[NC2019] Questions & Suggestions

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It's the exact same format as used during the WIS Kawaii, it has some obvious flaws but it's not like the seeding comes out of nowhere.

Talking with some people (mostly from my teams) it seems they prefer a regular format where the group stage is essentially extremely boring (with top 2 already determined in most groups) + likely boring quarter-finals resulting into stomps, but with the knockout stage making more sense as everyone is sort of at their places.

I'm not claiming one is better than the other, I have my preferences, but you can't really have both at the same time.  Really don't want to feel like I'm dismissing your critic of the format cause I know it's shared by many people.
 
I dont remember the wis system being like this. Maybe you got something mixed up or i just didnt pay attention back then.
I think this kind of tournament format is fine. Unlike other systems the groupstage actually matters. It's not a farce. We've had Formats in which you could literally predict all semifinals pretty much since the groups had x amount of good teams and rest fillers. Obviously upsets can happen.

The problem in the used system is that for whatever reason you consider the 1st seed of the division stronger than the last seed of the higher division. No system works like that. Due to the higher level of competition the last place of Division A should be considered stronger than the First place of Division B - by default. The tournament format should expect the div a playoff seeds to go trough to quarters, not the division b teams. Your System does it the other way around which leads to those weird matchups. Division B should not have a secured semifinal spot.

If you do it like this you do end up with more interesting and important groupstages AND (in theory - without upsets) stacked semifinals while quarterfinals are still somewhat competetive.

Since you seeded every team of the tournament based on rating this doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Every div a team is rated over ANY div b team. No idea why this concept gets ignored when it comes to the playoffs.

Im not pretending ive actually gone trough the rules beforehand. Literally saw this and wondered how those matchups can even happen.

// just checked you're right thats the wis system. Doesn't change that the system has a major ****up, i don't normally go over the format in detail so I didn't even notice.
 
Have to agree with Kawaii, I never checked the seeds before (I think I looked and the KO stage wasn't up until it was all decided, probably could've been avoided otherwise). It's been done totally wrong, The top placing teams ended up playing the harder matches in the playoffs, France should have played Argentina 3 and R&U should have played China. Then going into the Quarters there's no way BeNe and NA should've ended up against each other, they didn't even go through the playoffs, so you've simply had the top 2 from Group B play each other again. NA are now in the semi-finals without playing against a single Group A team, whilst 3 of Group A will be knocked out exclusively by other Group A teams.
 
HAHAHA what is this tournament I'm just seeing how you decided seeds: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1kreGxkSeuc7MY7l_dFKFHWrUG_x-byigqofm13YCS34/edit#gid=1661483830

how tf did you let several 2 and 3 votes for BeNe get counted

is noone remotely concerned that Watly tried to rig this tournament in favour of BeNe?

Good on NA at least for stomping them lol
 
I just made it back from work. I wanted to address some of the critics raised by OGL and Kawai (which actually make sense) before, but didn't find the time until now. Will try to formulate a proper answer asap. In the meantime, if we could avoid the 'omg Watly tried to rig the tournament' comments, that would help to focus on the real issues witnessed during the tournament.

Will also post the semi-final fixtures thread tonight.
 
HKP said:
I dont remember the wis system being like this. Maybe you got something mixed up or i just didnt pay attention back then.
I think this kind of tournament format is fine. Unlike other systems the groupstage actually matters. It's not a farce. We've had Formats in which you could literally predict all semifinals pretty much since the groups had x amount of good teams and rest fillers. Obviously upsets can happen.

The problem in the used system is that for whatever reason you consider the 1st seed of the division stronger than the last seed of the higher division. No system works like that. Due to the higher level of competition the last place of Division A should be considered stronger than the First place of Division B - by default. The tournament format should expect the div a playoff seeds to go trough to quarters, not the division b teams. Your System does it the other way around which leads to those weird matchups. Division B should not have a secured semifinal spot.

If you do it like this you do end up with more interesting and important groupstages AND (in theory - without upsets) stacked semifinals while quarterfinals are still somewhat competetive.

Since you seeded every team of the tournament based on rating this doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Every div a team is rated over ANY div b team. No idea why this concept gets ignored when it comes to the playoffs.

Im not pretending ive actually gone trough the rules beforehand. Literally saw this and wondered how those matchups can even happen.

