Bannerlord: Tabula Rasa (OOC)

[Úlfheðinn]

Bannerlord: Tabula Rasa

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OOC Thread for the Bannerlord play-by-post I just posted.

Post any characters you want to add/play here.

Name suggestions welcome (lol, I can't name ****).

Spoiler: Rules

This RP will essentially and ideally be the Battle for Tihr 2.0 (legendary forum RP)
Be cool, be nice, don't fight (or I'll start moderating/banning)
Write a character that fits the setting and do some fun/cool/interesting stuff as you explore the world of Bannerlord in a classic play-by-post fashion. Be creative, you can write whoever you want within reason. Write a merchant looking to trade who gets involved in something above their head. Write a surgeon trying to make a living in a world of war. Write a youth just stepping out into the world for the first time. Post a simple character concept (name, age, profession, appearance, brief history) in the out of character (OOC) thread and I'll almost certainly approve it.
As with Battle for Tihr, I'm aiming for low GMing/moderation and ideally I'd love to see some player initiative and cooperation (but I'm also happy to help or provide some sort of push in character if you get suck).
Be reasonable (don't start with a super bad-ass army, unbeatable character, and avoid ever losing. Suffering and failure add to any character, don't just write to win.
Related to the above, if characters or armies are really dumb, I'm gonna step in and offer some feedback (with the goal of reaching a reasonable compromise). I ideally want to see some fun writing between people, not one player writing an army that wrecks everyone and everything so they can feel bad-ass.
Similarly, if you can't resolve something with another player, please send me a PM and I will attempt to moderate your dispute.

Spoiler: Map of Calradia

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Character Sheet Template:

Spoiler: CS

Name: (Simply a worthy name for your character, if possible try to pick something that fits the character's origins and the lore of Mount and Blade Bannerlord)
Gender: (No real restrictions on gender, barring some very specific professions, see lore section for more information)
Age: (Unless you have some very good reasons I would prefer all characters were eighteen years of age or older)
Faction of Birth: What faction (nation) does your character hail from?
Allegiance: List any particular allegiance your character has (although ideally they should simply be a soldier/mercenary/trader/etc. looking for work)
Experience: (Choose from one of three experience levels: green, veteran, or elite, to indicate the general competence of your character. This choice should make sense given the background of your character and other factors like their age, for example a 15 year old peasant will probably not be the most capable soldier)
Feudal Rank: Commoner or Noble (major/minor nobility)

Appearance: (Describe in writing what your character looks like, their stature and any other physical attributes that you feel are important. Length is negotiable, but at least a couple of solid sentences are usually needed to flesh out a character's appearance. )

Personality: (Again, I don't really need a huge amount of text, but I'd like to see a couple of sentences that give a "feel" for who your character is and how people are likely to perceive them.)

Talents: (A couple of sentences mentioning any specific talents or skills your character brings to the party, i.e. mention if your character is a trained swordsman, pickpocket, hunter, blacksmith, chemist, etc.)

Biography: (Short and sweet biography of your character. Essentially, anything major about them you think matters and/or could be useful for others to know. If there are some things about your character you would rather not publicly reveal you may PM me these portions of your character's background. With that being said I will not accept blanket statements of "I'll reveal his/her background during the RP" unless you can provide me with some amazing reasoning why this is fair to the other players.)

Equipment: (Check the Weapons, Armor, Equipment, and Combat section for information regarding equipment)

Worn (clothing/armor):

Weapons (melee weapons, shields and ranged weapons):

Mount: (If your character has a horse or camel or mule, list here)

Miscellaneous (anything else):

 

[Úlfheðinn]

Saving Post 2

 

[Úlfheðinn]

Saving Post 3

 

[Úlfheðinn]

Saving Post 4

 

[Úlfheðinn]

Saving Post 5

 

[Úlfheðinn]

Random plot stuff I plan to pursue if you feel absolutely lost.

Spoiler: Captain Doro and his merry band of mercs

1. Captain Doro has just arrived in Sargot, his goals are to raise a minor army before heading South East to fight some forest bandits
2. After some rest his next plan is to recruit some soldiers. He will do this in no small party by recruiting criminals from the local jail.
3. A character starting in jail or one who happens to be in the city of Sargot at RP start would be an easy character to link up with Captain Doro.

