Subuatai - Historical Accuracy

Kazakh Khanate asking Russian Empire for help and joining it

Then Russians didn't do anything to solve the case. And when Qing China destroyed Dzunghar khanate, the remaining Dzunghars fled to Russia to seek refuge. They were accepted.

Hmm...

Yes its a sad history, civil war was the only form of unity known to nomads. "I against my brother, I and my brother against my cousin, I, my brother and my cousin against the world". However when a leader fails in uniting the tribes (proves himself not strong enough), it only weakens the nations of the steppes as a whole, and makes easier foreign colonisation. Amir Temur of the Ilkhanids and his brutal rise to power (by destroying pretty much all the Turco-Mongol Khanates left trying to reforge the empire), and death - is pretty much the turning point of Altaic history, and the beginning of the rise of new powers.

Well the Cossacks were very smart, sold cannons to the Dzungars, yet offered help to the Kazakhs. I'm also of Cossack blood btw, 1/4 Tatar descendant . Of course us Tatars look Slavic now but not all have forgotten our roots . Cossack/Kazakh = Altaic word; "Free". 14th century, Cossacks were Altaic, 16th century onwards, well can't say we look traditional Altaic anymore. I'm still unsure whether the 16th+ century Cossacks were Slavs or Tatars, they look Slavic (then again so does my grandmother and her family), born in Russia (then again so were Altaics), with Russian names (then again so do almost all ethnics in Russia nowadays), and Russian identity (unfortunately, so does most Tatars now )

And no, we Cossacks were not Russian by identity in history, we were separate, and only served the Czars by expanding into Siberia because we saw that it was in our best interest for the protection of our people, families and lands from the eastern powers. However I don't think our ancestors realized the territories we conquered would end up being claimed by the Czars in the end. Funny how the Han Chinese did the same thing inheriting the lands from the Manchu (once nomadic) people.

Ne ways Dzungars didn't flee to Russia, 1) they suffered smallpox epidemic 2) many were exterminated by a joint Mongol/Manchu expedition led by a Mongol/Manchu prince. Yes genocide isnt the way of the steppes but yellow-sect Buddhism decreed that the Dzungars (who looted and defiled Buddhist temples during the invasion of Mongolia) were infidels and had to be wiped out. 3) Kalmyks migrated to Kalmykia evicting the native Turks in the caucasus region and had their own independent little state for a while -> fighting against Muslim Turks -> only to be backstabbed when the Khaan died.

well the language is almost same only Turkic is been different by the mixed race, the Mongolian have the pour original Altaic language

Cossacks are descendants of Scythians.

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Wrong. My mother is Ural Cossack, I've asked this from her plenty of times and she says that it is not true.

That's Russian brainwashery

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http://eeuropeanhistory.suite101.com/article.cfm/scythians___a_mysterious_history

http://sikhpioneers.org/scyth_1.html

M@ster-$ said:

That's Russian brainwashery

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Just what I thought you would've answered. And by the way, I live in Finland.

E: The cossacks are originally russian peasants that ran away because of persecution from post-mongolian khanates around the Golden Horde.

Cossacks are fairly superior to feeble peasants in horse riding and combat.

M@ster-$ said:

Cossacks are fairly superior to feeble peasants in horse riding and combat.

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Its quite pathetic to compare things like that. The cossacks had to buy and get their weapon arsenal and clothes by themselves. The russian czar decided to make the cossacks sort of a police force for the Russian Empire and to support their families and for compensation of their lands, they had to participate in battles. You shouldnt believe everything the interet says, the cossacks are not descendants of scythians.

You should ask real Cossack in Ukraine. He'll tell you that my point is right.

M@ster-$ said:

You should ask real Cossack in Ukraine. He'll tell you that my point is right.

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Cossacks in Ukraine and cossacks in Ural are a very different thing.

Just type Cossacks and read them in wikipedia, it'll tell you your answers..now stop debating over the origin of the Cossack unit (since sources point to russia, lithuania, ukraine and everywhere else) in a Mongol mod.

We aren't using Cossacks so why argue over it....is this a Russian/Cossack.Ukraine mod...NO.

>.>

Debates over any subjects not related to Mongol or other Mongol mods should be posted in the new Debate Thread.

@Master

Cossacks were Scythians? 
I can't say I agree with that. Scythians are an Indo-Aryan (Iranic) people (at least with linguistic evidence), unless of course you support some claims especially the Turkic "Sun Theory".

Cossack roots are undoubtedly from Altaic stock beginning in the 14th century, not Iranic, and not Slavic. However, it was at core a military society, not an ethnicity. From the 16th century onwards up to 18th century, Tatar blood definitely became merged with the Slavic majority. Past cossacks have always been seperate from the Czars, and we should have had our own nation Kazakia (Yes yes, it sounds too much like Kazakhstan but  its history).

Ne ways Russian and Soviet russification does make this a sensitive issue to discuss. If you are interested you may wish to study into the roots of Cossacks but remember this fact while doing this study; nationality does not equal ethnicity. It's sad though nowadays, modern descendants of Cossacks have forgotten how our ancestor struggled for independence and seperatism, and now pathetically sing "hail mother Russia." Pfft, good thing I'm not born in Russia, cause I would probably end up as one of them.

