A correction about the Sturgian army

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SturgiaStrong said:
Personally i think there is too much slavic influence in Sturgia already. It should be less. If i understand correclty Sturgians inspired by pre-christian early medieval Rus state of 9 and 10 centuries. And yes Rus were scandinavian tribe as it's literally mentioned in Primary Chronicle

There can't be too much Slavic influence in Sturgia. Yes, Rus were originally Scandinavians. But they were tiny minority. Less then 1% of the society.
 
Nicodemus. said:
FBohler said:
We are all aware that Mount&Blade games don't feature religions, so based on the OP I demand an Ulfednar-free game.
We are all aware that Mount&Blade games don't feature religions, so based on the comment I am quoting I demand that the Aserais should munch on bacon sandwiches and lagers.

Who told you that their restriction to pork and alcohol is in-game religion based?

By the way, can you disclose the name of their in-game religion?

:fruity: :fruity: :fruity: :fruity:
 
hruza said:
SturgiaStrong said:
Personally i think there is too much slavic influence in Sturgia already. It should be less. If i understand correclty Sturgians inspired by pre-christian early medieval Rus state of 9 and 10 centuries. And yes Rus were scandinavian tribe as it's literally mentioned in Primary Chronicle

There can't be too much Slavic influence in Sturgia. Yes, Rus were originally Scandinavians. But they were tiny minority. Less then 1% of the society.
Again you are talking about wrong time period. Sturgia based on pre christian Rus state of Rurik Oleg (Helgi) etc. It was viking centered state with great viking influence. For example like Medieval Rus boat called Ladya (appeared in 9 century) is localised drakkar or sacking of Constantinople by Helgi. That's examples of Viking's culture influence. And of course Rus were alot more than 1% of society. Maybe in villages of southern parts of state but not in Holmsgardr for sure. And you forgot to say that there were alot of Finno-Ugric tribes. As much as slavs i would say
 
SturgiaStrong said:
Again you are talking about wrong time period. Sturgia based on pre christian Rus state of Rurik Oleg (Helgi) etc. It was viking centered state with great viking influence.

First of all, Rus were not vikings. Viking in Scandinavia referred to a pirate/searaider. It's not a name of the people, it's name of the criminal occupation.

Second, Scandinavian influence in pre christian Rus state did not went beyond tiny minority of Scandinavian ruling elite on top, including some merchants and craftsmen who serviced it.

SturgiaStrong said:
For example like Medieval Rus boat called Ladya (appeared in 9 century) is localised drakkar or sacking of Constantinople by Helgi. That's examples of Viking's culture influence.

So what? There are examples of Turkic, Finno-ugric, Germanic, Iranian and various other influences in early Russian state. And biggest of all influences was Slavic.

Oleg titled himself "kagan", not konung and not jarl. There, that's cultural influence too.

SturgiaStrong said:
And of course Rus were alot more than 1% of society. Maybe in villages of southern parts of state but not in Holmsgardr for sure.

Average Scandinavian ship at the time of the founding of Rus carried about 30 men. So how many of your "vikings" could possibly come to Russia? On the other hand population of Russia at that time is estimated in millions.

...do the math.

SturgiaStrong said:
And you forgot to say that there were alot of Finno-Ugric tribes. As much as slavs i would say

Finno-Ugric tribes played important role during earliest period when Russian state was formed on the northern shore of the Baltic sea and lake Ladoga. But as soon as Russians extended their realm south and west, they became minority too.

It's very clear from the simple fact that it was Slavic culture that eventually became dominant and all others have assimilated.
 
Agreed.
There is alot of stuff they need to fix with the Sturgian units,make them look slavic by adding the spheroconical helmets that appeared on the concept art..
 
What have now, I like. There is a Druzhina - the main army of the Prince. There is a militia. And there is heavy infantry - the Varangians. From the side of Russian-speaking players it looks strange, but the game is beautiful, and judging by the classes in multiplayer will be stupid. Overall beautiful.

Perhaps the only thing I would like to see is that Sturgia was not too Viking-style. I would like to diversify the Slavic atrebutics of that time. As well as other features inherent in Kievan Rus, as a nation of several peoples.