As a note, this is just my own personal plot, not some major world plot, but I know people can sometimes feel it's hard to join in. Basically, I'm more than happy to see someone write a completely unrelated and independent character (I'm sharing this basic breakdown so that if you're just interested in a single character or just one to wet your feet, you can see what I am planning).

In Battle for Tihr, we used a pretty fast/loose party system, where people could join in or separate from other players as desired and that is something I would like to maintain.

 

[Úlfheðinn]

Spoiler: Captain Dorotheus Kourtikios

Name: Dorotheus Kourtikios
Gender: Male
Age: 31
Faction of Birth: Calradic Empire (now known as the Southern Empire)
Allegiance: Commissioned as a mercenary captain by the Vlandian lord, Duke Merthurin of the House of Tihr. Formerly a member of the Legion of the Betrayed and the Imperial Army of the Calradic Empire.
Experience: Elite
FeudalRank: Minor Noble

Appearance: Standing tall above most men, Captain Doro has an air of confidence about him, the sort of bearing that only a man born into nobility seems capable of mustering. His face bears the familiar marks of battle and his martial trade and on cold days Captain Doro can be seen favoring his left leg. The mercenary captain keeps his black hair short, his beard trimmed, and his sizable mustache in the utmost condition.

Personality: An exceedingly charming man, Captain Doro seems to be capable of inspiring his men to follow him even in the most foolhardy of endeavors and hopeless of battles. A gentleman in name and appearance only, Captain Doro is a seasoned mercenary captain and does his best to secure the maximum profit for himself and his soldiers and places little value on fleeting concepts like honor. Enough denars can buy absolution from any sin and running is as useful of a tactic as standing to fight. Valuing his own life highly, Captain Doro is fond of unorthodox tactics and military decisions that preserve his own person and those of his troops. He is brave when necessary, but remains intimately aware of how expendable a mercenary truly is regardless of their origins.

Talents: A noble destined for the military from his birth, Captain Doro is skilled with the many tools of war and sees his mount as an extension of himself. He has spent his life campaigning across Calradia and has grown into a capable tactician and leader through experience and hard lessons paid for in blood.

Biography: Born in Lycaron as the seventh son of a minor noble of the Calradic Empire, Dorotheus Kourtikios knew from his earliest days that there was precious little inheritance awaiting him. Instead, he grew up learning the ways of war and trained to be a knight of the realms. In his youth, he served as a squire for Lord Petrus of the House of Vizartos and earned his spurs at the famed Battle of Vostrum. Before it's disolation by Emperor Arenicos himself, Captain Doro served in the Imperial Army as a member of the much feared Imperial Cataphracts. Seeing little reason to return home, Captain Doro joined with other disgruntled soldiers and helped to found the Legion of the Betrayed. In the years that followed, he fought his way across most of Calradia, fighting for imperial and foreign lords alike, provided the coin was good enough.

Recently, Captain Doro has been commissioned as a mercenary captain by the Vlandian lord, Duke Merthurin of the House of Tihr. Having just arrived in Sargot, he is looking to recruit soldiers for his upcoming campaign against the Brotherhood of the Forest.

Equipment:

Worn (clothing): Captain Doro dresses practically but with a tasteful hint of elegance. If free to choose, he wears a green tunic fringed with silk embroidery dyed a rich shade of gold, hose over his lower limbs, and a pair of well-made riding boots. He prefers a thick, hooded cloak of Vlandian wool, dyed a dark shade of green for riding and in winter he dons a close-fitting Sturgian coat lined with fur.

Worn (armor): When dressed for battle Captain wears a green surcoat over mail. To further guard against the the impact of any blows he also wears a thick, brown gambeson beneath his armor. His hands are protected by mail mittens, his feet rest inside a pair of splinted greaves and over a padded coif he wears an open helm of a distinctly Imperial design.

Weapons (melee weapons, shields and ranged weapons): As a knight and experienced soldier, Captain Doro is rarely is found far from his long arming sword, a parting gift from Lord Petrus for his loyal years of service. He favors a heater shield of solid construction and a double sided lance for mounted combat, holding quick lighting strikes against his foes in high esteem. When meeting the enemy in close quarters Doro is quick to employ his military hammer to deadly effect, having found that more often than not an armored foe is more easily dispatched with a brutal instrument of war than with an expensive blade. Like most knights Doro also carries a cruel misericorde with him in order to dispatch wounded or heavily armored enemies.

