Question to those in the beta. What feels different compared to Warband, is the combat improved in some way?
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Differences to Warband
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What is it about the combat that makes people dislike it?
If you're registered on the forum you can see the combat part of the beta forum and read the feedback. As Younes said if you liked Warband combat there's a high chance you won't like Bannerlord combat.
Less about balance and more about that they have changed the fundamentals and the new fundamentals aren't fun.
aerendhil said:
Less about balance and more about that they have changed the fundamentals and the new fundamentals aren't fun.
Yes, thank you. I'll read that. I just applied to the beta a few days back, hope to test it for myself soon.
Alright, I've played a lot of the beta and I gotta say the combat isn't as bad as everyone is making it out to be, infantry feels much heavier and theres combos now(I won't go into if this is good or not), the largest issues atm is the balance between the new class system, currently archers are considered really strong in captain mode as of this patch. Please keep in mind that im going against what Younes & Shin say as I've been playing since mount and blade and warband was my life for some time and I'd recommend it to anyone who played warband to get this game as it's for sure improved on the last.
In terms of infantry combat it's fun, fluid and can be pretty intense in duels, weapons feel as if they have power behind them and stances make combat have a deeper system, characters feel heavier and the game feels less cheese than what warband was, you won't be seeing anymore half naked great sword users spinning around
In terms of infantry combat it's fun, fluid and can be pretty intense in duels, weapons feel as if they have power behind them and stances make combat have a deeper system, characters feel heavier and the game feels less cheese than what warband was, you won't be seeing anymore half naked great sword users spinning around
The multiplayer is not improved, its downgraded. I am a huge fan of games that gives freedom to the players.
Infantry is far from fun. Inconsistent weapons, overpowered stabs, the reach of your weapon for going a left or right swing makes people hit people behind them, Inconsistent shield stats, Stances and the list goes on.
The combat is terrible.
Infantry is far from fun. Inconsistent weapons, overpowered stabs, the reach of your weapon for going a left or right swing makes people hit people behind them, Inconsistent shield stats, Stances and the list goes on.
The combat is terrible.
Younes said:
Well a nice variety of opinions isn't a bad thing, I enjoy the combat and disagree with your opinion on it, hopefully the devs take on any constructive advice from the community to bridge the gap.
RitoDurito said:
What exactly do you enjoy about it?
Personally I prefer Bannerlords. The feel of the combat it more immersive and rewarding compared to Warbands. There is nothing sweeter than shooting a horse out from underneath a charging Caverly and watch the rider go flying into the dust. The feel and the weight of the weapons is on point. It's the same reason why I am such a fan of KillingFloor 2 because the weapons felt strong and so impactful and all-around fun to use and I think you will find that with Bannerlord aswell. But here is my main grief with Bannerlord. The combat feels "slow". The swing delay is constantly frustrating and is the biggest issue for the game so far. Combat needs to be fluid. There should be little to no delay between when I hit that button and when I swing my sword or block an attack, which can make the combat frustrating for newcomers and veterans of the series especially. However, it's manageable and can still be quite fun. To be honest you get used to it after a little while, which once you get used to you can have a ton of great duels. The more immediate issue is the balance between attack speeds, shield stats, cavalry in general, etc. All of those balancing issues will be worked out in time. After all, this is a closed beta and we still have an open beta on the way so Taleworlds still has plenty of time to iron out these things. In the end, I think people need to give it a chance and realize that it is not Warband. It will never be Warband because thats what Warband is for. Bannerlord is different... in a good way, it has its quirks the same as Warband and when you boil it down Bannerlord looks great, plays great and is all around fun and we still haven't gotten to try sieges yet so....
Don't take anything to heart just yet and when you get into the closed beta soon or at the least the open beta you can see for yourself.
Don't take anything to heart just yet and when you get into the closed beta soon or at the least the open beta you can see for yourself.
It's hard to agree with anything you're saying. Fundamentally all of the high-skill cap or difficult mechanics have been removed in favour of easy to execute low-skill cap mechanics. Feinting for example has been reduced heavily to being nearly useless. Your alternative now is combos. You can execute a combo by repeatedly pressing left click in any direction. Just spamming the mouse. No camera control, the game holds your hand and tells you which way you need to walk with the 'stances' so there's effectively no footwork to learn, no block release timing, no sound manipulation. You walk left and spam left click, wow, so engaging.
Your perfect combo executes and you feel absolutely no enjoyment from it.
TaleWorlds tells us stances, combos and the class system are staying. The Warband 'wheel' is feinting, holds, chambers, blocks. The Bannerlord 'wheel' is combos and range.
Your perfect combo executes and you feel absolutely no enjoyment from it.
TaleWorlds tells us stances, combos and the class system are staying. The Warband 'wheel' is feinting, holds, chambers, blocks. The Bannerlord 'wheel' is combos and range.
Okay so I agree with some of your points and disagree with others. I agree that combos are cheesy and make the combat feel bad mainly because I don’t know how to execute them well and I don’t see a well designed counter to them. But I disagree with stances, because while they do exist they are simply two different animations that play depending on the position your character is in when they attack based on whether their left or right foot is forward or not. I do not see how that give you a practical tactical advantage in duels. It’s not like you hit x to switch between stances that would give you +30 attack or defense.