Add at least a couple of tribal signs, for example, the Sun or something in the style of Kolovrat. Either a wolf or a snow leopard. Somehow to diversify it

For it feels like it's a nation from Skyrim. It looks cool, but somehow too Viking-style and it's a little offensive.
In general, in order not to change the game too much, you can simply add a few little things to look more in the style of Kievan Rus. For example, a couple of banners and other cool stuff.

In general, playing is very cool!
 
I already posted videos from this event
this is what the army of Sturgia should look like :3
 
CKyHC said:
I already posted videos from this event
this is what the army of Sturgia should look like :3

Well, that looks freaking cool. I think the infantry clash in the game should be like this. Sometimes i feel that the battles finish too quickly
 
Caementicium said:
KhergitLancer99 said:
EDIT: Alrighty then ! petmonster_tw confirmed it will be fixed. Thank you very much. We shall all be happy ! :grin:

I have always supported Sturgian cryers because I can relate to them.
For years Turks were represented in video games as a form of Arabs.
Now this Ulfhednar-Berserkir thing is more like a German/Scandinavian related thing rather than Sturgia and Kievan Rus so I am not talking about it,

In medieval 2 total war for example. There are only 2 middle eastern factions in the game compared to all those European factions. This itself is a spit on the face in the first place.

And the Turks, the only middle eastern faction in the game apart from Egypt, dont even have their own general sound.
An Arabic accented guy is speaking. Units phenotypes are beardy and dark. Turks apart from ruling class and pashas never favoured beard but moustaches. Units are Arab looking, Arab named. WTF is naffatun ? I am amazingly interested in medieval times and read history a lot but I have no idea what a naffatun means, was, meant to be.

Hashasim !!! I assume they mistyped hashasin ? You know, since ''m'' and ''n'' are next to each other in keyboard. Hashashin were an iranian shia cult that was assassinating(the word derives from them) state leaders(most famously brilliant iranian seljuk vizier Nizamülmülk). So they were one of the fiercest and most dangerous enemies of Seljuks, Total War add them as a heavy infantry to ''the Turks'' faction. Heavy infantry wielding a huge ass shield and a sword. At least make them a light infantry damn it !!! I am beyond their historical side, them not being battle units but nothing has nothing to do with it ! Even the name is wrong !

Saracen milita. ''saracen'' What crusaders called arab muslims in medieval ages. There is no more stereotypy you can get than this even if you want to. Maybe saracen camel rider ?

Even the most famous to west janissaries are represented wrong. No Janisarry shock troop ? Before gunpowder a Janissary was an archer and a shock troop before anything. They were known for wearing no armour and the most useful janissary melee troop in the game is ''janissary heavy infantry''.

''The Turks'' flag itself is a huge spit on the face. Again very stereotypy. At least they dont know crescent and star became islams symbol because of Ottoman Empire. In islam you cant actually use sky objects as flags because thats shirk(suggesting partner to Allah, the hugest sin), that became a thing with Ottoman empire, crsecent was actually a Turkic pagan symbol but after Ottoman empire fell many muslim countries started using crescent in its memory. Even the ones that have never been part of it such as Malaysia.
Star next to the flag was added to Ottoman flag in 19th century.

Egypt flag is more hilarious because it is actually Ottoman classical flag. Those crescents being 3 actually symbolise Ottoman Empire having lands on 3 continents. Egypt on the other hand has lands only in 2 continents, none in Europe.

Ofc Creative Assembly(devs of Total War) didnt think of this, they thought, hmm crescent and star is modern Turkeys and Ottoman empires flag today and it is islams symbol but lets make it more islamic for the sake of ''medieval ages'' and make primary color green. Result: Pakistani flag.



If simply there was no land on the other side of ocean and Europe didnt advance to number 1 spot of earth leaving China, India, middle east etc behind, if they werent the centre of World media and so on...
in games like Med 2 Total War it would be a French speaking general for pretty much every European faction.

In Ottoman Empire Europe was called Frengistan: Land of Franks. They were all French to the Ottoman Empire.
Even in one of recent times Turkish historical series in battle of Mohacs Hungarians were wearing Spanish conquistador armors.

