Faction colours and Clan heraldry

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Faction colours and Clan heraldry


In the many battles that we have seen in the various videos of this year's gamescom, the warriors of the Calradic factions are clothed in distinct, uniform colours. While this provides much visual clarity and makes the battlefield easy to read, in the eyes of some members of this forum, including myself, it does not always seem very attractive, as recent discussions show. Moreover it does not allow to distinguish warriors from different clans within a faction from one another. As a compromise, that on the one hand retains much of the distinction between factions, but also provides variety within a faction, and adds character to each clan, I suggest this:

Each faction has two colours associated with it. Clans have individual heraldry, early and simple when compared to history. This heraldry is comprised of the faction colours, with variations in shades, and can include one or two fields as well as a device/emblem.

My first idea for the faction colours would be these:

Vlandia: red and gold
Battania: green and brown
Asserai: yellow and brown
Khuzait: turquoise and black
Sturgia: blue and white
Empire: purple and gold


Now I'm not an artist, and this is just a rough draft of what finished clan heraldry might look like, but here you go.

XaWSXWo.jpg



I'm sure everyone would be able to tell without difficulty, which faction these coats of arms belong to, even without the captions.

It is of course possible, that this or a similar idea has already been discussed at Taleworlds and there are solid reasons why they decided against it. If so, fair enough. Maybe some of that reasoning could be shared with us in this case. I'd be genuinely interested.





Here is another example of what clan heraldry might look like, by someone considerably more capable than myself.

Terco_Viejo said:




One problem with this idea might be, that in Bannerlord's new army system, troops are grouped by their class, not by clans, so that all infantry from all the lords in an army is put together in a unit. That unit might look quite disorganized and not very pleasing if the various clan devices are mixed randomly. But I hope that it might be possible to group soldiers within a unit by clan, so that a unit of infantry, for example, consists of several blocks, each made up of warriors of one clan. That way the unit would still look structured, while including visual variety as well.
 
maybe do so
fraction has its color
the clan has its own color
coat of arms
main color of the fraction + clan color
 
Regarding your proposed coat of arms -- there's a rule in European heraldry called the rule of tincture. It says "Metal shall not be on metal, and colours shall not be on colours". Metal being the tinctures/colors white (argent) and yellow (or), colours being red (gules), black (sable), blue (azure), vert (green), purpure (purple) and other rare "stain" colors. According to that rule tinctures from the same group cannot be on top of each other. This is not a purely arbitrary rule, it was set in order to improve clarity of the heraldry with contrast. Tinctures of the "Metal" group are bright and tinctures of "Colour" are darker. Putting two of the same on top blurs the outlines of the charges (shapes) in those tinctures. There has been many exceptions given how long the history of heraldry is and how much it's developed over time, but this simple rule provides a good guiding principle of contrast for readability.

All that is to say I am not a fan of your Battania designs. That bright green is fine (I personally think that shade of green looks a bit "sickly", but that's just personal opinion), despite not being a european tincture -- calradia is merely inpsired by medieval Europe after all. The thing is you used a lot of browns on the escutcheon (shield), and your charges for them are also brown. Now it is true that a charge occupying all parts of a parted shield can use either tincture group, so for the bottom Battania design it is technically not a violation of the RoT, but it's still hard to read. Since you used colours for both parts of the field the boar can be white or yellow, I'm sure it should bring the shape out more; for the top one -- the dominate tincture is that green. Not sure if that should be considered "Metal" or not, but keep in mind the purpose is to produce contrast. The bend and the charge should both be opposite to the field tincture, but for readability should also be different. If the field should be regarded as "metal", I suggest red and blue as the two tinctures of the bend and charge, as they are roughly traids with that shape of green on the color wheel, meaning the result should be pretty vibrant.
 
Bannerlord is supposed to take place in 8th-11th centuries, way before the establishing of European heraldry and its rules. Also, only Vlandians belong to this Western European civilization.
 
