the spear is too short hence the spear does not have enough momentum. You have to assist the thrusting movement with the movement of your body.

You mean enemy in good armor? Otherwise it's just complete bs. A sharp spear will pierce human body like butter, against a chainmail you will need a power thrust. But the face if usually unarmored



Do you honestly think such a thrust to the face/neck will not do much damage without body weight applied?

 

[zenDzee]

Do you honestly think such a thrust to the face/neck will not do much damage without body weight applied?

You can pierce human flesh with a spoon. Of course, I mean the enemy in armor, at least in some decent gambeson or chainmail

 

[Hndzm]

It also may be artistic representations of people throwing their spears and not actual overhand thrusting. Since over hand thrusting it just purely physically worse than a better grip.

Having done historical shieldwall reenactment, you're wrong. Firstly, most of the representations are of spears far too long to be thrown, and in periods where this wasn't really common practice regardless.

Secondly, the overhand grip allows for a level change, now while your fellow spearmen stab at the legs and feet of the enemy, you stab over and into their neck/face. There is plenty of leverage to kill someone, and you actually have more of an arc infront of you where the spear is dangerous with an overhand grip. You'll also need an overhand grip to effectively fight 2nd rank with kite shields, the tail of the shield of the man infront of and to your right will severely restrict your movements.

You can pierce human flesh with a spoon. Of course, I mean the enemy in armor, at least in some decent gambeson or chainmail

A spear can kill you through chainmail, a spear can kill you through plate armor even. Chainmail primarily stops slashing blows, and makes you a harder target to hit square, as you will glance off at bad angles even with a spear, but a direct hit will penetrate and potentially kill. The gambeson may save you from a spear if it's very thick and paired with chainmail to allow less of the spear to reach your body as fast, but spearheads are plenty long enough (usually, there are of course exceptions) to reach through these defenses with enough force to kill you.

For an example in Bannerlord, look at the Thin Fine Steel Hewing Spear. That could reach through and out your back, regardless of the armor.

 

[Cèsar de Quart]

And by Overarm, I mean actually holding the spear like you are going to throw it but thrust with it. However it might be conflicted with throwable spear. Arghggh.. see what I mean about the combat system limit?

It is weird, because most HEMA people say again and again that overarm grup is rubbish and underarm grip is way better when using spears.

BUT of course, sources show overarm grip all the time. Is it a tropos of the visual art, a remnant of a time where soldiers wore heavier armour and spears needed a lot of thrust and less reach and maneauvrability? Did they use them in a way HEMA people just don't know about?

Secondly, the overhand grip allows for a level change, now while your fellow spearmen stab at the legs and feet of the enemy, you stab over and into their neck/face. There is plenty of leverage to kill someone, and you actually have more of an arc infront of you where the spear is dangerous with an overhand grip. You'll also need an overhand grip to effectively fight 2nd rank with kite shields, the tail of the shield of the man infront of and to your right will severely restrict your movements.

Your point seems robust.

 

[Azhael]

In close combat, not in duels. That's why spearmen wear a sidearm. But the duel attempts on this video and conclusions from it is rubbish, because they intentionally avoided quick thrusts to the face. If they used them, they would have to raise their shields, covering their heads and losing sight for a second. And doing so, you have no idea where the next quick thrust will come from.

There's another video I'll link later when I have time, which is quite interesting and where they do have head protection.

 

[Ryotarou]

Sturgian Shock troops, for instance, don't even understand the concept of a shield wall.

(If you tell them to shield wall, they'll unequip their shields whenever any enemy is within 30 meters of them and use their 2h Spear, allowing for them to get annihilated by archers)

YES ahahhahah

This game need a Phalanx

 

[zenDzee]

A spear can kill you through chainmail, a spear can kill you through plate armor even.

Can you kill with a spear by simply extending your arm? No, you cannot. You have to include body movement into your strike. In the game they strike only by extending their arms. And they lean forward just for the range. There is no power on their strikes. Do you want good damage in the game? - move you body during a strike.

 

[Nickname]

It is weird, because most HEMA people say again and again that overarm grup is rubbish and underarm grip is way better when using spears.

BUT of course, sources show overarm grip all the time. Is it a tropos of the visual art, a remnant of a time where soldiers wore heavier armour and spears needed a lot of thrust and less reach and maneauvrability? Did they use them in a way HEMA people just don't know about?

I'm not an expert, but afaik HEMA is mostly duels, while historically it's mostly shield wall vs shield wall. And in tight formation overarm seems superior. Because your shield doesn't get in the way, you can thrust to the left and to the right freely, and you can attack over enemy shields, and you can throw the spear at any moment, and so on.

Edit: if shields in the front row overlap, it seems impossible to hold a spear any other way..

 

[Hndzm]

It is weird, because most HEMA people say again and again that overarm grup is rubbish and underarm grip is way better when using spears.

BUT of course, sources show overarm grip all the time. Is it a tropos of the visual art, a remnant of a time where soldiers wore heavier armour and spears needed a lot of thrust and less reach and maneauvrability? Did they use them in a way HEMA people just don't know about?

I think the overarm grip is definitely more visually compelling, spears raised in the air are easier to depict than them all clustered together, struggling to make it through the clash and into a foe. I do have suspicions about spears being used in an overhand grip by horsemen being fantasy, it would decrease the range of your weapon and the body mechanics don't work as well as a simple thrust. Perhaps if tied down against other cavalry or an army of very tall men?

The overarm grip isn't useless, it's HEMA's sport/duel aspect and particular historical focus that makes it perform and seem so. In a real combat you are killing people, not scoring points.

Can you kill with a spear by simply extending your arm? No, you cannot. You have to include body movement into your strike. In the game they strike only by extending their arms. And they lean forward just for the range. There is no power on their strikes. Do you want good damage in the game? - move you body during a strike.

This is just a problem with animations in the game, which I do agree, are lacking. Simply because the animation is bad does not mean spears should be in the game.

Without armor? Yes I could absolutely kill someone with a spear and only my arm, standing still feet shoulder width apart, one arm at my side.