// just checked you're right thats the wis system. Doesn't change that the system has a major ****up, i don't normally go over the format in detail so I didn't even notice.
Click to expand...

I made the same argument to Watly before the tournament started where it didn't make sense for the top of B to go straight through but bottom of A gets knocked out. I clearly couldnt convince him :sad:. If they made it so that there's playoffs for let's say top of B goes against bottom of A, then that format would be a standard league format. The only way a league format works is if all teams stick around have have very similar rosters, otherwise the seeding would change each time and would have to be replaced; so you'll be fighting for nothing, just to get into an upper bracket, which still doesnt guarantee your league placement in the next tournament. The best formats are like the standard WSC format or something.

I also made the argument in the tournament announcement thread on this page with screenshots and stuff.
https://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,386775.msg9163309.html#msg9163309

I think people forget that I argue for the sake of making the tournament better, so people should probably take on board what I'm saying. The format could have been avoided if people actually thought about it and agreed with me.
 
if this was pointed out before the tournament started its very weird to me that it wasnt changed. its not alot of work either literally 10 seconds of typing
can totally see why uk intentionally dropped matches in order to finish 3rd for free semi finals, imagine if all teams read rules beforehand and noone plays for 1st or 2nd since everyone wants to finish 3rd :grin: :grin:
 
I don't care how badly you did in a training match, no admin team should have accepted ranking you similar in strength to unknown teams like Argentina and China, or the same as Austria, or Czech Republic. It's laughable.
 
OurGloriousLeader said:
I don't care how badly you did in a training match, no admin team should have accepted ranking you similar in strength to unknown teams like Argentina and China, or the same as Austria, or Czech Republic. It's laughable.
Click to expand...

The reasoning Watly gave me was that it was a close call between i think Spain and BeNe for seeding points, and the latter got a bit lower ratings by the community members maybe due to its results in trainings and as such it was luckily placed in that group by a very small margin. But yeah, unbalanced, should've been done another way.
 
theDonut said:
OurGloriousLeader said:
I don't care how badly you did in a training match, no admin team should have accepted ranking you similar in strength to unknown teams like Argentina and China, or the same as Austria, or Czech Republic. It's laughable.
Click to expand...

The reasoning Watly gave me was that it was a close call between i think Spain and BeNe for seeding points, and the latter got a bit lower ratings by the community members maybe due to its results in trainings and as such it was luckily placed in that group by a very small margin. But yeah, unbalanced, should've been done another way.
Click to expand...

Yeah and the only reason BeNe landed lower is because a bunch of BeNe and French team members (who share a team with a BeNe member) rated BeNe incredibly low  :lol:
 
d5edc512200fb8a8ec6311d798a561c9.png

Looking at that screenshot, not sure how alot of them were ever accepted as real votes? Adding to that, if you look at the whole spreadsheet alot of people voted 2 - 3 on top teams? Even if they are 'trolling' shouldent the very high iq admin watly not just remove the clearly troll votes and only take into account the valid votes.

Spain should of been in Group B, they were cheated hard.
 
Apollo~ said:
if you look at the whole spreadsheet alot of people voted 2 - 3 on top teams? Even if they are 'trolling' shouldent the very high iq admin watly not just remove the clearly troll votes and only take into account the valid votes.
Click to expand...

NA should have been 5 I agree  :grin:
 
I think of one the issues were the fact that Watly did a poor job explaining how the voting works - he made it from a scale of 1 to 5, but instead of making '1' being top seed, he made 5 be top seed. Not only that the instructions on the questionnaire were awfully contradictive (which is why you probably see some top seeds be voted at a '2'). It does seem like the majority of the french players were on the same team speak together when doing the voting which is why they're all so similar.
 
Some quality suggestions by OGL!!

OurGloriousLeader said:
...I'm just seeing how you decided seeds...
Click to expand...
OurGloriousLeader said:
...I never checked the seeds before...
Click to expand...

Probably should have done that before then.



OurGloriousLeader said:
...how tf did you let several 2 and 3 votes for BeNe get counted

is noone remotely concerned that Watly tried to rig this tournament in favour of BeNe?

Good on NA at least for stomping them lol
Click to expand...

1. These votes average out on aggregate, resulting in what is probably one of the least biased team seedings so far. BeNe ending up in 7th seed is the result of a combination of factors, including but not limited to certain players voting Spain higher than I would put them myself.

