SP - General [Suggestions] Armor Material Type

[Jdue89]

Consider adding a modifier called "Material type" to armor sets.
Ex.1
item: Imperial cloth coif
material type : cloth

Ex.2.
item: Rangers Mail Shirt
material type: Metal/mail

Ex.3.
item: Vlandian Plate Armor
material type: Metal/plate

Ex.4.
item: Vladian Gambeson
material type: padded cloth

The idea being, that weapon damage react to the material type first and thereafter the armor value for damage reduction.

Ex. ( ">" = beats ,, "<" = do not beat)

cut > cloth
cut > padded cloth (for gameplay reason, padded cloth did work against cutting force, swords more so then axes)
cut > leather
cut < cured leather
cut < metal
cut > wood (shields) (doesn't do damage to person, but increased damage to shield hp)
cut > fur

pierce > fur
pierce > Metal/plate + mail
pierce < padded cloth
pierce > leather
pierce < cured leather
pierce > cloth
pierce > wood (shields) (doesn't do damage to person, but increased damage to shield hp, but more so than cut type damage)

blunt < padded cloth
blunt > cloth
blunt > Metal
blunt > leather (blunt trauma)
blunt < fur
blunt > cured leather
blunt < wood (shields)

cut/pierce/blunt > unarmored (Massively +100% more damage)

note: arrows should be cut and not pierce, only bodkins and bolts should be pierce.


if the weapon beats the material type, damage occurs as normal or with slight bonus, example below, increase brutto damage with 15% for every counter.
(depending on effectiveness of dmg out vs material type, ex. pierce against cloth should not give bonus as its not countering cloth, as in, cloth wouldn't absorb any damage anyway),
then apply the armor value reducing the net damage.
if the weapon don't beat the material no damage or negligible damage is done. most likely the latter for balance. could be something in the line of, reduce brutto damage output by 75% (or as in the example below, reduce brutty damage with 15% for every counter) , and then add armor value damage reduction.
Note: bonus damage (+-) could vary depending on how good it is af countering the material.

Ex.
Weapon: Spiked Mace
damage type: Blunt + piercing
Damage: 55 bp
\AGAINST/
body armor: Plate armor
material: metal/plate,
armor value:30

Damage output to chest at 1m/s:
55*(1+15%+15%)=71bp-30=41bp dmg applied on hit

Ex.2.
Weapon: short sword
damage type: Cut
swing: 41c
thrust: 34p
\AGAINST/
body armor: Plate armor
material: metal/plate,
armor value:30

Damage output to chest at 1m/s:
swing: 41*(1-15%)=34c-30=4c dmg applied on hit
thrust: 34*(1+15%)=39p-30=9p dmg applied on hit

ex.3
Weapon: mace
damage type: blunt
swing: 62b
\AGAINST/
body armor - cape: padded cape (over the shoulders covering chest like, the green hood)
material : padded cloth
armor value: 8pc
body armor: Plate armor
material: metal/plate,
armor value: 30mp

Damage output to chest at 1m/s:
swing: (62*(1-15%)-8pc)*(1+15%)=51b-30mp=21b dmg applied on hit

The overall idea being, to make a "rock paper scissor" system, with as much realism as possible.

ex.
Bows did not defeat plate armor, that's why plate armor was invented, and in turn the crossbow was invented to defeat plate armor.
crossbow(pierce) > Plate(metal) > bow(cut) > crossbows (because of mobility+speed of bows)
making bows do Cut damage and crossbows pierce makes up for this. but with the material type modifier its even possible to make arrows bounce off plate (as in real life), for gameplay reason, stronger bows, with right arrows (bodkins) would still pierce plate somewhat.

 

[willholton1]

Simply adding a "+1", since I agree that it would be nice to have different damage and armor types, and the idea of trumping. You can see this is an issue when you are getting easily pelted to death by rocks while in plate.

