Set bows to cut damage and reduce horse hitpoints.
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Khuzait are op
- Thread starter durbal
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durbal
Sergeant
I don't think any of those are necessary. Making cavalry be able to fight other cavalry better or just buffing spear damage while stationary should be enough possibly.
The big issues with the T2 horse archers are a) bows in general and b) wonky AI that makes cavalry so hard to kill. But the T4+ horse archers are just way too tanky overall and their armor and barding need a serious nerf. When the best strategy is to go and distract the AI with a small cav unit so they can draw swords and have a wet noodle fight there's a problem.
it was read, And i do agree on they have a good economy, and a rather safe location, each way to them has a town near it so its easy to bottle neck. They are moddled after the mongol hordes which used cav intensive armies so its themeaticly correct. And good at seiges? defense maybe m they suck attacking,ive taken a 100 strong khuzait army up against a 130 empire castle, while my archers did damage to their numbers, when they ran out of arrows, and my forces tried to take the wall, the lack of decent close quarters weapons and units ment my forces got beaten hard. but in a defence.. those spears, lances, and bows make it hard to take things from them at the same time unless you got crossbows and lost of sheild using units
PhantomHarlock
Recruit
Khuzaits are fine. You just don't know how to fight them.
durbal
Sergeant
Thanks for your input. I obviously just lack skills. Data showing them being the dominant force the plurality of times is not accurate or meaningful.
PhantomHarlock
Recruit
Archers. It also helps to try to engage them in forests.
I don't think they are fine just because they can be beaten in a battle. In fact I would argue that balancing them just for battles is the root of the trouble, because there doesn't seem to be a good tradeoff for the campaign benefits from their broken movespeed bonus on top of all the cav they can field (thus getting even more movespeed). I realize mileage may vary between games but in all of mine they become an unstoppable force in very short order. The fact that someone a couple posts up was talking about how this nomad faction make excellent siege defenders should maybe be a warning sign too.
durbal
Sergeant
AI doesn't care about trees and forests just increase the relative disparity in party speed (-1.4 to a party moving at 6.5 speed is less meaningful than -1.4 to a party moving at 5.3). This isn't real advice and my problem, again, is not winning field battles vs the AI. Horse archers can be OP despite being able to roflstomp the AI. For example, horse archers can beat a force over 5x their size in the player's hands. What other units can do that, and do it so reliably all while being able to pick and choose their battles? It's completely OP.
-equip fine steel manvlion
-follow horse archers
-??????
-Victory
-follow horse archers
-??????
-Victory
The Khuzaits could probably use a small rebalancing. Calling them "cancer" is a serious oversell of your point however.
Frankly I've never had a huge problem coming to grips with the Khuzaits, because unlike their Khergit descendents, they usually drag along a large contingent of infantry. It's when you're trying to deal with village raiders that the Khuzaits give you a major headache.
And you are right that they can set the terms of the engagement to a point, one of the causes of their success is their ability to zerg rush anyone who wanders into their territory, wipe out their army and take the offensive. but there's plenty of ways to make them play to your strengths. Taking one of their castles and deliberately leaving it underdefended will bring their armies like a moth to flame. Just as one example.
For the confused, he's talking about the STRATEGIC impact of horse archers. The fact that the Khuzaits have so much cavalry gives them a big boost to movement speed on the map, which has consequences when it comes to choosing when to attack, choosing when to run, and being able to seriously gang up on a powerful force with a lot of small groups and wear it down over time.
For the record the Azerai have many of the same advantages but manage not to be OP. So it's not like what Durbal is requesting is unrealistic.
HAHA 4-f1-f3 horse archers go brrrrr
well, they're really not that OP in the field if you know how to deal with them. infantry should be in a square to catch horses, shieldwall isn't tight enough. having heavy cav helps, always send them to scare away the horse archers. two groups of heav cav, the better, because then you can just pinch the horse archers in a trap. archers, specifically fian champions, make short work of the rest of the khuzait units who are charging into your square and getting stuck.
open field is suicide, always go for hills, forests, and towns when fighting khuzaits.
the worst part about khuzaits is the fact they get a 30% flat bonus to auto battles which is why they always steamroll. until TW fixes autobattles or gives spearmen, pikemen, etc., a bonus against cav in autobattles, it should be removed.
