Author Topic: suggestion for troop tree progression  (Read 983 times)

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ChengYi

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suggestion for troop tree progression
« on: February 03, 2009, 09:52:42 PM »
i don't think the armies on the steppe is that organized and distinguished as we see them in games. we should name them on their experience level instead of what they are armed with
could be like herdsman->warrior->veteran->bahatur->keshik etc.

i don't know how difficult the coding should be but i think the equipment of tribal warriors should change dependent on what the loot on the battlefield. if their slain enemies have better equipment, then they should pick them up.

the only big difference between the class progression should just be stats 

Lonehwolf

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Re: suggestion for troop tree progression
« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2009, 10:03:34 PM »
Current Trees:

Chinese, Jin Dynasty:
(click to show/hide)

Mongolian Tribes: (A prefix of the tribe name is added to each)
(click to show/hide)

Improvements to that as well as variations so it ain't monotonuous are welcome.

Wei Xiadi has Updated this post.  The pictures now work.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2009, 06:46:42 AM by Wei.Xiadi »

PrettyNipples

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Re: suggestion for troop tree progression
« Reply #2 on: February 04, 2009, 12:59:12 AM »
I think that is a bad ass idea ChengYi ... more realistic...

Wei.Xiadi

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Re: suggestion for troop tree progression
« Reply #3 on: February 04, 2009, 06:43:24 AM »
You may wish to re-upload those pictures.  I can't see them via the screen.  I only see them when I copy the url inside your actual post.

Edit : I fixed your post.  Now the troop tree's can be seen. :) Just click the spoiler icon and bang..It'll appear.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2009, 06:47:29 AM by Wei.Xiadi »

Wei.Xiadi

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Re: suggestion for troop tree progression
« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2009, 05:15:01 PM »

To answer Cheng Yi's post:

You can not have troops auto-equipt items off of loot.  They use 'static array' or something, which makes it impossible to do.  You could give the mongols a variety of weapons and let them automatically pick the one they want, but that doesn't build a good a troop tree, it makes every faction have 6 'trees' each with a bunch of random weapons.  It isn't consistent and..well I'm not sure I like it that much.

What I will be doing is making a bunch of variations for the troop trees so every 2 or so tribes has a unique building set.  A question though.

When Mongolia invaded Northern Jin they attacked with slightly over 95,000 cavalry units, but they had a population of over 400,000.  Could I use this as an idea that Mongolians also used infantry based units? Since well..pure cavalry isn't so functional with the enemy Ai.  I want variation.

You can look at Wolf's post, I edited it to add in the 2 troop trees I made (correct them wherever you see fit).

Thanks.

Lonehwolf

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Re: suggestion for troop tree progression
« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2009, 05:21:14 PM »
When Mongolia invaded Northern Jin they attacked with slightly over 95,000 cavalry units, but they had a population of over 400,000.

GREAT! I'll happily make a quest that starts such a battle.  95k vs 400k? It will be in once the beta is released! :D YAY! EPIC BATTLES!

Wei.Xiadi

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Re: suggestion for troop tree progression
« Reply #6 on: February 04, 2009, 10:28:31 PM »

You mean the Tanguts aka the Xixia.

The main empires of China were the Jin and Song dynasties.  Still - how would we go about...doing that?

Because I do like the idea of tribes becoming stronger when they take on the chinese, (which will take awhile considering how powerful they are) but...I don't really want it so that the tribes closest to china only recieve this benefit? nor do I want the chinese to be so strong that they just destroy all the tribes easily.  It'd need excessive balancing to make sure its pretty much 'fair' for everyone.

Also, you can post ideas for codes (if you want) to wolfs coding thread.  Like if you got an idea or anything, or if you was willing to...lets say..contribute knowledge on coding with him we'd all appreciate it.  But we do need to get these troop trees done asap really.  We can always enhance them later, but the foundations must be set at least.

So...right now we have a standard tree with standard equipment, names can be changed in a later version.  But this isn't really new, I want a way to...I dont know, make it new somehow, or..different at least.

Wei.Xiadi

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Re: suggestion for troop tree progression
« Reply #7 on: February 04, 2009, 11:28:24 PM »

The Jīn Dynasty had several names depending on what part of the language, pinyin = Jīn Cháo  ||  Wade-Giles =  Chin Dynasty ||  Mongolian = Altan Ulus.

The Jin were not all chinese, or rather - the armies that created Jin.  They invaded and conquered the Liao, thus creating the Jin dynasty.  They're a Jurchen people, known for their brilliant horsemanship.  When they defeated the Liao they enlisted lots of Chinese soldiers, thus making use of their own cavalric styled tactics with that of the traditional chinese armies.

