Hiding Behind a Pavise Shield.

Users who are viewing this thread

Historically, crossbowmen planted large pavises shields to protect against enemy fire. There are numerous examples of elite crossbowmen using these tactics: one example is the famous Genoese Crossbowmen. The Rhodok faction in M&B is quite reminiscent of the Italian city-states, and their crossbow line wields large pavise shields. However, in M&B, these pavise shields are not used to their full potential; currently, crossbowmen merely keep them on their back, rather than using them in accordance to historical tactics.

Here's a picture of a crossbowman utilising his pavise shield.
Balestriere1.jpg


What effects will this have on the game?
The main disadvantage of the crossbow is the slow firing rate. Historically, pavise shields were used to make up for this disadvantage.
Adding pavise shields will add a sense of historical authenticity, as well as a sense of much-needed uniqueness to the Rhodok faction.
Proper pavises go along perfectly with the Rhodok faction; it is indisputable that the Rhodoks are a defensive faction, with their large shields, long polearms, and crossbows. Pavises will simply add to the flavor.
Of course, the player will also be able to use this ability as well; it would be a quite useful tactic for crossbow users.

One argument presented is that this will unbalance the game; this is simply not true.
Though the pavise provides protection against enemy fire, it does not provide total protection. A crossbowman will still have to expose himself in order to fire his weapon, and it still does not counter the fact that the crossbow has a slow firing rate. At the moment, the Rhodoks are one of the weakest factions. Their infantry troops are sub-par compared to Swadian Sergeants, Vaegir Guards, and Nord Huscarls. (based on numerous tests) They also lack a heavy cavalry line such as Swadian or Vaegir Knights and Khergit Lancers. It is my belief that adding pavises will only act to balance the Rhodok faction.

How will this be implemented?
Some good ideas are:
1. When any crossbowmen with pavises stand still (with the hold position or stand ground commands), they will ground their pavises . When the crossbowmen start moving, they will pick up their shields and move.

2. A special command used to ground/unground the pavises. The AI will also use this when assaulting with a siege tower, or when using the "slow advance" or defensive field tactics.
 
I hugely agree - this will add a large dimension to the game. I recall deserted Swadian Sharpshooters being enough hassle in .751, this will really challenge the player to think creatively - especially if they are mixed with infantry also.

 
Big thumbs up.

Even if it weren't possible or expeditious to incorporate a "prop up the shield while reloading" element, they should at least be able to turn their backs to the enemy while reloading and have the shield offer protection that way.

Cheers.
 
Exactly what I was thinking. Rhodok Crossbowmen would be protected by their pavises and their spear-wielding infantry. It is both historically accurate, and it would introduce some new challenges to fighting crossbowmen.
We also need Rhodok lords to effectively use tactics as well.


I may be pushing it, but I'm hoping this gets put in the King's court, as so it doesn't get lost in a pile of other stuff in one single day.
 
Indeed.  Currently I don't think the shields on the Rhodok crossbowmen accomplish anything other than aesthetics, because they don't use them in melee (from what I remember).  Given the huge defense benefit the shields historically provided, it would be ludicrous for the Rhodoks not to take advantage of this, and fiddling with the reloading animation so that the shields face the enemy during reloading probably wouldn't be terribly difficult.  Rigging it so the shields can get propped up full time might be too much in such a short time--it would require accounting for things like "what if horses run the shields over" (answer: they become battlefield items), etc.  But the protective and tactical value of those board shields definitely needs to come into play one way or the other.

Cheers.
 
Actually, Landwalker, the crossbowmen currently do use the shields in melee.

Definitely. I think the shields should be propped up full time, and when ordering the crossbowmen to move, they'll pick up their shields and move.

If the shields get knocked over by a cavalry charge, the crossbowmen will use them in melee.
 
Fei Dao said:
Actually, Landwalker, the crossbowmen currently do use the shields in melee.

Ah, my mistake.  I couldn't (well, still can't) check, what with being at work, and seemed to remember them using two-handed axes.  Glad to know I'm either mistaken or insane.  :wink:

Cheers.
 
Either way, we want crossbowmen to use their pavises as cover like they are used historically. Right?
We need more people to come into this thread and say they agree.

King's court please
 
Fei Dao said:
Either way, we want crossbowmen to use their pavises as cover like they are used historically. Right?
We need more people to come into this thread and say they agree.

King's court please

Damn straight.

Cheers.
 
Well as it is already, the khergits have the ONLY unique feature to them... A line breaker formation. They take a long arch path to get to you, striking your line from the sides. Why not have rhodoks hide behind shields (only, the player can get access to this when, and only when, he joins the rhodoks or swadians, or maybe just those types of troops do that only) not to mention this would work wonders for mods
 
No, Damien.

I don't want any limiters like that. Any crossbowman (including mercenary crossbowmen) with a large shield should be able to hide behind it.

The reason why I want my crossbowmen to hide behind their pavises is because that's what they did historically, and why else would they have pavises?
 
Tankai said:
Were pavise shields used in melee historicaly?

I believe so.  I've read and seen in a few places that pavises, though mostly associated with archers and crossbowmen, were also used by other (i.e. melee) infantry.  I know they were used be spearmen, and may have been used by other infantry as well.  Obviously melee infantry wouldn't just prop the shield up on the ground, but actually carry it.

Cheers.
 
Tankai said:
Were pavise shields used in melee historicaly?

Agreed, only to the shield coverage thing, for now.

The smaller hand-pavise versions were used in melee
http://pics.myarmoury.com/view.html?pavise01b.jpg#

I like the deployable shields idea but the game mechanics must be tweaked to see any real advantage of this, most of the time (in the game) cavalry can run down crossbowmen without problems which was not THAT easy in the real battles, the hussites first aimed for the horses and just then aimed for the dehorsed riders, they used this tactic with a great effect.

The crossbows in M&B are not realistic, they need a rather big boost in damage so ~2 bolts should take down any horse (especially light khergit ones), 10 knights should NOT win against 40 crossbowmen because they should get dehorsed even before they reach the archers and the riders (and ANYONE else) should die from 1-2 bolts.

Of course this should hinder the gameplay to the point where its no fun anymore since a lot of player like the knights-pawns-all setup so the crossbows will remain weaker in the game than they where in the real world and the deployed shields will always get runned down by the enemy :razz:
 
This is a really cool idea in theory. I do however question the complexity of it in practical terms considering the relative simplicity of the current combat model and AI.
 
cfnz said:
This is a really cool idea in theory. I do however question the complexity of it in practical terms considering the relative simplicity of the current combat model and AI.
Just make it a forced action when your pavise shield is currently equipped to be drawn with melee when using a crossbow
 
A simple way to do it is that if you have a pavise shield and a crossbow, you will ground the shield when you pull out the crossbow, when you switch weapons, you'll pick up the shield. If you move a certain distance away from the shield, you'll pick it up. when you stop moving, you'll ground it again.

If you can think of a better way, then whatever.
 
I mean, we need SOMEONE to demonstrate the french, dontcha think? The Rhodoks are doing it pretty good right now, ya?
 
Back
Top Bottom