Mount: Captain Doro currently owns a dapple gray courser. Young and strong, Captain Doro bought the loyal creature for a sizable sum before departing from the Southern Empire.

Miscellaneous (anything else):

 

[IA]

You're back for less than a second there Swedish Chef and you're already stealth pushing empiricism over innatism like you're the second coming o Gustaf af Leopold? I didn't realize how much I've missed you until this moment....

 

[Úlfheðinn]

Watch me smash dualism next.

 

[Lord Tim]

Ha! I was already working on something similar. I hope to post like twice a week. Incoming character.

 

[Vovolov]

How is this?

Spoiler: Owain the Poacher

Name: Owain

Gender: Male

Age: 24

Faction of Birth: Battanian, lived between Mag Arba and Inveth

Allegiance: None

Experience: Green

Feudal Rank: Commoner (kin of serfs)


Appearance: 5'7, little fat on his bones. Fair skinned, but clearly spends his days outside. Wiry, underfed and unwashed. Gray, sunken eyes neighbour his eagle's nose. His lips are thin and his mouth tight. Keeps his facial hair short. Wears his auburn hair unkempt, cut to about shoulder length. Missing part of his left ring finger (two fingerbones length). Numerous small scars pock his skin - most the result of cuts and scrapes from stalking through underbrush.


Personality: Patient, cynical and shy. Likes a drink, prefers staying away from crowds.


Talents: A decent tracker and a good shot with a longbow. Can handle a boar spear. Knows how to skin a wide variety of animals.


Biography: Owain grew up in a small village near Inveth. Born to Battanian serfs, he spent his days toiling in the fields. When Northmen came as vikings to raid the village, his parents were captured and enslaved. He survived by luck alone, having been out in the nearby copse with his childhood friends Aedmun and Lowell. The village eventually recovered, with peasants and farmers returning to work the fields. He and his friends survived by taking on work in the fields, until Owain made friends with a hunter named Bor who desired an apprentice. Bor taught him the tricks of the trade - how to track prey, use a bow and how to skin animals. Times were hard though, and the Lord of Ab Comer Castle had claimed much of the forest as his own to hunt on, and poachers were dealt with harshly. With not many options left, Owain and Bor resorted to poaching deep in the forests between Mag Arba and Inveth. They would spend long days in search of game, and whatever they caught they could sell to an unscrupulous merchant who would meet them outside Inveth if they had any meat or skins to sell. One morning, having ventured across the river between Sargot and Ab Comer Castle in pursuit of a large group of boar, they were spotted by a party of the Lord of Sargot's men, who saw them for what they were - poachers. Bor had ran, and told Owain to do the same, but he had been run down before reaching the river. As Bor swam across, he had been hit by an arrow, and had floated, limp, downriver. Owain was captured and taken to Sargot, where he now awaited his judgement behind bars. As he recalled, the punishment for poaching was hanging...


Equipment: None.


Worn: A simple, ragged, tunic. Old leather boots with worn soles, and leg wrappings.


Weapons: None; his bow and skinning knife were taken from him.


Mount: None.

 

[Lord Tim]

Spoiler: Loren

Name: Loren
Gender: Male
Age: 24
Faction of Birth: Battania, fen Penraic
Allegiance: Loren is a commoner bound to the village of Glintor, putting him under the reign of fen Penraic of the Battanians. He works for a local freeman and landowner called Sein. His true loyalties though, lie with his friends and family.
Experience: Scholar
FeudalRank: Commoner/serf

Appearance: Loren is a healthy young man of slight above average size and strength. He keeps his dark brown hair clean and short to mid-length. His facial hair is limited to a goatee. His eyes are greyish brown.

Personality:
Loren has his way with people. Even though he has few actual achievements in life, he has always been able to befriend the right people and is generally a well tolerable person. He has the rare combination of confidence and humbleness that makes it hard for men to hate him. Besides that, he is intelligent and articulate and you won't easily win an argument with him unless you use either authority or violence. Unfortunately for him, that confidence and smarts are of little use to him when actually working as he gets nervous and clumsy whenever people are watching. Loren shines however, in crisis situations, where he excels in keeping calm and acting effectively.