Something that tied in closely with this design process was deciding the faction colours. We wanted each faction to have a distinctive colour which would make their troops recognisable in the thick of a battle, while also subtly representing the culture of that faction. In other words, we needed to select colours which are unique for gameplay reasons, but still say something about the faction. One issue we ran into while selecting the faction colours was with multiplayer. We use two different colours for each faction in multiplayer: dark as the primary (team 1) and light as the secondary (team 2). The team colours are displayed in various UI elements, items and clothing so we wanted to ensure that players could easily differentiate between the two teams at a glance and that everything is visually clear for colour blind players.

https://steamcommunity.com/games/261550/announcements/detail/1649884446698938168

Maybe the light and dark background colours can also be used in single player banners. Has anyone seen these dual colours in the multiplayer beta?


BTW the three Empire factions need their own faction colours (as TW have given them), reverting to a single set would be a step backwards.
 
Al-Mansūr said:
Bannerlord is supposed to take place in 8th-11th centuries, way before the establishing of European heraldry and its rules. Also, only Vlandians belong to this Western European civilization.

Doesn't matter, as i wrote, the whole point of that one (among many) heraldric rules i meantion was for clarity purposes. The Battanian CoA here are the worse offenders and it is pretty clear to see how the colors fail to bring out the shapes in them. Even just from the point of view of graphic design those two can definitely use more contrasting colors.
 
lcmiracle said:
Regarding your proposed coat of arms -- there's a rule in European heraldry called the rule of tincture. It says "Metal shall not be on metal, and colours shall not be on colours". Metal being the tinctures/colors white (argent) and yellow (or), colours being red (gules), black (sable), blue (azure), vert (green), purpure (purple) and other rare "stain" colors. According to that rule tinctures from the same group cannot be on top of each other. This is not a purely arbitrary rule, it was set in order to improve clarity of the heraldry with contrast. Tinctures of the "Metal" group are bright and tinctures of "Colour" are darker. Putting two of the same on top blurs the outlines of the charges (shapes) in those tinctures. There has been many exceptions given how long the history of heraldry is and how much it's developed over time, but this simple rule provides a good guiding principle of contrast for readability.

All that is to say I am not a fan of your Battania designs. That bright green is fine (I personally think that shade of green looks a bit "sickly", but that's just personal opinion), despite not being a european tincture -- calradia is merely inpsired by medieval Europe after all. The thing is you used a lot of browns on the escutcheon (shield), and your charges for them are also brown. Now it is true that a charge occupying all parts of a parted shield can use either tincture group, so for the bottom Battania design it is technically not a violation of the RoT, but it's still hard to read. Since you used colours for both parts of the field the boar can be white or yellow, I'm sure it should bring the shape out more; for the top one -- the dominate tincture is that green. Not sure if that should be considered "Metal" or not, but keep in mind the purpose is to produce contrast. The bend and the charge should both be opposite to the field tincture, but for readability should also be different. If the field should be regarded as "metal", I suggest red and blue as the two tinctures of the bend and charge, as they are roughly traids with that shape of green on the color wheel, meaning the result should be pretty vibrant.

Wow, I didn't think anyone would take my "designs" this seriously, so thank you for that.

I am aware of the heraldic rules, but thought that it would then be even more difficult to stick to the concept of unique main colours for each faction (e.g. no blue coats of arms for Vlandia) and still make them varied enough. The devices I put on the example shields are taken form the leaked lists of custom banner devices from the game.

Terco_Viejo said:
[...]
-msNp.jpg

1VRUB.jpg

I just crudely copied them over the shields, this could clearly have been done much better and carefully. They wouldn't need to all be in the centre of the shield, but could be within one field, respecting the heraldic rules.



NPC99 said:
Something that tied in closely with this design process was deciding the faction colours. We wanted each faction to have a distinctive colour which would make their troops recognisable in the thick of a battle, while also subtly representing the culture of that faction. In other words, we needed to select colours which are unique for gameplay reasons, but still say something about the faction. One issue we ran into while selecting the faction colours was with multiplayer. We use two different colours for each faction in multiplayer: dark as the primary (team 1) and light as the secondary (team 2). The team colours are displayed in various UI elements, items and clothing so we wanted to ensure that players could easily differentiate between the two teams at a glance and that everything is visually clear for colour blind players.

https://steamcommunity.com/games/261550/announcements/detail/1649884446698938168

Maybe the light and dark background colours can also be used in single player banners. Has anyone seen these dual colours in the multiplayer beta?


