A response to all the complaining about the recent economy changes

[Casseius]

You don't ignore a leaky roof just because you got some other things to work on


I have no ideal what a mentalist is but okay. It made no sense that caravans were never attacked yet made so much money, so it was a pretty good step in the right direction. Placing it into the regular branch ensures that the balance would reach everybody and not just those opting into the beta


There shouldn't be so many scenes and loading screens to interact with merchants and other important NPCs I agree, but I have never used a caravan in my 100 hours, surely not being able to get an ezpz 1000+ denars a day within 30 days into the game won't break it for you?

You say that caravans live forever, but there was a poll and pretty much 60% of the caravans get destroyed on the first week.

The economy is probably the most important framework that underpins pretty much every aspect of the game and, based on bugs (towns running out of cash) and things TW have said, it is a 'living' system in the game... push down over here and something pops up over there. Caravans are an integral part of this critical system. I would guess that balancing the economy *is* the most important element right now. If your baseline system isn't functioning correctly, how can you correctly judge the impact of additional content?

It would be like building a transmission before you know the output of an engine. Once you hook it up it may just explode

There are lot of features missing that will affect the economy, so its waste to redo the economy again and again when core elements missing.

 

[Havada]

Ye I probably won't use caravans until they won't be that RNG anymore. But I don't agree with the whole ****storm around this topic. Gold income has to be reduced step by step, also new ways to spend the gold should be introduced step by step. It just takes time and in EA we're here to help the devs, not to demand anything. In the past I was working on a mmorpg game that had few hundreds of active players, we were creating this game for free for the people. And it was soooo time consuming to process any change in a reasonable way, also it was the time when I understood that balancing is insanely hard. It looks easy from the side but when you're doing it it's hell. Our society was really cool and they were trying to help in everything and still, 95% of the feedback was veery disturbing and didn't help at all, the opposite I'd say.

 

[Maximuuus]

Caravans are useless now.
That's a fact.

 

[Wolfsblut]

So much hot air for nothing.

Caravans are useless now.
That's a fact.

Yep, thats pretty much the problem atm.

Took most likely more time to write that blowhard wall of text up there than it would have taken someone to fix it.

 

[Mount On Blade]

What economy changes? The thing with caravans was just a band aid until they do some major rebalancing. The game is still in early access remember?

 

[babelfisch]

You say that caravans live forever, but there was a poll and pretty much 60% of the caravans get destroyed on the first week.

That poll was after the change. Before the change caravans were almost invincible.

Currently it seems like they get destroyed too often, depending on the circumstances. That's why mexxico discusses with people who provide constructive feedback and savegames. For example, Steppe Bandits are a huge threat for caravans and they try to address this in a future patch.

 

[Catskinner]

There are lot of features missing that will affect the economy, so its waste to redo the economy again and again when core elements missing.

I am going to politely disagree with you here. Until you know that the basic framework is functional and robust, how can you know the actual outcome of a 5% perk here, a 'you get double stuff' there? *That* would lead you to redo the economy again and again.

 

[Mergnys]

First of all, Reddit is not something that you should take seriously. It is full of crying kids that know little to none about the games that they are criticising 90% of the time. I say that from experience of being a long time hardcore player from other games which i do not want to promote here but i can say that Reddit overreacts because nowadays it is often full of casual players. But i did read the full post and all i can say is that it is missing the main point of complaints just like the people before me said. Yes, the caravans are giving too much gold but rolling the changes without betatesting is wrong. And also tweaking it without adding the new ways of earning money is a little waste of time because, again, as someone before me said they will have to rebalance it again. To sum it up: The Reddit post is not entirely wrong but it is not something that you should consider bulletproof truth that should be indoctrinated as it is not covering the whole problem. It seems like someone just tried to shine on the internet with It without doing proper research or playing enough to understand the problem.

 

[Odione]

Devs just need to chill with the patching. I know some here see them as gods when they patch everyday (and also hotfix it in panic the second later). It's great when they fix critical crashing and other error that make the game unplayable for many people. I'm also happy about that.

BUT other stuff need more time testing, you can't just change the code in the morning and then just send it to be in the patch the same day (as it feels like right now).

Calm down with the patching and I'm sure this will get better in the end. If the npc are all fat after a patch, forget about it. Mods will fix it for you Devs. Focus on the big problems.

 

[babelfisch]

I am going to politely disagree with you here. Until you know that the basic framework is functional and robust, how can you know the actual outcome of a 5% perk here, a 'you get double stuff' there? *That* would lead you to redo the economy again and again.

I guess both points are valid. If they would spend major resources on fine tuning economy one year before full release that would probably be a waste of time. On the other hand, regarding the caravan changes it's just one developer spending a couple of hours tweaking some numbers. If we end up with a compromise that makes most people happy that's probably 0,00001% of the total development time spend on the game...