NOTE: Also what is sometimes confusing is that my grandmother taught me that my ancestors were Tatar Cossacks, also heirs of the Ulus of Jochi, and she believes us to be Mongols. However, from what I've read externally, Tatars are Turkic. So it's a straight out contradiction. I've also met some Polish and Lithuanians who also say they have Tatar ancestry, but consider themselves Mongols, not Turks. However, it is also very possible that with early Czarist vocabulary having been applied through russification the word "Mongol" became traditionally accepted to represent the Altaic people.

Ne ways sorry, where were we, yes Mongol Mod

A question!

Temujin himself was noted in Chinese descriptions of him, for his tall stature and heavy beard. [Günther (1934) 185.] We should also note the following depiction of Temujin's appearance, as given by Harold Lamb, in his biography of the great Khan:

"He must have been tall, with high shoulders, his skin a whitish tan. His eyes, set far apart under a sloping forehead, did not slant. And his eyes were green, or blue-grey in the iris, with black pupils. Long reddish-brown hair fell in braids to his back." [Lamb (192 23.]

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Muslim historian Rashid al-Din, foremost contemporary historian on Genghis Khan, recorded in his "Chronicles" that Genghis was tall, long-bearded, red-haired, and green-eyed. According to other first hand accounts recorded by al-Din, from sources as widespread as Marco Polo to Zhao Hong, Genghis's family was noted in particular for its propensity in producing various shades of red hair. Rashid al-Din also described the first meeting of Genghis and Kublai Khan, when Genghis was shocked to find Kublai had not inherited his red hair.

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Genghis Khan was rumored to have carried red hair and green eyes. Paul Ratchnevsky quoted the contemporary Chinese Zhao Hong as saying that Genghis Khan differed from Tartars in that he was tall and had long beard, and quoted Marco Polo as saying that Khubilai did have black hair but fair complexion 'ringed with red'. Rashid ad-Din, in 'Collected Chronicles', said that Genghis Khan was amazed to see that Khubilai had black hair while the rest of their family had red hair and said his grandson must have taken 'his old uncles' features.

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Yes, what's new amongst Mongols? We've always been like this in ancient times I believe, we are Altaics. Though unfortunately, due to intermixing in a way we are also losing our blood over the course of generations. Pureblood Ainus in Japan are very few too as well. So YES - it's quite possible . I'm from mixed blood myself but I've seen purebloods with much lighter features then me. You won't find any caucasiod ancestry whatsoever in these people below:

Purebloods:



Photos:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_wYPb-L1BBRs/SUIVmlZMQ_I/AAAAAAAAAPs/yMufv5cyot4/s1600-h/ortaimongol6.jpg
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_wYPb-L1BBRs/SUIViRzl7AI/AAAAAAAAAPk/Z7Hl4jMn3O4/s1600-h/oiratmongol5.jpg
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_wYPb-L1BBRs/SUIVeAyoRqI/AAAAAAAAAPc/6H9kdSW-4qo/s1600-h/oiratmongol4.jpg
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_wYPb-L1BBRs/SUIVY-NknbI/AAAAAAAAAPU/4A0qKRESDIs/s1600-h/oiratmongol3.jpg
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_wYPb-L1BBRs/SUIVSXjoytI/AAAAAAAAAPM/-4f1rke0nmg/s1600-h/oiratmongol2.jpg
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_wYPb-L1BBRs/SUIVMGhjxvI/AAAAAAAAAPE/t6n2VF3uNPI/s1600-h/oiratmongol.jpg

From: http://thetincocoon.blogspot.com/2008/12/oirat-mongols.html

Youtube Video (Mongolian girlband, yes her hair is natural ) :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ryDLa9XwzM&feature=related

Ne ways thats why the old classifications of race never applied to us, reason why I chose to study anthropology instead of racialism as well. We are Altaics, and no, traditionally we are never part of the Indo-European races. Turks have mixed with Indo-Aryan (Darker skinned Iranics) peoples yes, then Hellenic (I.E.) and Semitic tribes. But who cares, a nomadic society like ours with our diverse looking people don't have a word for 'race'. That's for the sedentary people

Our features tend to be robust, but still Altaic - Mongolic, with our head structure

EDIT: Why can't I post more then 1 image at a time?! 

Blonde Asian, 'tis wow!

BTW, Aryans are blond. And so are Proto-Indo-Europeans.

Nope Aryans = not blond, 2 definitions of Aryans:

1) Stupid Hitler's definition (Nordic blondes )
2) Iranic-speaking people, much darker skinned then Indo-Europeans

IEs are blonde, IE and IA aren't the same - unless you believe in Hitler's Aryanism. Iran = Land of the Aryans. They are Persians, not European.
In the end we can still spot a mixed Altaic with blond hair and a non-mixed Altaic with blond hair; the cheekbones

Those are pseudoscientific quotes and very outdated, especially in regards to Aryan migrations from Persia to Europe. And, it's wikipedia! 

Personally I don't trust this theory, but then again, my anthropological studies are mostly in my own people Maybe it could have been researched further if it wasn't for Hitler and his racialist theories making people nervous when the word "Aryan" is brought up -> and anthropologists included. We'll see what happens to this theory a few years down the track

Yeah, Hitler simply ruined the image of concept

I bet, Max Müller didn't expect that...