2. Nice accusation there; expected that one to come way sooner though. No, if I wanted to rig the tourney, I would have moved my team up to group A so I could at least enjoy the first 5 weeks. Otherwise, I would have at least rigged the knockout seeds, so we wouldn't have to play NA again. Right now, I end up with a knock-out after a home-away match playing not a single group A team.

3. Glad you're still as pleasant as ever OGL.



HKP said:
No clue what tournaments format this is but the quarterfinal matchups make no sense. UK who finished 3rd Div A get the easiest possibly seed available.

Matchups shouldve been
Poland TR 2
TR NA
UK BeNe
FRA GER

Then you put place 1 and 2 div A on the opposite sides of the bracket so that they can't play before final (no idea if thats the case atm).

Hope this gets fixed for the next tournaments.
Click to expand...

We discussed your option at length as compared to the current option. The main reason we did not opt for that was that we felt it would be strange to give play-off winners a better seed than teams who advanced directly. This could result in situations such as the third place of group B receiving a better seed than the first place in group B.

This obviously introduces the issue that you pointed out as well, hence the lengthy argument we had regarding this.



Apollo~ said:
d5edc512200fb8a8ec6311d798a561c9.png

Looking at that screenshot, not sure how alot of them were ever accepted as real votes? Adding to that, if you look at the whole spreadsheet alot of people voted 2 - 3 on top teams? Even if they are 'trolling' shouldent the very high iq admin watly not just remove the clearly troll votes and only take into account the valid votes.

Spain should of been in Group B, they were cheated hard.
Click to expand...

Yes, anyone voting Spain higher than or equal to BeNe is inherently trolling. Thank you for your quality contribution to the discussion Apollo!!!



HKP said:
...Hope this gets fixed for the next tournaments.
Click to expand...
Apollo~ said:
Disgusting behaviour as a tournament host...  :roll: :facepalm: :dead:
Click to expand...

You seem to be eager to host your own tournament, so feel free to implement your changes there.
 
Watly said:
OurGloriousLeader said:
...I'm just seeing how you decided seeds...
Click to expand...
OurGloriousLeader said:
...I never checked the seeds before...
Click to expand...

Probably should have done that before then.
Click to expand...

Were they public? I did look.

Regardless, I'm not an admin. Maybe you shouldn't have made a mistake (or tried to cheat - whichever you prefer)



OurGloriousLeader said:
...how tf did you let several 2 and 3 votes for BeNe get counted

is noone remotely concerned that Watly tried to rig this tournament in favour of BeNe?

Good on NA at least for stomping them lol
Click to expand...

Watly said:
1. These votes average out on aggregate, resulting in what is probably one of the least biased team seedings so far. BeNe ending up in 7th seed is the result of a combination of factors, including but not limited to certain players voting Spain higher than I would put them myself.

2. Nice accusation there; expected that one to come way sooner though. No, if I wanted to rig the tourney, I would have moved my team up to group A so I could at least enjoy the first 5 weeks. Otherwise, I would have at least rigged the knockout seeds, so we wouldn't have to play NA again. Right now, I end up with a knock-out after a home-away match playing not a single group A team.

3. Glad you're still as pleasant as ever OGL.
Click to expand...

1. As already explained their aggregate is extremely suspect considering the spectacularly low votes from some voters who all share something in common.

2. The accusation would have come sooner had you released the votes.

3. xoxo
 
They were public and posted in an announcement as soon as 30-09-2019, 23:48:50.

The aggregate is suspect in your eyes. The reality is that BeNe lost to a team lower-seeded than them, so perhaps your opinion is wrong and the opinions of Maximou, Thorr and Paulo were correct? I was not willing to make that call, so you probably should have told me sooner I could put myself in the more fun group.
 
Apollo~ said:
d5edc512200fb8a8ec6311d798a561c9.png

Looking at that screenshot, not sure how alot of them were ever accepted as real votes? Adding to that, if you look at the whole spreadsheet alot of people voted 2 - 3 on top teams? Even if they are 'trolling' shouldent the very high iq admin watly not just remove the clearly troll votes and only take into account the valid votes.

Spain should of been in Group B, they were cheated hard.
Click to expand...

lmao nice screenshot, but you can‘t take the votes serious if you invite hackers and people with low sportsmanship into that poll haha
 
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