Talents: Apart from his people skills, Loren spent some years as a scholar and was taught reading, writing, history, law, religion and politics, making him stand out from the other villagers. Growing up in the village he learned some basic elements of farming and crafting, but was never an apprentice to any of the workers. He spent a lot of his early youth playing outside though and was kept well-fed by his relatively prosperous family. Because of this you might mistake him for a nobleman rather than a common serf. In a fistfight, he might just get the better of his opponent by just putting his back into it.

Biography: Loren, son of Llum, was born in the village of Glintor as the first child of a Battanian family. His mother was the bastard daughter and only child of a chieftain from the, by now extinct noble line of fen Klansy. Despite her being a bastard and a commoner, he made sure she and her family were well provided until he himself died a few years ago as the last descendant of his house. He has a three year younger brother Egon and would've had a 6 year younger sister, but the girl died at birth and took her mom with her, leaving Llum alone with two sons. He remarried, but never had children again. Egon and Loren could never find peace with their new mom. Their noble grandfather ensured their futures by providing them with jobs outside the village. Egon became a guard at Flintolg Castle serving their noble overlords of fen Penraic. Loren was sent off to the town of Car Banseth where he became a scholar and was taught by priests and healers together with sons of noblement and rich, free merchant families. In Car Banseth he always felt rather out of place and was never truly liked by his superiors, who tought he was no more than a lucky bastard commoner protected by a guilt-ridden nobleman. After the Klansy-line died out, he was laid off before earning any rights or titles. He was forced to return as a serf for fen Penraic at Glintor, empty handed. He didn't have a learnt trade, nor any experience worth anything to a village of farmers, hunters and loggers. While his father was empathic and caring, without the Klansy-support he could not afford to house a grown man unless he could provide for himself. A local landowner called Sein employed him because of his ability to write and read. Quickly he realised though that his real job was that of an errand boy for a man that bought all the respect he had with some, and earned all the hate he got from others. Beggars can't be choosers... Loren spent the last three months feeling no better than a farm animal, living and dying at his masters' will.

Equipment:
Worn (clothing): Loren has the same woven clothing like most villagers often enriched with wool and hides to keep them warm in the cold northern Battanian winters. His clothes are almost always clean and mostly intact, unlike most locals. An old habit from his days under the Klansy-protection and as a scholar. Sein also believes it should be clear that any man who works for him has the looks of a well-fed, fashionable employee. So at least there are some perks to the job.

Weapons (melee weapons, shields and ranged weapons): Loren does not really own any weapons. In case he needs one, his best bet would probably be to grab the nearest tool that isn't a feather quill.

Mount: Loren doesn't own a mount, although he has the basics of riding a horse. He'd probably need some help saddling it properly and he definitely doesn't stand a chance in mounted combat, but he could hypothetically take one to travel to the next village or so.

Languages: Loren, like most people, speaks common imperial Calradian. He also has a basic grasp of old Battanian, a language still spoken in the northern regions of the continent.

 

[Vovolov]

Nice. I like the old Battanian idea; has Loren learnt it through his studies or is it something that commoners would learn from their elders, maybe using a saying or word to describe specific things here and there, or for use in rituals? I think perhaps Owain would know some of it, too.

 

[Lord Tim]

How is this?

Nice character addition! Look forward to adventuring with ya. You probably meant Hongard and Hongard castle though.

Nice. I like the old Battanian idea; has Loren learnt it through his studies or is it something that commoners would learn from their elders, maybe using a saying or word to describe specific things here and there, or for use in rituals? I think perhaps Owain would know some of it, too.

While we used to have invented languages in the previous RP as well, like Old Norse and Rhodokian dialects. Old Battanian is actually established as an actual language in the game proper. The village description of Cantrec contains "Cantrec is one of the southernmost districts of Calradia that still speaks the old Battanian tongue". I read this in-game a few days ago and I immediatly imagined it would be a fun thing to play with in the eventual RP.

 

[Úlfheðinn]

Ha! I was already working on something similar. I hope to post like twice a week. Incoming character.

I was going to wait, but then I binged one evening and spent 5 hours playing Bannerlord, after which I decided I need to do this.

While we used to have invented languages in the previous RP as well, like Old Norse and Rhodokian dialects. Old Battanian is actually established as an actual language in the game proper. The village description of Cantrec contains "Cantrec is one of the southernmost districts of Calradia that still speaks the old Battanian tongue". I read this in-game a few days ago and I immediatly imagined it would be a fun thing to play with in the eventual RP.