BTW the three Empire factions need their own faction colours (as TW have given them), reverting to a single set would be a step backwards.

That's a good reminder. The colour scheme as it is is of course better for multiplayer, where clans don't matter.

I didn't consider the three Empire factions. Maybe they could have different secondary colours to tell them apart. Purple and gold/silver/black (or pure purple?) for example.

Also, the design for singleplayer as we now see it may of course not be final, so perhaps they'll yet modify it for the better.
 
lcmiracle said:
Al-Mansūr said:
Bannerlord is supposed to take place in 8th-11th centuries, way before the establishing of European heraldry and its rules. Also, only Vlandians belong to this Western European civilization.

Doesn't matter, as i wrote, the whole point of that one (among many) heraldric rules i meantion was for clarity purposes. The Battanian CoA here are the worse offenders and it is pretty clear to see how the colors fail to bring out the shapes in them. Even just from the point of view of graphic design those two can definitely use more contrasting colors.

True.
 
For **** sake yes!! This is a million times better than having to pick an icon and have no control over the background. Look at these beautiful and varied banners:


EvaWVR3.jpg
1ND6HKy.jpg
3ZqfDgu.jpg
7Cw0s4k.jpg
UrOehuE.jpg

It's almost as if they already had something similar to your proposal and then removed it. Probably for a stupid reason. I'm sure these current banners will look like **** in game. They need to bring back the varied designs. Something like what you suggested would work very nicely.
 
John the Roleplayer said:
In the many battles that we have seen in the various videos of this year's gamescom, the warriors of the Calradic factions are clothed in distinct, uniform colours. While this provides much visual clarity and makes the battlefield easy to read, in the eyes of some members of this forum, including myself, it does not always seem very attractive, as recent discussions show. Moreover it does not allow to distinguish warriors from different clans within a faction from one another. As a compromise, that on the one hand retains much of the distinction between factions, but also provides variety within a faction, and adds character to each clan, I suggest this:

Each faction has two colours associated with it. Clans have individual heraldry, early and simple when compared to history. This heraldry is comprised of the faction colours, with variations in shades, and can include one or two fields as well as a device/emblem.

My first idea for the faction colours would be these:

Vlandia: red and gold
Battania: green and brown
Asserai: yellow and brown
Khuzait: turquoise and black
Sturgia: blue and white
Empire: purple and gold


Now I'm not an artist, and this is just a rough draft of what finished clan heraldry might look like, but here you go.

XaWSXWo.jpg


I'm sure everyone would be able to tell without difficulty, which faction these coats of arms belong to, even without the captions.

It is of course possible, that this or a similar idea has already been discussed at Taleworlds and there are solid reasons why they decided against it. If so, fair enough. Maybe some of that reasoning could be shared with us in this case. I'd be genuinely interested.
Agreed. I loathe the idea of the current way they do Banners in Bannerlord remaining as such during release. I'm hoping for some kind of meaningful change. Your prescription for the underwhelming Banner problem is not at all bad.

RoboSenshi said:
For **** sake yes!! This is a million times better than having to pick an icon and have no control over the background. Look at these beautiful and varied banners:


EvaWVR3.jpg
1ND6HKy.jpg
3ZqfDgu.jpg
7Cw0s4k.jpg
UrOehuE.jpg
It's almost as if they already had something similar to your proposal and then removed it. Probably for a stupid reason. I'm sure these current banners will look like **** in game. They need to bring back the varied designs. Something like what you suggested would work very nicely.
By the gods! What happened?!?! Now it appears that the only choice the player has when "creating" their Banner is what sigil they'll use... Utterly atrocious and disappointing.
 
RoboSenshi said:
For **** sake yes!! This is a million times better than having to pick an icon and have no control over the background. Look at these beautiful and varied banners:


EvaWVR3.jpg
1ND6HKy.jpg
3ZqfDgu.jpg
7Cw0s4k.jpg
UrOehuE.jpg

It's almost as if they already had something similar to your proposal and then removed it. Probably for a stupid reason. I'm sure these current banners will look like **** in game. They need to bring back the varied designs. Something like what you suggested would work very nicely.

Absolutely agreed, the previous system was amazing and i didn't saw a single soul criticizing it, the banner editor was a natural evolution of warband's fixed banners.

