About balance (archers now strongest and what we can do)

After reading, do you agree?

  • Yes, good idea

    Votes: 5 27.8%
  • Yes, but not for all

    Votes: 3 16.7%
  • No, archers now not overpowered

    Votes: 4 22.2%
  • Only make Archers weaker

    Votes: 6 33.3%

  • Total voters
    18

Users who are viewing this thread

This is google translate. Original in russian language in spoiler at the bottom of the message.

There is a serious imbalance in the current version of the game in captain mode. Everyone chooses shooters archers and crossbowmen. This is due to the current strength of the units. The fact is that 1 infantry unit with shields against one unit of archers can win. But if we consider the battle at least 2 by 2, then the archers simply will not allow the infantry to approach without loss due to crossfire. And in this case, the archers will win.
You can recall the infantry without shields, but in matches where 90% of the units are archers, they are generally unsuitable for battle.
Of course, the cavalry can even out the balance, but now it is also hopelessly losing to archers, having lost most of the riders and horses only at the stage of rapprochement, and in terms of number in the detachment it has no chance at all not only against archers, but also against infantry, which doesn’t even armed with spears, about the spearmen I am generally silent, they destroy the cavalry without loss.
What can be suggested for balance? Firstly, the units now have auto-detection, even if you sneak up to the archers from behind and silently, they will still shoot at you at the stage of direct vision. This cancels the trick, the strategy of striking in the rear (except for the moments when archers are connected by close combat with the enemy). It is necessary that bots do not attack enemies that are behind without turning in their direction at long distances. Secondly, it is necessary to strengthen the cavalry to be able to inflict at least some damage on both archers and infantry without spears. The main thing is to increase the number of riders to the number of infantry. 15 heavy, and 18-20 light cavalrymen in the detachment. Reduce the influence of archers against cavalry by simply shooting horses. To do this, raise the number of lives of horses and their armor. Let the archers shoot at the riders, not anywhere. Strengthen the ability to at least somehow kill both archers and infantry by raising the attack power of the ram with horses and the spear strike multiplier. Now, even having overtaken archers and infantry from behind, the damage to the spears is small, and in return they receive several blows from infantry and archers who will immediately kill the rider or horse.
And the very last moment is the attack power of the ax. The fact is that infantry with heavy armor and axes simply destroys the infantry with heavy armor and swords or spears. It is necessary to strengthen the piercing attack of spears and swords. It is also advisable to increase the attack of throwing weapons. Now it is useless due to the small amount of equipment and the lack of significant damage.

P.S. What do these changes give?
Archers are good at resisting infantry without shields, otherwise they only deal damage to the rear. Weak against cavalry.
Cavalry is strong against archers, equivalent to infantry without spears, and much inferior to infantry with spears. Deals damage to spear units only to the rear.
Heavy armor is all the same adequately beaten with stabbing weapons: spears and pricks with swords.
Throwing weapons increase slightly in quantity or damage so that at least some damage can be inflicted. Now it is always more profitable to take a spear, shield, or reinforced armor.

Thank you for your attention and vote. I hope the developers will take into account our voices.

В текущей версии игры в режиме капитанов есть серьезный дисбаланс. Все выбирают стрелков лучников и арбалетчиков. Это связано с текущей силой отрядов. Дело в том, что 1 отряд пехоты со щитами против одно отряда лучников может выиграть. Но если рассматривать бой хотя-бы 2 на 2, тогда лучники просто не дадут пехоте сблизиться без потер из-за перекрестного огня. И в таком случае лучники будут побеждать.
Можно вспомнить еще о пехоте без щитов, но в матчах, где 90% отрядов – лучники, они вообще непригодны для боя.
Конечно, выровнять баланс может кавалерия, но она сейчас тоже безнадежно проигрывает и лучникам, потеряв большую часть всадников и коней только на этапе сближения, да и по количеству в отряде вообще не имеет шансов не только против лучников, но и против пехоты, которая даже не вооружена копьями, про копейщиков я вообще молчу, они уничтожают кавалерию без потерь.
Что можно предложить для баланса? Во-первых, сейчас у отрядов работает автообнаружение, даже если вы подкрадетесь к лучникам сзади и бесшумно, они все равно будут в вас стрелять на этапе прямого видения. Это отменяет хитрость, стратегию нанесения удара в тыл (кроме моментов, когда лучники связаны ближним боем с врагом). Необходимо, чтобы боты не атаковали врагов, находящихся сзади без поворота в их сторону на больших дистанциях. Во-вторых, необходимо усилить кавалерию для возможности нанесения хоть какого-то урона и лучникам, и пехоте без копий. Главное – увеличить количество всадников до количества пехоты. 15 тяжелых, и 18-20 легких кавалеристов в отряде. Уменьшить влияние лучников против кавалерии просто расстреливая лошадей. Для этого поднять количество жизней коням и их броню. Пусть лучники стреляют во всадников, а не куда попало. Усилить возможность хоть как-то убивать и лучников, и пехоту, подняв силу атаки тарана конями и множитель удара копьем на скаку. Сейчас, даже настигнув лучников и пехоту сзади урон копьям мал, а в ответ получают несколько ударов от пехоты и лучников, которые сразу убьют всадника или коня.
И самый последний момент – сила атаки топора. Дело в том, что пехота с тяжелой броней и топорами просто уничтожает пехоту с тяжелой броней и мечами или копьями. Необходимо усилить протыкающую атаку копий и мечей. А также желательно усилить атаку метательного оружия. Сейчас оно бесполезно из-за малого количества снаряжения и отсутствия значительного урона.