Strongly agree with this, the system of "Old" Language X seemed to work really well and I think is pretty logical/realistic.

Spoiler: Owain the Poacher

Name: Owain
Gender: Male
Age: 24
Faction of Birth: Battanian, lived between Rodetan and Hanger
Allegiance: None
Experience: Green
Feudal Rank: Commoner (kin of serfs)

Appearance: 5'7, little fat on his bones. Fair skinned, but clearly spends his days outside. Wiry, underfed and unwashed. Gray eyes, sunken eyes neighbour his eagle's nose. His lips are thin and his mouth tight. Keeps his facial hair short. Wears his auburn hair unkempt, cut to about shoulder length. Missing part of his left ring finger (two fingerbones length). Numerous small scars pock his skin - most the result of cuts and scrapes from stalking through underbrush.

Personality: Patient, cynical and shy. Likes a drink, prefers staying away from crowds.

Talents: A decent tracker and a good shot with a longbow. Can handle a boar spear. Knows how to skin a wide variety of animals.

Biography: Owain grew up in a small village near Hanger. Born to Battanian serfs, he spent his days toiling in the fields. When Northmen came as vikings to raid the village, his parents were captured and enslaved. He survived by luck alone, having been out in the nearby copse with his childhood friends Aedmun and Lowell. The village eventually recovered, with peasants and farmers returning to work the fields. He and his friends survived by taking on work in the fields, until Owain made friends with a hunter named Bor who desired an apprentice. Bor taught him the tricks of the trade - how to track prey, use a bow and how to skin animals. Times were hard though, and the Lord of Hangert Castle had claimed much of the forest as his own to hunt on, and poachers were dealt with harshly. With not many options left, Owain and Bor resorted to poaching deep in the forests between Rodetan and Hanger. They would spend long days in search of game, and whatever they caught they could sell to an unscrupulous merchant who would meet them outside Rodetan if they had any meat or skins to sell. One morning, having ventured even across the river between Sargot and Hanger Castle in pursuit of a large group of boar, they were spotted by a party of the Lord of Sargot's men, who saw them for what they were - poachers. Bor had ran, and told Owain to do the same, but he had been run down before reaching the river. As Bor swam across, he had been hit by an arrow, and had floated, limp, downriver. Owain was captured and taken to Sargot, where he now awaited his judgement behind bars. As he recalled, the punishment for poaching was hanging...

Equipment: None.

Worn: A simple, ragged, tunic. Old leather boots with worn soles, and leg wrappings.

Weapons: None; his bow and skinning knife were taken from him.

Mount: None.

Fantastic! Awesome character with a compelling backstory that is so realistic and reasonable it's wonderful to see.

Spoiler: Loren

Name: Loren
Gender: Male
Age: 24
Faction of Birth: Battania, fen Penraic
Allegiance: Loren is a commoner bound to the village of Glintor, putting him under the reign of fen Penraic of the Battanians. He works for a local freeman and landowner called Sein. His true loyalties though, lie with his friends and family.
Experience: Scholar
FeudalRank: Commoner/serf

Appearance: Loren is a healthy young man of slight above average size and strength. He keeps his dark brown hair clean and short to mid-length. His facial hair is limited to a goatee. His eyes are greyish brown.

Personality:
Loren has his way with people. Even though he has few actual achievements in life, he has always been able to befriend the right people and is generally a well tolerable person. He has the rare combination of confidence and humbleness that makes it hard for men to hate him. Besides that, he is intelligent and articulate and you won't easily win an argument with him unless you use either authority or violence. Unfortunately for him, that confidence and smarts are of little use to him when actually working as he gets nervous and clumsy whenever people are watching. Loren shines however, in crisis situations, where he excels in keeping calm and acting effectively.

Talents: Apart from his people skills, Loren spent some years as a scholar and was taught reading, writing, history, law, religion and politics, making him stand out from the other villagers. Growing up in the village he learned some basic elements of farming and crafting, but was never an apprentice to any of the workers. He spent a lot of his early youth playing outside though and was kept well-fed by his relatively prosperous family. Because of this you might mistake him for a nobleman rather than a common serf. In a fistfight, he might just get the better of his opponent by just putting his back into it.