I know they justified it by saying it's better for players to visualize the battlefield and that early medieval period didn't had a very developed heraldry and the second point makes sense but there is no denying the previous banners looked so much better and the banner editor was much more useful to the modding scene.

For example, now for a historical mod England will have a red field with the 3 golden lions but all english lords will also have red fields with their respective sigil in golden as well, if we can't atleast mod in unique banners for the clans it will be bad for historical mods..
 
RoboSenshi said:
[...]


EvaWVR3.jpg
1ND6HKy.jpg
3ZqfDgu.jpg
7Cw0s4k.jpg
UrOehuE.jpg

[...]

If they' ve removed this, it'll be another disappointment to add to my list.

Certainly, a game with a name as explicit as "Bannerlord" that does not delve into this is incomprehensible:

Terco_Viejo said:
And another thing (much less of course) If the game is called Bannerlord why are there so few banner shapes?
It is understandable to opt for a simplification at the design level, giving each faction a color and within each different symbols with the common color of the faction itself.
Keep in mind that there is a editor so that we can design our banner.
It has been simplified in colors and symbols, agree. However, why have the shapes of the banner been simplified?

Banner shapes seen so far:
a0J0tPP.jpg


I would personally add ensigns, emblems and different shapes of banner (historical inspiration-previous study) to each faction to extend the immersion in our playable experience.
Here's a choice:

 
Terco_Viejo said:
RoboSenshi said:
[...]


EvaWVR3.jpg
1ND6HKy.jpg
3ZqfDgu.jpg
7Cw0s4k.jpg
UrOehuE.jpg

[...]

If they' ve removed this, it'll be another disappointment to add to my list.

Certainly, a game with a name as explicit as "Bannerlord" that does not delve into this is incomprehensible:

Terco_Viejo said:
And another thing (much less of course) If the game is called Bannerlord why are there so few banner shapes?
It is understandable to opt for a simplification at the design level, giving each faction a color and within each different symbols with the common color of the faction itself.
Keep in mind that there is a editor so that we can design our banner.
It has been simplified in colors and symbols, agree. However, why have the shapes of the banner been simplified?

Banner shapes seen so far:
a0J0tPP.jpg


I would personally add ensigns, emblems and different shapes of banner (historical inspiration-previous study) to each faction to extend the immersion in our playable experience.
Here's a choice:


From latest devblog:
"Question: There was a noticeable absence of banners in the battles shown at Gamescom. Have these been removed? Or was it just a temporary measure?
Answer: Banners and banner bearers will definitely come back as even better and more polished than before."
 
Terco_Viejo said:
If they' ve removed this, it'll be another disappointment to add to my list.

Certainly, a game with a name as explicit as "Bannerlord" that does not delve into this is incomprehensible:
Looks like someone hasn't been doing homework  :fruity:
Answer is above

 
Piconi said:
Terco_Viejo said:
If they' ve removed this, it'll be another disappointment to add to my list.

Certainly, a game with a name as explicit as "Bannerlord" that does not delve into this is incomprehensible:
Looks like someone hasn't been doing homework  :fruity:
Answer is above

I don't want to sound arrogant, but I was clearly talking about shapes and colors, not the banners themselves. Just because the banners "come back" doesn't mean "come back" with those chromatic and structural differentiations that appear in the images.  :iamamoron:

giphy.gif
 
Terco_Viejo said:
Piconi said:
Terco_Viejo said:
If they' ve removed this, it'll be another disappointment to add to my list.

Certainly, a game with a name as explicit as "Bannerlord" that does not delve into this is incomprehensible:
Looks like someone hasn't been doing homework  :fruity:
Answer is above

I don't want to sound arrogant, but I was clearly talking about shapes and colors, not the banners themselves. Just because the banners "come back" doesn't mean "come back" with those chromatic and structural differentiations that appear in the images.  :iamamoron:

giphy.gif
Well, you fooled 2 of us, instructions not clear, tought Terco doesent read dev blogs anymore....
Also :
"Banners and banner bearers will definitely come back as even better and more polished than before."
This should mean you at least dont have to worry that much for now, even better sounds like heavy wording to me
 
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