I dont know if tomarrow will far east surpass west not only in economics but will it also follow it up in taking over of world media and holding the power of choosing the pop-culture icons but if it does I assure you all those Europeans from teen to old ones are going to get their head bashed(metaphorically ofc) until they learn every single ethnicity and cultural group of China they labeled as one in the past(Tibetans for example)

But I also have to add up sth about the Sturgia criers, although I supported them, from my little research and what I read from them, they seem to be mistaking what TW promised us with Sturgia. We arent promised with a typical ''Slav'' faction. Of course Kievan Rus was a Slav faction but they seem to ignore and want it to be ignored the huge scandinavian effect on Kievan Rus.

One website says even the name Rus according to a strong theory was initially a scandinavian tribes name. Also that the state started after Slavs decided they argue so much so asked for Scandinavians to come and rule them.
From what I see in Google images the armors are a mixture of Tatar and Viking armors, except that Druzhina helmet, but I am not even sure if  even that didnt derive from pointy conical helmets of steppe people.

From what I understood their early history is very foggy so noone knows how much part did Scandinavians have on society, were they quickly assimiliated like those Norman kings in Europe ? Did they govern Slavs like Turkic mamluks governed Arabs having pride in their lineage and paying attention to preserving it ?

For me I would rather make the banners slavic just to make Slav community happier. I mean the game has a huge and loyal slav community and you already made a huge gesture by adding something so seldomly used when there was Vikings, you can just say you were influenced by other Slavic kingdoms and make the banners slavic. I mean what is the point of sticking to one theory about Kievan Rus, isnt the game taking place in a fictional World ? Just say you were influenced by other Slavic kingdoms too and add those slavic banners to the game.

I believe Normans are the closest point of comparison, wealthy and successful adventures that eventually disappeared simply out of consequence of ruling over a people who outnumbered them so extremely.

I am a bit torn between what I want from the Sturgians. I would prefer a larger Slavic influence for flavor. But I do want Scandinavian infantry for gameplay. I think the Empire also benefits if Sturgia has Scandinavian infantry, because then a player can have their Varangian Guard if they want. Which I think a lot of Empire players will. I hope that their cavalry and their archers are very Slavic and only the infantry are Scandinavian, I think. Which makes sense anyway. Just enough to make it feel like there are more Slavs than Scandinavians.

Oh and one comment regarding what you mentioned about China. If China does rise to become a cultural juggernaut like Europe has in the past, it will be quite different. The Chinese themselves are taught to forget names like "Tibetan". The government has a very strong focus on unity, they don't like people remembering that China wasn't always united like it is today and they don't like people outside of China knowing it either. A few video games have been banned there in the past simply for displaying earlier periods in history when Tibet was its own empire, or before the Manchu tribes conquered and eventually merged with China or before Taiwan was colonized.

Do you think that maybe the Northern fiefs in the Northern Empire should be reinforced by scandinavian type warriors; so like lords and fiefs in the Northern relam of the Northern Empire are periodically reinforced with scandinavian type mercenaries?
 
hruza said:
Viking in Scandinavia referred to a pirate/searaider. It's not a name of the people, it's name of the criminal occupation.
Yeah i know, my bad. You understood what i meant anyway. Should've called them norsemen ofc.
hruza said:
Second, Scandinavian influence in pre christian Rus state did not went beyond tiny minority of Scandinavian ruling elite on top, including some merchants and craftsmen who serviced it.
Even the state was called by their name. Sure no influence at all  :meh:
hruza said:
So what? There are examples of Turkic, Finno-ugric, Germanic, Iranian and various other influences in early Russian state. And biggest of all influences was Slavic.
First of all there were no russians back in the days ok? Second - there were no Iranians Turkic influences also. Third there were 2 major influences in Rus state: firstly rus influence, and secondly christian-byzantine influence later on. And finally actually Slavic people were influenced. Don't see no drevlyans or polyans here anymore, do you?  :fruity:
hruza said:
Oleg titled himself "kagan", not konung and not jarl. There, that's cultural influence too.
No he didn't. And Helgi didn't call himself Oleg either. Guy was norseman
hruza said:
Average Scandinavian ship at the time of the founding of Rus carried about 30 men. So how many of your "vikings" could possibly come to Russia? On the other hand population of Russia at that time is estimated in millions.
First of all do you know people can migrate? Same way for example angles colonised British Isles. Rus started settling and colonizing region near Ladoga more than century before arrival of Rurik. And finally millions is very bold figure. Like every figure about population of ancient times(not only Rus but in general) i think it's overestimated.
hruza said:
Finno-Ugric tribes played important role during earliest period when Russian state was formed on the northern shore of the Baltic sea and lake Ladoga
Yeah and that's exactly time period which Sturgia is based upon  :idea: :idea: :idea:
hruza said:
But as soon as Russians extended their realm south and west, they became minority too.