The western Xia, aka the Tanguts are a barbarian like people living on the north western part of that kind of area (not sure if its actually china or not).  The Mongols decided to just go around the great wall and crash into the Tanguts = open area into Jin territory.

The Tanguts were heavily influenced by the chinese, but they too had lots of cavalry units and nomadic styles.  But they also had castles and crossbows, so..a mix just like the Jin (but the Jin were a lot more powerful).

Song are not in the game because they didn't do anything.  Song watched the Mongols return to China and watched..just sat there and **** watched them OWN Jin and then watched them beat up the Koreans.  That later created the Yuan Dynasty by the son of Genghis Khan or something.  I forgot the more specific details.



As for the formula, we may edit certain things.  But my priority is with the 'troop builing trees' not the damage ratio made by an archer/ or player.

I need to figure out what troop lists we will use.  right now its very basic, peasant -> archer - heavy archer, ect ect ect

Its a standard simple to understand troop list.  But I'm not sure what to do about anything we may be adding in...we do need something and I'M desperately searching for a way to add in ifantry or some sort of non cavalry unit.  horse vs horse 24/7 will get boring.  We need variety and i'm sure Mongols hunetd on foot in forests and the sorts..they had to.

ChengYi

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Re: suggestion for troop tree progression
« Reply #8 on: February 05, 2009, 12:13:38 AM »

The Jīn Dynasty had several names depending on what part of the language, pinyin = Jīn Cháo  ||  Wade-Giles =  Chin Dynasty ||  Mongolian = Altan Ulus.

The Jin were not all chinese, or rather - the armies that created Jin.  They invaded and conquered the Liao, thus creating the Jin dynasty.  They're a Jurchen people, known for their brilliant horsemanship.  When they defeated the Liao they enlisted lots of Chinese soldiers, thus making use of their own cavalric styled tactics with that of the traditional chinese armies.

The western Xia, aka the Tanguts are a barbarian like people living on the north western part of that kind of area (not sure if its actually china or not).  The Mongols decided to just go around the great wall and crash into the Tanguts = open area into Jin territory.

The Tanguts were heavily influenced by the chinese, but they too had lots of cavalry units and nomadic styles.  But they also had castles and crossbows, so..a mix just like the Jin (but the Jin were a lot more powerful).

Song are not in the game because they didn't do anything.  Song watched the Mongols return to China and watched..just sat there and **** watched them OWN Jin and then watched them beat up the Koreans.  That later created the Yuan Dynasty by the son of Genghis Khan or something.  I forgot the more specific details.



As for the formula, we may edit certain things.  But my priority is with the 'troop builing trees' not the damage ratio made by an archer/ or player.

I need to figure out what troop lists we will use.  right now its very basic, peasant -> archer - heavy archer, ect ect ect

Its a standard simple to understand troop list.  But I'm not sure what to do about anything we may be adding in...we do need something and I'M desperately searching for a way to add in ifantry or some sort of non cavalry unit.  horse vs horse 24/7 will get boring.  We need variety and i'm sure Mongols hunetd on foot in forests and the sorts..they had to.

Song didn't watch, they were aliies of the mongols in beating Jin, Khitai, Xixia, and Dali because Song regarded the 4 nations as lost to foreign invaders. Thats why today in China Genghis Khan is regarded as a hero. In the famous martial art novel Legend of Condor Heroes by Jin Yong, the portrayal of Mongols are very positive

Wei.Xiadi

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Re: suggestion for troop tree progression
« Reply #9 on: February 05, 2009, 12:43:27 AM »

I actually remember reading about that..no idea why i said they just watched, oh well.

To be honest that isn't really important, this thread is for troop trees.  Please everyon - look at the 2 posted troop trees and comment on them..OR, think of new ways to go about making the troop trees.  I want realism and history accuracy, but I also desperately seek 'variety' between factions.  having 13 or whatever factions with basically the same troop tree but with the odd different weapon doesn't mean ANYTHING whatsoever.  Its just 1 meal on a table duplicated ltos of times.  Now you might enjoy that since it covers history..but I'm more into infantry..tracking...hunting, cavalry - i'm into more of a variation of styles.

Also, we can add in formations later on so that both the enemy and the player use their horses in a more 'organised' and 'fashionable' way.  Since right now the enemy ai basically makes you run around a map for 10 mins shooting the last steppe bandits.  xD its chaotic warfare, which isn't going to be a good thing for people.  So we need to fix it by adding in counter balances so that other units are introduced as well, make edits to horses if need be.

The whole thing needs fixing..and we need more variants.