However bare in mind that I see this through the simple eyes of a peon who only cares for single player. I understand that Warband multiplayer was the lifeblood of the community so your concerns are very valid, and I see how a veteran of Warband multiplayer would be disappointed by Bannerlord combat. Hopefully the devs will address your concerns before the full release. And if not their will no doubt be a Warband combat evolved mod for Bannerlord to correct this, but we still have a long time until the game even releases. Right now the deva are more concerned with getting the game out and with the single player no doubt.
So help me understand and other like me what these terms you mention mean for Warband combat and what they do so we can understand the views from a Warband multiplayer veterans viewpoint. Because no doubt the developers know this and chose not to include them for some reason or another. Because will the high skill level games are fun they do lower the barrier to entry drastically.
However bare in mind that I see this through the simple eyes of a peon who only cares for single player. I understand that Warband multiplayer was the lifeblood of the community so your concerns are very valid, and I see how a veteran of Warband multiplayer would be disappointed by Bannerlord combat. Hopefully the devs will address your concerns before the full release. And if not their will no doubt be a Warband combat evolved mod for Bannerlord to correct this, but we still have a long time until the game even releases. Right now the deva are more concerned with getting the game out and with the single player no doubt.
So help me understand and other like me what these terms you mention mean for Warband combat and what they do so we can understand the views from a Warband multiplayer veterans viewpoint. Because no doubt the developers know this and chose not to include them for some reason or another. Because will the high skill level games are fun they do lower the barrier to entry drastically.
Goldfire223 said:
You're misunderstanding stances, it is exactly how you describe that it is not. When you switch between using A to move and D to move (left/right) you will see your character swap the side of the body he holds the sword. We have been told the tight side increases damage and the loose side increases range. So, as you say, you hit x(a or d) and then get + damage(flat value) or + defense(range).
The reason that combos hamper the gameplay is because they are just high class spam feints that would have taken you hundreds/thousands of hours of practice to execute in Warband, particularly if you wanted to execute them with any level of smoothness that would actually deceive your opponent into thinking your first swing was the intended attack.
Why remove the two highest skill-cap and arguably highest barrier to entry mechanics? For exactly that reason, to lower the barrier to entry. TaleWorlds want to pander to a different audience, an audience that weren't fans of Warband combat or high level duel.
What they misunderstood from my point of view is that people LIKED the high barrier to entry. It was a very DIFFICULT game to play well and difficult to even play MP at all. That gave you a certain level of automatic kudos when playing against people who could identify good blocking, feints or footwork.
The important part for me is that the barrier never lasts. It is eventually broken down and you notice that the fundamentals of the Warband system are pristine; easily the best melee combat system we have ever had. Examine the graph below. TaleWorlds don't want this anymore, but Warband players do. We know even the absolute best fighters in the development team are noobs in Warband with less than a couple thousand of MP and not able to duel/battle high tier players. Why would we expect them to be at the 'grass is greener' portion of the graph? We can't.
They're stuck somewhere around 'Never ending fight' and think that the game needs more mechanics, alternative mechanics, different fundamentals. They're wrong and they don't want to listen.
Also thank you for your polite reply these discussions can sometimes get heated.
That picture specifically doesnt highlight alot of the things that warband actually offers combat wise in terms of competitive, dueling or even public play. The game is far more complex than most people believe untill they actually play it. It's a game that takes thousands of hours to even become near to anyone at the tops skill level. Bannerlord however, seems like you can play a few weeks and just s key and right click. Especially when its just an ice-skating competition.
shin said:[...]
Why remove the two highest skill-cap and arguably highest barrier to entry mechanics? For exactly that reason, to lower the barrier to entry. TaleWorlds want to pander to a different audience, an audience that weren't fans of Warband combat or high level duel.
What they misunderstood from my point of view is that people LIKED the high barrier to entry. It was a very DIFFICULT game to play well and difficult to even play MP at all. That gave you a certain level of automatic kudos when playing against people who could identify good blocking, feints or footwork.
The important part for me is that the barrier never lasts. It is eventually broken down and you notice that the fundamentals of the Warband system are pristine; easily the best melee combat system we have ever had. Examine the graph below. TaleWorlds don't want this anymore, but Warband players do. We know even the absolute best fighters in the development team are noobs in Warband with less than a couple thousand of MP and not able to duel/battle high tier players. Why would we expect them to be at the 'grass is greener' portion of the graph? We can't.
They're stuck somewhere around 'Never ending fight' and think that the game needs more mechanics, alternative mechanics, different fundamentals. They're wrong and they don't want to listen.
[...]
What you are basically saying here is that you think it is a good thing to design the game in a way that would exclude the majority of players (as seen in the graph), possibly even the developers themselves, from playing the game to its full potential, and having access to advanced techniques.
Think about this from the perspective of anybody else besides one of the elite MP players.
People aren't excluded because it is difficult. Anyone can practice and 'enjoy the game to its full potential' as you say? Everyone's idea of enjoying the game is different but surely if your only prequisite for fully enjoying the game is being good and mastering advanced techniques then surely you would want a harder barrier to entry? You're seemingly arguing against yourself.
It's the fact that any multiplayer game that has stood the test of time either requires big knowledge (MMO's, Card games) or hard to master mechanics (CSGO, DOTA, Starcraft)
Warband fit into the 'hard to master mechanics' side of things and that isn't a problem at all.
It's the fact that any multiplayer game that has stood the test of time either requires big knowledge (MMO's, Card games) or hard to master mechanics (CSGO, DOTA, Starcraft)
Warband fit into the 'hard to master mechanics' side of things and that isn't a problem at all.
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