It's very clear from the simple fact that it was Slavic culture that eventually became dominant and all others have assimilate
Again i don't understand which russians you talking about? There were Rus, Polyans, Drevlyans, Krivichs, Chud and so on, but no russians. By the way by extending you mean conquering right? Like Kiev was conquered by Rus from Khazars  :roll: And as i've said before Slavic people were assimilated in new unique culture. Same way Anglo-Saxons assimilated in Englishmen under Norman rule.


@Jurgen I am russian-speaking player and for me Druzhina class is looking anachronistic and strange. It should be varangian based


 
CKyHC said:
It should be?why? :roll:
Because retinue of varangian princes was varangian-based  :idea: :idea:
You guys just want retinue of 12-13th centuries, am i wrong?
soldatik-russkiy-voin.jpg

You just want to see these guys
 
Younes123 said:
SturgiaStrong said:
CKyHC said:
It should be?why? :roll:
Because retinue of varangian princes was varangian-based  :idea: :idea:
You guys just want retinue of 12-13th centuries, am i wrong?
soldatik-russkiy-voin.jpg

You just want to see these guys
That picture looking dope as hell. Nice looking soldier
Nice hauberk (kolchuga in russian) and helmet combo. Helmet has obviously strong norsemen influence. For example Gjermundbu helmet (one fragment of helmet was found in Kiev by the way)
250px-Gjermundbu_helmet_-_cropped.jpg

Mail aventail partially lost.
So give that guy round shield and I will be ok with that
 
SturgiaStrong said:
Because retinue of varangian princes was varangian-based  :idea: :idea:
You guys just want retinue of 12-13th centuries, am i wrong?
You just want to see these guys
I want red sneakers, a raincoat and a bulldog puppy :3

 
fractions in the game are based on 8-11 centuries. so the influence in Sturgia should be not only Scandinavian, but also Khazar, Byzantine and Pecheneg. From the 10th century, Russia was faced with the steppe peoples, and this had a huge impact on it. The squad became predominantly equestrian. The Scandinavians quickly mixed with the peoples inhabiting the territory of ancient Russia, and after two or three generations the names of the princes were mostly Slavic.
 
SturgiaStrong said:
Yeah i know, my bad. You understood what i meant anyway. Should've called them norsemen ofc.

I know, I just wanted to clarify.

SturgiaStrong said:
First of all there were no russians back in the days ok?

Yes they were. "Ruskiye" in the Primary Chronicle.

SturgiaStrong said:
Second - there were no Iranians Turkic influences also.

Slavs always lived neighboring Iranian and Turkic people. Khazars, Sarmathians, Scithians, Allans and others. There are plenty of both Iranian and Turkic influences in Russian language alone, altough with Turkic it's hard to distinguish between early and late influences.

SturgiaStrong said:
Third there were 2 major influences in Rus state: firstly rus influence, and secondly christian-byzantine influence later on. And finally actually Slavic people were influenced. Don't see no drevlyans or polyans here anymore, do you?

Drevlyans or Polyans were Slavic tribes.

SturgiaStrong said:
No he didn't. And Helgi didn't call himself Oleg either. Guy was norseman

Of course he did. And his ethnic origin have no influence over it. Kagan is a political title, it have no ethnicity. It's name is however Turkic and Russian princes adopted it from Khazars.