I don't know about the faction balance, I've had different factions dominate different playthroughs.
But the high tier horse archers in the hand of the player is extremely powerful, don't tell them to charge or f6 them because they are much less accurate when riding around. Just put them in a line like normal archers, but the difference is you can just quickly move that archer line around as the enemy approaches. I find I can kill pretty much any number of enemy troops with the heavy horse archers using that method because the enemy infantry can never catch them, the enemy cavalry generally rushes ahead and gets mowed down before it can do anything, and the enemy archers finally can't win because they either waste half their ammo on your horses or you can just switch the horse archers to melee mode and charge them down. Enemy horse archers lose because they miss most of their shots while riding around but your horse archers will hit them because they are standing still and aims without penalty.
So yeah, in my experience the most powerful unit in the game right now is a line of horse archers that fires from a stationary position and only moves now and then to avoid melee.
But the high tier horse archers in the hand of the player is extremely powerful, don't tell them to charge or f6 them because they are much less accurate when riding around. Just put them in a line like normal archers, but the difference is you can just quickly move that archer line around as the enemy approaches. I find I can kill pretty much any number of enemy troops with the heavy horse archers using that method because the enemy infantry can never catch them, the enemy cavalry generally rushes ahead and gets mowed down before it can do anything, and the enemy archers finally can't win because they either waste half their ammo on your horses or you can just switch the horse archers to melee mode and charge them down. Enemy horse archers lose because they miss most of their shots while riding around but your horse archers will hit them because they are standing still and aims without penalty.
So yeah, in my experience the most powerful unit in the game right now is a line of horse archers that fires from a stationary position and only moves now and then to avoid melee.
VincentNZ
Recruit
I really do not see the issue with the Khuzaits on the battlefield, especially when the argument stems from the T2 horse archers. They are, as horse archers always are, a compromise.
The later versions are way better, especially when their horses are barded and their general armour increased. They can then also double als a lighter shock cavalry giving them more utility once their arrows are depleted. However these are T4-6 units, so nothing that you will regularly see (especially not Khan's Guard). Plus they have an extra cost via horses.
The biggest issue indeed stems from their additional movement speed on the campaign map, as this makes it easier for the AI to coordinate attacks, get away from stronger enemies and so forth.
However I mostly view this as a problem of the AI itself and the general campaign movement speed to low, especially for infantry heavy factions. It seems that all factions follow the same AI scripts and that might favour the Khuzait more. I have not seen a playthrough in any case where the Khuzait did not take Amprela 40 days into the campaign. I do not know if that validates any nerf to the Khuzait though.
The later versions are way better, especially when their horses are barded and their general armour increased. They can then also double als a lighter shock cavalry giving them more utility once their arrows are depleted. However these are T4-6 units, so nothing that you will regularly see (especially not Khan's Guard). Plus they have an extra cost via horses.
The biggest issue indeed stems from their additional movement speed on the campaign map, as this makes it easier for the AI to coordinate attacks, get away from stronger enemies and so forth.
However I mostly view this as a problem of the AI itself and the general campaign movement speed to low, especially for infantry heavy factions. It seems that all factions follow the same AI scripts and that might favour the Khuzait more. I have not seen a playthrough in any case where the Khuzait did not take Amprela 40 days into the campaign. I do not know if that validates any nerf to the Khuzait though.
Imho I think this issue is more pronounced because a lot of factions unit rosters are half-baked with the wrong skills buffed and bad equipment choices. Khuzaits seem to be the one that isn't done trash.
That said, in terms of the meta of the map campaign, in my games the Khuzait don't tend to snowball out of control. My worst offenders are always Battania and Southern Empire, so I think its really hard for any single play experience to solidly see who dominates the meta.
That said, in terms of the meta of the map campaign, in my games the Khuzait don't tend to snowball out of control. My worst offenders are always Battania and Southern Empire, so I think its really hard for any single play experience to solidly see who dominates the meta.
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