П.С. Что дают эти изменения?
Лучники хорошо противостоят пехоте без щитов, в противном случае наносят урон только в тыл. Слабы против конницы.
Конница сильна против лучников, равносильна пехоте без копий, сильно уступает пехоте с копьями. Наносит урон отрядам копейщиков только в тыл.
Тяжелая броня все-так адекватно прибивается колющим оружием: копьями и уколами мечами.
Метательное оружие немного увеличивается в количестве или уроне, чтобы можно было нанести хоть какой-то урон. Сейчас же всегда выгоднее взять копье, щит, или усиленную броню.
 
No valid poll options, so I didn't vote.  The post raises valid concerns about the over-performance of archers, but the proposed solutions have their own issues.  The options 1, 2, and 4 say that you agree with all or part of the proposed solution, which I don't.  The third options says that archers aren't a problem, which they are at present.  There is no "other solution" choice.
 
Honved said:
No valid poll options, so I didn't vote.  The post raises valid concerns about the over-performance of archers, but the proposed solutions have their own issues.  The options 1, 2, and 4 say that you agree with all or part of the proposed solution, which I don't.  The third options says that archers aren't a problem, which they are at present.  There is no "other solution" choice.

Write your answer option in the comment and it will be interesting to read the opinion
 
NepodarOK said:
The main thing is to increase the number of riders to the number of infantry. 15 heavy, and 18-20 light cavalrymen in the detachment.

This.

Archers were fine, and after the nerf in last patch they could even be considered weak. But full-archer teams will still be strong. That's not because they are overpowered. You need to nerf them to the bottom of the rock where they won't remember what archery is, in order to make full-archer teams uncapable.

Full-archer teams being strong isn't a problem about archers being overpowered. It's about cav was pathetic after that big nerf in few patches ago. I don't know how cav is doing in last patch, but in 3.4 we tried 6cav-6archer test twice, in first archers spread around, and in second test archers stand in one region. In both scenarios, cav has been removed pretty easily where they should have wipe archers out without any problem. We will test cav vs archer again after 4.0 patch hopefully, but i still don't think that cav will be worth taking unless their numbers increased.

Making horses more tanky is a thing, but it will also break the balance between spearmen-cav where it was pretty good balance between them before 4.0, arguably.
 
I suspect (but can't tell for certain because I'm not involved in the demo) that the increased ability of the archers to track a moving target has rendered cavalry too vulnerable.  Increasing the amount of cavalry fielded isn't an answer, it's a band-aid over the underlying problem, and will only result in more expensive armies and more cavalry deaths to both spears and bows.

The total inability to track a moving target was a problem in Warband, but giving the AI the ability to hit moving targets with the same reliably as stationary targets is equally unbalancing.  Hitting a moving target is difficult, so the aiming reticle should be significantly expanded as the archer tracks further ahead of the target.  That means, the arrows won't consistently fall behind the target as unrealistically as they do in Warband, but they won't unrealistically all be on target either, so moving faster will still provide SOME defense.  Reducing the situational awareness of troops against units behind them, although not to where they're as oblivious as in Warband, would also help.  There are probably other ways to reduce the ability of the archers against moving targets without making it nearly impossible to hit, but this seems to me to be the easiest to implement.
 
In my opinion, ranged classes are perfectly fine. People seems to have hard time understanding how to approach ranged troops. That is the problem in my opinion. I.e. Today we won with mixed army against full ranged army with big margin on the desert map.

Some classes can be further tweaked, sharpshooter should have its shield speed lowered imo.its after all, a heavy pavise shield.
 
Archers shooting so easily through shields is ridiculous, doing that in warband is indeed possible but it took an amazing amount of skill and luck too, now even average players plain murder an approaching infantryman. Archers would then use their speed and attempt to escape and fight somewhere else. Another thing is that even after the patch if you check this LeRoux video he can John Wick around the map and shoot easily while running around, which is quite ridiculous too
https://youtu.be/714MFHGcOII
On the other hand I don't really agree with OP point on cavalry. Cavalry was always an easy target for even average archers, if you're smart you would fight archers when there is only 1 archer, and only if he hasn't really noticed you, then you would have an actual chance. If you charge an archer alone you're not doing your cavalry job right
 
I played a bunch of captain and I think archers are in a good place. They shoot slower and are not quite as accurate but are still a viable option. If anything you could just add a couple troops to inf and cav but I personally feel the balance is close.
 
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