Khazars had by far the largest influence on formation of Rus as they were the very first civilized empire that new Russian state came to contact with. As a result Russians borrowed many political and institutional practices from Khazars. It was only later with decline of Khazars, closing down of the Volga route to the Middle East and rise of Dnieper route to Byzantium that that influence was replaced by Byzantine influence. At that point Russian rullers stoped to call themselves Khagans and begun to call themselves Czars (Caesars).

SturgiaStrong said:
First of all do you know people can migrate?

Yes, they can migrate using ships. Because there was no land connection between Russia and Sweden back then. Each of which could take 30 men on average. Do the math...

SturgiaStrong said:
Same way for example angles colonised British Isles.

Baltic Sea is not English Channel. You can't cross it from Sweden to Russia on a dug out boat on a sunny calm day with your wife and cow on a prow.

SturgiaStrong said:
Rus started settling and colonizing region near Ladoga more than century before arrival of Rurik.

Rus did not start to colonize anything. Scandinavians did. And the oldest Scandinavian archaeological finds in Russia date to around 750 AD. They also show no presence of massive migration. Most of them were trading posts.

SturgiaStrong said:
And finally millions is very bold figure. Like every figure about population of ancient times(not only Rus but in general) i think it's overestimated.

I think I rather trust historians. Given territorial extension of Russian state back then, what ever population on those territories might have been, it was in execs of one million.

In comparison average Viking boat could carry 30 men...

SturgiaStrong said:
Yeah and that's exactly time period which Sturgia is based upon

Nope, it's not. From Devblog:

"The Sturgians are based on the federation of city-states known as Kievan Rus, located in today's Russia, Belarus and Ukraine."

It's based on the Russian state at it's largest extend.

SturgiaStrong said:
Again i don't understand which russians you talking about? There were Rus, Polyans, Drevlyans, Krivichs, Chud and so on, but no russians.

Then look in to the Primary Chronicle. You'll find those Russians there.

SturgiaStrong said:
By the way by extending you mean conquering right? Like Kiev was conquered by Rus from Khazars  :roll: And as i've said before Slavic people were assimilated in new unique culture. Same way Anglo-Saxons assimilated in Englishmen under Norman rule.

English is modern word derived from word "Angle". Anglo-Saxons could not assimilate in to Angles, they already were Angles. Hence Anglo-Saxons.
 
SturgiaStrong said:
@Jurgen I am russian-speaking player and for me Druzhina class is looking anachronistic and strange. It should be varangian based

I did not understand what you meant by that. Perhaps Google translates poorly.

In fact, Kievan Rus is a multifaceted state. Which had a complete monarchy and nevertheless the authoritarian part of the aristocracy in the person of tribes, but any tribe that decided to rebel against the prince was immediately decided with a sword and ax.
852360a3f7758f433e9f815c1d1b6dd4.jpg


The second, most evil enemy of Rus was the nomads, Rus took something different from each people and used it. It is not surprising that you see that Rus has weapons alongside nomads and Vikings. That is why this equipment could be worn by a Slavic guy. It spread like chain mail and swords, which were found in the Kiev region. Then the northern swords were the best, and Rus could easily buy them from neighboring peoples. No wonder I heard an ancient saying somewhere. The Varangian says: Prince, when will we divide the gold? And the Voevoda answers him: take your time, first we will buy swords and other necessary things. You may also notice short bows and the closure of cuman helmets. This culture took on the most powerful aspects of military equipment.

You can also recall the Black hoods, and there are many such examples. This already suggests that the Vikings were only in the service of the prince, like warriors. According to other sources, one can already see that the princes took many peoples, even Bulgarians and Tatars, into their army.

As for Oleg and others. There is nothing to argue about. You can collect about 100 public theories about all the historians of the world, and it will even be difficult to find the truth. I think you should not even talk about it. In any case, his name is in Slavic, it already says something. If he were Helgi, he would be called Helgi. And so people, instead of looking at obvious things, look for reasons. Now many names are generally similar. Take for example many names, they are all taken from different cultures from somewhere
 
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