 

[Liammorris1990]

I'm not going to read more than the second paragraph, just going to point out that you missing the entire point of people complaining about the Caravan/Economy change, which is that these features were rolled into the stable patch branch without being properly tested in the beta/alpha brances first completely defeating the purpose of having alpha/beta branches in the first place.

Next time before resorting to the low IQ "bUT the GaMe IS EaRly AcCeSS" kneejerk response to stifle any critique or criticism directed at the game, please try to actual understand the reason why the community is upset in the first place.

+1

 

[Nordmann]

The game is still in early access remember?

I genuinely think some on this forum have been brainwashed, and this is some kind of control phrase. Because it's everywhere, as soon as someone tries to post feedback on the game. Very odd!

 

[Odione]

I genuinely think some on this forum have been brainwashed, and this is some kind of control phrase. Because it's everywhere, as soon as someone tries to post feedback on the game. Very odd!

Watch out, soon they report you for trolling also. Trust me it's no joke.

 

[Exorzend]

Personally, the caravan changes don't bother me THAT much. I'll miss making some quick money out of it but the nerfs to them aren't going to dissuade me from playing the game.

However, this does show that the devs have their heads in the wrong places. And no, this isn't an insult. As stated by others before, balancing should come after the finalization (or semi-finalization) of features. Because it's all fun and games for the devs when they balance things now, but later on when new/additional features are implemented that impact the structure of the game (i.e. the economy), the devs will have to redo all their balancing and potentially break things again. Also, what good is balancing if the game keeps bugging out or something.

Secondly, feedback is still feedback. That wall of text in the first page just sounds like pretentious hot air meant to put the devs on a pedestal. Sorry, but as much as I appreciate their efforts, I'm not simping for them. Granted, complaining isn't exactly the most intelligent form of criticism, it still gives them feedback if a change/feature is well-received or not. People complaining about so and so? Maybe we should check it out...see what the problem is. Since a lot of people really love hiding behind the idea of "iT's sTiLl eArLy aCcEsS" then expect a lot of of negativity. The devs knew what they were signing up for by releasing this in EA.

 

[Nordmann]

Watch out, soon they report you for trolling also. Trust me it's no joke.

Oh but I'm not trolling, I'm deadly serious. They come across as mindless drones, repeating the same phrase over and over.

 

[babelfisch]

Oh but I'm not trolling, I'm deadly serious. They come across as mindless drones, repeating the same phrase over and over.

That's probably because it's a valid point depending on the argument.

It's definitely a stupid response to constructive criticism, we all should know that the current state isn't nearly finished and that developers aren't gods who can't do nothing wrong. I'd say feedback is pretty important.
On the other hand I've seen people posting stuff like 'the game should be feature complete by now, bugs aren't allowed to exist and every change should be 100% perfect' and I'd say early access is a valid response to that.

 

[kwando]

I genuinely think some on this forum have been brainwashed, and this is some kind of control phrase. Because it's everywhere, as soon as someone tries to post feedback on the game. Very odd!

Yeah it's becoming stupid... I have had this discussion earlier with another guy on these forums and all he was able to do was nitpick my words instead of actually discussing about the arguments I made. Sure nerfing the caravans had to be done but at least create some ideas behind it.

These devs are just clueless atm. Random fixing stuff while there's so many other things to be fixed atm. I would've expected a economy patch in august. Why do they even care so much that we make money late game, the late game in this game isn't even playable without mods.

 

[ppc]

You don't ignore a leaky roof just because you got some other things to work on

No. This is like having a half-finished wood frame which might support a roof one day and haphazardly putting up some plastic where the rain happened to hit the hardest that day. The rest of the house still gets soaked. Instead, you should put a plastic tarp over the roof - finish up the structure, then finish the roof, then worry about spot-checking for leaks. Fixing the roof before the rest of the structure is complete is nonsense.
The plastic tarp in this case is analogous to having a working economy of some kind which enables play-testing the rest of the game.

 

[SmattlePattle]

Bad thread is bad.
Yes there are always unconstructive ways to voice criticism and it sucks when people do that.
Lots of criticism is framed constructively.

Next time before resorting to the low IQ "bUT the GaMe IS EaRly AcCeSS" kneejerk response to stifle any critique or criticism directed at the game, please try to actual understand the reason why the community is upset in the first place.

 

[daxiapi777]

That's literally just whining though. I'm sure the devs aren't just holding back fixes and features to annoy you personally! Just be patient while they work.

You call that whining? I don't know what to say brother. I was questioning their team/project management. Remember why we only have an EA after 8 years of development? Now, how many more years do we need if they don't know what to prioritize?