Biography: Loren, son of Llum, was born in the village of Glintor as the first child of a Battanian family. His mother was the bastard daughter and only child of a chieftain from the, by now extinct noble line of fen Klansy. Despite her being a bastard and a commoner, he made sure she and her family were well provided until he himself died a few years ago as the last descendant of his house. He has a three year younger brother Egon and would've had a 6 year younger sister, but the girl died at birth and took her mom with her, leaving Llum alone with two sons. He remarried, but never had children again. Egon and Loren could never find peace with their new mom. Their noble grandfather ensured their futures by providing them with jobs outside the village. Egon became a guard at Flintolg Castle serving their noble overlords of fen Penraic. Loren was sent off to the town of Car Banseth where he became a scholar and was taught by priests and healers together with sons of noblement and rich, free merchant families. In Car Banseth he always felt rather out of place and was never truly liked by his superiors, who tought he was no more than a lucky bastard commoner protected by a guilt-ridden nobleman. After the Klansy-line died out, he was laid off before earning any rights or titles. He was forced to return as a serf for fen Penraic at Glintor, empty handed. He didn't have a learnt trade, nor any experience worth anything to a village of farmers, hunters and loggers. While his father was empathic and caring, without the Klansy-support he could not afford to house a grown man unless he could provide for himself. A local landowner called Sein employed him because of his ability to write and read. Quickly he realised though that his real job was that of an errand boy for a man that bought all the respect he had with some, and earned all the hate he got from others. Beggars can't be choosers... Loren spent the last three months feeling no better than a farm animal, living and dying at his masters' will.

Equipment:
Worn (clothing): Loren has the same woven clothing like most villagers often enriched with wool and hides to keep them warm in the cold northern Battanian winters. His clothes are almost always clean and mostly intact, unlike most locals. An old habit from his days under the Klansy-protection and as a scholar. Sein also believes it should be clear that any man who works for him has the looks of a well-fed, fashionable employee. So at least there are some perks to the job.

Weapons (melee weapons, shields and ranged weapons): Loren does not really own any weapons. In case he needs one, his best bet would probably be to grab the nearest tool that isn't a feather quill.

Mount: Loren doesn't own a mount, although he has the basics of riding a horse. He'd probably need some help saddling it properly and he definitely doesn't stand a chance in mounted combat, but he could hypothetically take one to travel to the next village or so.

Languages: Loren, like most people, speaks common imperial Calradian. He also has a basic grasp of old Battanian, a language still spoken in the northern regions of the continent.

Again, another stellar character. Original, interesting, and likely to both have so many options for character growth/action(or inaction) and also to throw into some cool situations.

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In summary, awesome to see such strong characters and even more awesome to see you gentleman again.

Post when you are able and see you IC!

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For anyone that's lurking but feeling stuck, feel free to PM me or post in this thread with loose ideas and we can work together to help you figure out a character concept to your liking.

 

[Vovolov]

You probably meant Hongard and Hongard castle though.

See, I'm a little confused. The map Ulf used in the OP says the village is Hanger, and the castle is Hangert Castle. I can find a Hongard and Hongard Castle in Bannerlord, but it's in a wildly different location than on that map in the OP. I assume that map is from Warband?

 

[Lord Tim]

Wow! I used the actual Bannerlord map for my character background and have now just realized Ulf's map probably dates way back to a development update. There's places there that aren't in the game now and some locations, like Hongard and Sargot are in very different places. Okay I would suggest we make use of Bannerlord's CURRENT map in-game as it is far more detailed and well... interactive.

 

[Vovolov]

Sounds good. I've updated the locations in my character description to match.

 

[Úlfheðinn]

Yeah, sorry was just too lazy to screencap the current map, but let's stick to whatever is ingame now (bonus points if anyone wants to take a picture and PM it to me).

 

[Vovolov]

I do actually have a couple of questions, I realised yesterday, before I post anything.

How do we handle character interaction? Do we take control of someone's character? I feel like this can go wrong easily. Or do we make short posts? The current posts are girthy (and very good).

What I was aiming for with Owain is that he'd be recruited into Captain Doro's band, if that wasn't clear enough, but I don't really want to write myself into a situation where I would have to write conversation/actions for Ulf's character, though there will hopefully be moments of interaction between them.

I tried finding the Battle of Tihr thread to look for similar situations but I couldn't find that.