Techniques for a spearman on defeating a shield-bearing warrior?

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GraaEminense said:
Kamamura said:
Once the swordsman gets past the spear tip, the spearman's chances are slim. That's why landsknecht pikemen carried also a katzbalger as a secondary weapon.
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Spears and pikes are very different animals, though. A pike is usually too long and unwieldy to use close-up, while a spear shorter than, say, 230cm can quite easily be used as a staff and threaten both toes and head on the swordsman by hitting with both ends.
Not optimal, and maybe not enough to stop a decently skilled opponent with sword and shield, but far more viable than doing the same with a pike.
Secondary weapons would probably be a better idea though.
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... assumed that you are fighting a drunken-monkey-style duel on an empty marketplace against the Black Lotus ninja clan.

In a formation and in a battle, that's another thing. That's why spear was initially the weapon of the poorer warriors, while nobility carried swords - both expensive  and efficient trademarks of their social class.
 
Not it a tight formation, agreed. Certainly not in a proper pike formation. But given that a swordsman is able to rush a spearman without being stabbed in the face by someone else, it is reasonable to assume that formations are no longer that close.
Formation against formation is a different discussion than spear vs shield.
 
Landsknechts had special class of soldiers called "Doppel-soldner" (because they earned twice as much as normal soldiers), who wielded those two-handed flamberge and were in charge of penetrating the pike formations. Once successful, other swordsmen followed into the breach. They were the lands-knecht elite, fascinating stuff.
 
In a formation and in a battle, that's another thing. That's why spear was initially the weapon of the poorer warriors, while nobility carried swords - both expensive  and efficient trademarks of their social class.
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er... no.

Spears were from the start used by all classes, and notably praised as "the weapon of the warrior" in Ancient Greece. The "nobility", usually being cavalry in many parts of the world, naturally used spears as the primary arm, both when mounted and on feet. The relative scarcity of the sword, and its mystical and iconic values obtained since the bronze ages, signified it as a symbol of martial prowess, but the spear was never, ever a "weapon of the poorer warriors", nor was it treated as one.


In the case of combat, it differed according to the conditions of the battle, type of armour used, type of weapons used and etc., but some things to point out should be; 1) "slipping around the tip" wasn't exactly an easy thing to achieve, as when out of formation, spearmen themselves achieve mobility, and, 2) spears could also be used in a variety of ways, either with a shield or without it.

Also, by the time of the pikes and lances, the spears themselves evolved into different directions according to role, and some specialized forms obtained status as a polearm, most notably the bill. Hooking on to the shielded opponent's leg, and tripping him over, and then just simply pounding down at the fallen opponent was one of the many tactics used. In case of Japan, the ashigaru actually pretty much regularly used the long pike as a smashing weapon, by simply swing it downwards vertically.

In other cases, spearmen also carried multiple types of spears to disable the shield - the Romans weren't the only ones who used javelins or throwing spears to disable enemy shields.


 
Landsknechts had special class of soldiers called "Doppel-soldner" (because they earned twice as much as normal soldiers), who wielded those two-handed flamberge and were in charge of penetrating the pike formations. Once successful, other swordsmen followed into the breach. They were the lands-knecht elite, fascinating stuff.
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Actually, the whole point of the doppelsoeldners, is that they were considered a small band of elites, used to guard key positions or people, hence the double payment. Their role of shocktroops are farely exaggerated in many cases, most notably among reenactors, but consider this opinion:


The Battle of Pavia (1525) really was the zenith for the Zwiehander, and by the 1560's they were fairly well gone, except for as Parade pieces, and there is a similar ebb in two handed swords overall (the Zwiehander usually being associated with a specific *design* of these class of weapons, specifically having the flukes above the ricasso, and more developed quillons and port rings).

As far as *where* the Zwiehander specifically, (and the two handed sword in General), is deployed, many Landsknecht re-enactors describe the Doppelsoldier armed with Zwiehanders as "shock troops". This does not appear do be the case.
Most often they are deployed with Halberdiers to guard the Ensign, or flag-bearer. They are usually placed in the center of the formation, so are a last-ditch defence for the Captain and Flag. They *can* get used in the manner described (charging down the pike ranks), but since their numbers are so small (1/2-1% of the Soldiers), it's not their normal task, to be sure.

As I have little contemporary written evidence, I can only judge by a few snippets of text, and then the contemporary pictorial evidence:

'Giacomo DiGrassi, His True Art Of Defence'
Translated By I.G., 1594

"The two hand Sword, as it is used now a daies being fower handfulls in the handle, or more, having also the great crosse, was found out, to the end it should be handled one to one at an equall match, as other weapons, of which I have in treated. But because one may with it (as a galleon, among many gallies) resist many Swordes, or other weapons: Therefore in the warres, it is used to be placed neere unto the Ensigne or Auncient, for the defence thereof, because, being of it selfe hable to contend with manie, it may the better safeguard the same."