An example would be RPG systems like The Riddle of Steel, Song of Swords, or Sword and Scoundrel.

 

[Memoefe]

I think current systems does this anyways. There are some stats needs to be tweaked, but in the and this doesn't need to change

 

[zMasterofPie]

maybe does already do it but just incase, +1. btw pierce should beat padded cloth, and cut shouldn't. irl thrusts can easily get through gambesons while for cuts you need an very sharp sword.

 

[Jdue89]

I think current systems does this anyways. There are some stats needs to be tweaked, but in the and this doesn't need to change

maybe i should put in more examples then to get the idea better across.

ex.
Weapon: Crossbow
damage type: Pierce
thrust: 81p
\AGAINST/
body armor - cape: Mail cover
material : Metal/mail
armor value: 18m
body armor: Thick Gambeson
material: Padded cloth
armor value: 23pc
total armor value = 41

Damage output to chest at 1m/s at 10m range.
(81p*(1+20%)-18m)*(1-20%)=63p-23pc=40p dmg applied on hit
vs (the system now)
81p-(18m+23pc*(0,34))=55p dmg applied on hit
difference: 37.5% less dmg.

ex.
Weapon: Crossbow
damage type: Pierce
thrust: 81p
\AGAINST/
body armor - cape: padded cover
material : Padded cloth
armor value: 6pc
body armor: Plate armor
material: Metal/plate
armor value: 30mp
total armor value = 36

Damage output to chest at 1m/s at 10m range.
(81p*(1-20%)-6pc)*(1+15%)=67p-30mp=37p dmg applied on hit
vs (the system now)
81p-(6pc+30mp*(0,34))=64p dmg applied on hit
difference: 72.9% less dmg.

ex.
Weapon: Crossbow
damage type: Pierce
thrust: 81p
\AGAINST/
body armor - cape: Mail cover
material : Metal/mail
armor value: 18m
body armor: Plate armor
material: Metal/plate
armor value: 30mp
total armor value = 48

Damage output to chest at 1m/s at 10m range.
(81p*(1+20%)-18m)*(1+15%)=91p-30mp=61p dmg applied on hit
vs (the system now)
81p-(18m+30mp*(0,34))=52p dmg applied on hit
difference: 17.3% more dmg.

see how this system changes the dmg output dependent on your armor loadout more, suddenly its good to have a gambeson (or some padded armor) on instead of only plate/mail armor (even more so if you take price of equipment into account) if you are up against pierce (in this example crossbows) and armor value alone has less to say.
the system with cut, pierce, and blunt right now only applies a damage reduction based on armor value alone. that is,
cut = penetrates 1/2 the armor value
pierce= penetrates 2/3 the armor value
blunt= penetrates 3/4 the armor value
what the current system does is, you can take a cape on with high body armor value, and NO body armor, and take a giant axe hit to the gut, and still laugh it off.

I forgot to put this in, in the original post:
unarmored < anything, +100% more dmg from all types, or even go as high as 150%.

fur > blunt
fur < cut
fur < pierce

ex.
Weapon: Crossbow
damage type: Pierce
thrust: 81p
\AGAINST/
body armor - cape: Thick armored bear pelt
material : Fur
armor value: 21f
material : Plate
armor value: 12mp
body armor: none
material: unarmored
armor value: 0ua
total body armor value = 33

Damage output to chest at 1m/s at 10m range.
(81p*(1+25%)-21f)*(1+15%)=(92p-12mp)*(1+100%)=160p dmg applied on hit
vs (the system now)
81p-(21f+12mp+0ua*(0,34))=56p dmg applied on hit
difference: 185.7% more dmg.

ex.
Weapon: Black heart (2-handed axe)
damage type: cut
thrust: 113c
\AGAINST/
body armor - cape: Thick armored bear pelt
material : fur
armor value: 21f
material : Plate
armor value: 12mp
body armor: none
material: unarmored
armor value: 0ua
total body armor value = 33