'Certain Discourses Concerning Formes And Effects Of Weapons'
Sir John Smythe, 1590.

(In reference to how the Imperial forces are drawn up)

"When the great Princes of Germanie...are disposed to make warre...being bound (as they are) by their tenure Militarie to the Empire, some to find horsemen, and others to finde footmen at their own charges...form their regiments of footmen into great bands of 500 to an Ensigne... ...their milicia consisting of Harquebuziers, Piquers, and some Halbarders, with a few slath swords for the gard of their Ensignes..."

('Slath' sword is a euphemism for a two handed sword. I recently acquired a Catalog from the Landeshaus Graz that was printed in the 60's, and two of their two-handed blades are described as something like 'slather schwert' (sp? I'll dig up the book later)

quoted from: http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=4221
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Truth or fiction? May the reader decide.


 
Here is a good "Live Steel" spear vs. sword video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lpfv_VMaynQ

The spearman uses winged spear, and keeps the swordsman at distance. Spearman manages to slash the swordsman right arm once or twice, and finishes the the swordsman with trip-takedown using the spear wing-lug.

The spearman uses just basic attacks, and does not even try to make face jabs (for safety reasons). The "leading left foot" -stance keeps the slung shield so that the right-handed swordsman has smaller target area.

Spears are rarely used in live steel fights, since the weapon is much too dangerous. A blunted spear can be driven though helmet visor, and a power thrust (lunge and retreat with two-handed grip) at chest or abdomen can kill an armored man due to internal organ ruptures even if the armor was not penetrated.

Another video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1dPYEH1D-G4

This is pretty much what we do in our Dojo, except that during our practice sessions everyone must wear full Kendo armor and shin guards. You can easily recognize from these "Speerkampf Sparring" -videos who of the fighters know what they are doing. Beginners use flashy moves, while good fighters use simple basic attacks, but do them with speed and accuracy.
 
Thanks for the excellent footage Farmind.

Although many reenactments can simply be staged to show whatever the results desired, the footage does vividly show some of the points I've been trying to describe with words in the previous postings.


1) "Slipping past the point", is not a simple thing, and the advantage of distance can be incredibly difficult to overcome at times.

When a spearman is outside of his formation, he is no longer bound by the duties of the group. The spearman himself gains mobility, and any attempts of the swordman to close-in, can as much simply be countered by moving, and retracting spear positions as needed. Often the spear is a considerably lighter mode of armament, than a man with a large (and cumbersome) shield and a sword.

People often imagine, that all the swordman has to do is evade one deep thrust, and then immediately close the distance and the spearman would be helpless. Clearly untrue, as portrayed in the footage.


2) Many people assume that since the spear is long, it would be cumbersome, slow, and unflexible in tactics. At the same time, they assume the sword is shorter, faster, more elegant in maneuvers, and would be easier to wield. However, that is not necessarily true.


3) The shield, as seen in the footage, can be used against the wielder. For this specific reason as depicted in the footage, the Romans preferred a shorter sword, and simplified their sword-tactics to stabbing, rather than slashing. The spearman in the footage, when the swordman does manage to close in, actually sticks himself to the shield and uses it to hide behind it - the shield, works both ways. The longer the sword in one hand, the more difficult to effectively get around his own shield and stab the spearman hiding behind it. Effectively, this is the same thing as clinching in boxing.


4) And finally, the "hooking, tripping, and stabbing". There are more ways to use the spear than just thrust.


Once again, thanks for the interesting footage.
 
Farmind said:
Here is a good "Live Steel" spear vs. sword video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lpfv_VMaynQ

The spearman uses winged spear, and keeps the swordsman at distance. Spearman manages to slash the swordsman right arm once or twice, and finishes the the swordsman with trip-takedown using the spear wing-lug.

The spearman uses just basic attacks, and does not even try to make face jabs (for safety reasons). The "leading left foot" -stance keeps the slung shield so that the right-handed swordsman has smaller target area.

Spears are rarely used in live steel fights, since the weapon is much too dangerous. A blunted spear can be driven though helmet visor, and a power thrust (lunge and retreat with two-handed grip) at chest or abdomen can kill an armored man due to internal organ ruptures even if the armor was not penetrated.

Another video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1dPYEH1D-G4

This is pretty much what we do in our Dojo, except that during our practice sessions everyone must wear full Kendo armor and shin guards. You can easily recognize from these "Speerkampf Sparring" -videos who of the fighters know what they are doing. Beginners use flashy moves, while good fighters use simple basic attacks, but do them with speed and accuracy.
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Take my word on it - the video is horrible. It's no way related to actual sword or spear technique.

That guy with the "sword" moves like a horse, he does not know how to stand, how to block, how to cut, it's just another homemade "me and my brother playing knights".

Actually, the best source may be movies with guys like Jet-li, they show some real moves, but it's eastern stuff. Rob Roy the movie had some nice fencing footage.

But this - this is pure attrocity.
 
That guy with the "sword" moves like a horse, he does not know how to stand, how to block, how to cut, it's just another homemade "me and my brother playing knights".
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In real life, unlike fiction, the shield, the sword, the armour all has something we call "weight". It is true that in many cases, this "weight factor" is greatly exaggerated, to the point of producing the myth, "a fallen full-plate is helpless and cannot get up by himself", or "full-plate armour needs a crane to help them mount them on a horse".

HOWEVER, constant paced movement in full armoured attire, bearing weapons and shields in the heat of combat is an extremely tiring business. Professional boxers, who usually fight half-naked, train for many months with regular roadworking to try and build stamina for 4/6/12 rounds of 3 minute bouts with periodical resting periods, and most of them show clear signs of fatigue within the first three rounds. MMA bouts usually have two 5 minute rounds or three 3 minute rounds of fighting, and you can clearly observe how fatugued the fighters are after just the first round.

Case being the point, actual fights are SIMPLE, not fancy. They are kept simple because real fights take in a very serious risk-to-reward ratio, and instead of taking risks doing fancy maneuvers or techniques, fighters tend to keep things in a minimalist approach. You may see all sorts of fancy swordsmanship, or various "styles" of combat in demonstrations and training exercises, but when things boild down to a real fight, everything converges down to simplicity. If one may ask me, personally I think both the spearman and the swordsman in the footage were moving and fighting a bit too 'fancy'.



Actually, the best source may be movies with guys like Jet-li, they show some real moves
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On this, words fail me.... I know not where to start.





 
Kamamura said:
Actually, the best source may be movies with guys like Jet-li, they show some real moves, but it's eastern stuff. Rob Roy the movie had some nice fencing footage.
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I would prefer not use oriental martial arts movies as reference for fighting methods. The movies scenes are performed used "Peking Opera Style", which was developed for theatrical fighting. The same style is now adapted to movies, and includes too much "Flying People, Hidden Wires" (aka. "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon") -like features.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peking_Opera_School

Much better source for oriental spear-fighting methods is to check the training seminar videos made by Masaaki Hatsumi.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masaaki_Hatsumi

There are some short clips available in youtube, but the original videos are 45 min - 90 min long. The most relevant videos are "Yarijutsu", "Naginata, Nagamaki, Bisento" and "Bojutsu".

(Nostalgia moment. These were new and hot stuff when I first started kobudo.)

The original videos are had to come by, but they are apparently floating around in P2P networks. While the videos are old, fighting techniques have not changed much. There is not much sparring, but Masaaki Hatsumi is trying to tell how and why the techniques are used.

During kendo lessons we we have recently started to do some practices with spears and naginatas. These are new and refreshing additions to kendo training, but there are currently too few teachers who can properly teach to use them.
 
Farmind said:
Here is a good "Live Steel" spear vs. sword video..
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Blimey! Spearmen DO run backwards!
It's kinda funny to watch after playing M&B (should've been the other way around, no?).
 
Why do you want to make a battle hard?
just sparta-kick the swordsman to the ground and impale him  :lol:
easy and unexpected :smile:
 
Here in Czech, something called "historical fencing" has a long tradition, many people practice with metal replicas, not these funny plastic things. I have been in the business for some years, I even taught sword in one small group. That was 10 years ago, however.

I don't say that I am an expert on the subject, but I have trained with some experienced guys here, and I had a lot of practice.

But you can trust me - the way that guy stands, the way he "pushes" against the spear in a childlike motion (proper batuta is something completely different), his lack of polished foot work (that horrible horse-like motion - the center of mass must stay in one height all the time!), it's all more of a parody. Really, a swordsman moves in a completely different manner.

I recommended Jet-li because even if the movies do not represent realistic way of how armed encounters would look in reality, that guy has trained body, knows how to move and knows how to handle weapons. Sure, nuances are different, but cut is cut, thrust is thrust.

Or better yet, find some old Kurosawa movie like Seven Samurai or Yojimbo and look at the actors how they move, how they hold the weapons, how they cut. It was all before the era of special effects, these guys are all competent swordsmen.

But this video - please, no.
 
while I agree that the guy in the video moves slowly and not very efficiently, I wouldn't talk much about czech swordfighting groups. Even today, most of them still teach movie-like fencing with edge on edge blocks and parries. And honestly, very few of our groups are even good performers so it's entertaining to watch. Except Magisterium and a few others who actually teach techniques from fencing manuals.

Still, if you look at the videos I posted some posts back, they're a good (imho) example of how standard soldiers would fight. Not masters, not trained killers, but they've done some fighting with the weapons and the quality is better than in the video Kamamura dislikes.
 
13 Spider Bloody Chain said:
After watching youtube vids of mock-duels where a spear-and-shieldman was rendered worthless by a cheap shield, I have to wonder how the average spearman was expected to defeat someone equipped with a decent-sized (that is, covering most or all of the upper torso) shield.

Any spear-wielding martial artists around?
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you poke him 'till he dies
 
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