Damage output to chest at 1m/s.
(113c*(1+25%)-21f)*(1-20%)=(96c-12mp)*(1+100%)=168c dmg applied on hit
vs (the system now)
113c-(21f+12mp+0ua*(0,5))=86c dmg applied on hit
difference: 95.3% more dmg.

ex.
Weapon: Heavy mallet
damage type: blunt
thrust: 62b
\AGAINST/
body armor - cape: Thick armored bear pelt
material : fur
armor value: 21f
material : Plate
armor value: 12mp
body armor: none
material: unarmored
armor value: 0ua
total body armor value = 33

Damage output to chest at 1m/s.
(62b*(1-25%)-21f)*(1+20%)=(31b-12mp)*(1+100%)=37b dmg applied on hit
vs (the system now)
62b-(21f+12mp+0ua*(0,25))=38b dmg applied on hit
difference: 2% less dmg.

 

[Jdue89]

maybe does already do it but just incase, +1. btw pierce should beat padded cloth, and cut shouldn't. irl thrusts can easily get through gambesons while for cuts you need an very sharp sword.

watch this i know its a bow, but its a warbow, as in high draw weight, with a bodkin (piercing arrow)


spoiler: it do not get through a 2-3cm padded cloth

 

[darksoulshin]

+1

 

[zMasterofPie]

watch this i know its a bow, but its a warbow, as in high draw weight, with a bodkin (piercing arrow)


spoiler: it do not get through a 2-3cm padded cloth

I've seen a video similar to that, but with a crossbow. I don't really know why bodkin bolts fail against gambesons but sword thrusts get through easily, much better than cuts. (ALSO SEE 7:30 FOR A MORE PROTECTIVE PADDED JACK)

 

[Jdue89]

I've seen a video similar to that, but with a crossbow. I don't really know why bodkin bolts fail against gambesons but sword thrusts get through easily, much better than cuts. (ALSO SEE 7:30 FOR A MORE PROTECTIVE PADDED JACK)

not to be a buzz killer, but if you watch the video from start, its clearly seen that the "padded cloth" here is not made of linen, but wool (used against blunt force) and its not really tightly stacked (again better vs blunt force). this is also seen when they "cut" it, but really they only smash the swords against it, not making the slice movement for the cut. and when they then stab it, (thrust) they do go right though it, because they are piercing wool with thin linen on the outside, its not made to stop cuts or pierce, but the cushion against blunt force. They do also call it "fabric armor" in the title, and not "padded armor". i bet you, that if they had tried this with padded armor, they wouldn't get though it that easily, a 120 pounds warbow with bodkin arrow does jack ****, leaves you with a big bruise and maybe a small cut, these skinny ass guys are not throwing a thrust worth of 120 pounds = 54 kg in a tiny point (bodkins area of impact) :'D

 

[Jdue89]

I've seen a video similar to that, but with a crossbow. I don't really know why bodkin bolts fail against gambesons but sword thrusts get through easily, much better than cuts. (ALSO SEE 7:30 FOR A MORE PROTECTIVE PADDED JACK)

okay, just saw the whole video, they even admit its not historical accurate, and thats its wool :'D and they definitely do not know how to wield a sword, they are just smashing it against the "armor" the "swing or cut" is not connecting with the armor at all. the protective padded jack is still made with wool, and not linen. and its still not that tightly packed as a proper padded armor
Padded armor in the middle ages was often made up of 28-30+ layers of tightly packed linen. what they smash their swords against here is in total of 2 layers of linen with 18 layers of thin wool, loosely packed in between. just saying :p

 

[Jdue89]

just another fine video of the effect of armor against arrows it would be cool to see something like this in bannerlord, when you are in full plate armor, but i understand for gameplay reason it should still do some damage of sorts.

 

[zMasterofPie]

Well, I admit defeat. I guess at least I learned something, thank you.