Author Topic: [WBL] Questions & Suggestions  (Read 7339 times)

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Shemaforash

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Re: [WBL] Questions & Suggestions
« Reply #30 on: April 23, 2018, 10:24:07 PM »
The only thing that would lift the suspension would be implementing a client sided anti-cheat that would help with detecting 3rd party software, this thing is actually doable but it will probably be widely undesirable.

what makes you think that?

People didn't like the idea of downloading the anticheat and running it while playing the match.

How awful of those "people" to not like the anti-cheat provided. Perhaps they were cheating all this time, huh, really makes you think 

Watly

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Re: [WBL] Questions & Suggestions
« Reply #31 on: April 23, 2018, 11:44:41 PM »
Which still gave 4 days to contact me. But fine
They are simple mouse movements just watch the videos of him recording. He was watched  for 2 weeks where he played over 100 hours of warband, and all they have is a couple of gifs which dont show anything conclusive. There are no shots in the gifs, people make flick shots constantly and some hit some miss.
Its not a matter of opinion whether he cheats or not, one is right and one is wrong. He should be given the same right to prove himself the way maxi has. But sure your tournament, this is a mistake.

1. So he turns on his recording and doesn't make flick shots anymore. Who can check he didn't just turn it off and continued playing without aimbot?

2. Maxi's "chance to prove himself" was a proper meme and should only be used as a precedent in meme tourneys.

Claiming Anubis isn't using aim assist in those gifs is dumb and you should feel bad.

Just implement the cheat engine, if possible, and get some people to translate it to French, Turkish, Russian or any other language with people that are stereotyped as bad in English.
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Re: [WBL] Questions & Suggestions
« Reply #32 on: April 24, 2018, 12:16:37 AM »
I could help for french translation if it can provide a clean tourney without cheaters

Guaccmoleboy

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Re: [WBL] Questions & Suggestions
« Reply #33 on: April 24, 2018, 03:43:27 AM »
yeah it was the language barrier guys cmon

Greedalicious

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Re: [WBL] Questions & Suggestions
« Reply #34 on: April 24, 2018, 10:10:39 AM »
1.Every archer makes flick shots.Point out to me which flick shot he does which you dont think is possible.
Nobody can check that, thats why he has to record every set he plays. The shots he does while recording are solid, I havent seen him pull off any insane shots that would indicate an auto aim(before and after), and again, in the "evidence" he doesnt even shoot. Still havent seen the auto aim that supposedly acts this way. Been about a week now.
2. Lets say Anubis or maxi was autoaiming theres no possible way for them to do so if they record their gameplay. If after the tournament you're not convinced then the admins of the next tournament should enforce the same "must record gameplay" rule. Do this until you're convinced, you lose nothing on doing that.
3. What a solid argument, cant argue with that!
4. 100 % in favour of that.

@shema yeah because after 8 years of playing THIS is the tournament I'd recruit a cheater for.... Chances are high we'll be knocked out the first week, if not then defnitly the second, we dont play much anymore and we recruit based on personality not skill. You should be incredibly lucky AE has a different policy.

Anyway i'm not gonna argue anymore people have made their decision and nothing will change.
Quote
Yet, we can see a nice lock-on and then, when Anchor dies, Anubis INSTANTLY flicks to the left to another guy. It's a perfect, straight and instant flick to the left.
(click to show/hide)

I think that accurately shows the situation. The thought process behind his targetting makes complete sense, he targets a standstill target (easy target) and not a single person in that gif died. There are 4 targets on the screen, all of them cavalry. Also isnt Hero_of_ferelden anchors inf? Oh and NONE OF THEM DIED.

Enjoy the witchhunt, I'm outie.

OurGloriousLeader

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Re: [WBL] Questions & Suggestions
« Reply #35 on: April 24, 2018, 11:05:48 AM »
Enjoy the witchhunt, I'm outie.



TFW you never witchhunt

This is exactly the problem with relying on personal judgements with regard to banning people. Right now we have some dubious gifs that look dodgy banning one person, nothing regarding Quake, and Maximou who was found on a cheater forum only being forced to record.

I'm not saying any or none of the above are cheating, just that it's about consistency and how people are "caught". If I go on IG the next week and record people, am I going to be able to report a few others and get them banned if I catch some dodgy looking moves?

Previous tournaments have run on the idea that you need absolutely certain evidence before banning. This has probably let a few people off. Now we see the opposite problem where it's not clear at all what the criteria is for banning. Also, I'm pretty sure if Quake or Anubis were old players, neither would be getting this treatment. (again, they might be cheating might not)

Shemaforash

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Re: [WBL] Questions & Suggestions
« Reply #36 on: April 24, 2018, 12:02:41 PM »

Fietta

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Re: [WBL] Questions & Suggestions
« Reply #37 on: April 24, 2018, 12:16:07 PM »
Creating a client side modification can also be modified, so I highly doubt that would work.
 

Yoru

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Re: [WBL] Questions & Suggestions
« Reply #38 on: April 24, 2018, 12:26:26 PM »
let's have everyone livestreaming a third person point of view showing their hands and the gameplay in 4k solution without any instagram filters on them.
Then lets record the sound on vinyl and have it signed by the representative heads of state.

Then noone should be able to cheat no longer
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๖Kern

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Re: [WBL] Questions & Suggestions
« Reply #39 on: April 24, 2018, 02:19:27 PM »
let's have everyone livestreaming a third person point of view showing their hands and the gameplay in 4k solution without any instagram filters on them.
Then lets record the sound on vinyl and have it signed by the representative heads of state.

Then noone should be able to cheat no longer

I am afraid that recording a match will have to be enough.

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Re: [WBL] Questions & Suggestions
« Reply #40 on: April 25, 2018, 02:47:51 AM »
You see Greed, since you didn't even bothered to properly answer to the big points and went to nitpick the small stuff aside from some half-made points from the big one I didn't even bothered on answering full on because you proved me that even when trying to disprove me with facts you still messed up and focus on what you wanted, best example is with the "facts are fun" .Saying as because you started with tournaments already in Native in 2011 it basically disproved me of anything yet Sandorra was already playing the Finnish leagues at 2010 (or at leas that's what I understood) and the same with other examples, regardless I honestly couldn't care less, I was trying to make a point of you speaking out of your mind, I think it fulfilled what I wanted. Also, yes, I "properly" didn't start to play until June 2016, yet I have been around Warband since 2013 and was a pretty big fan of Competitive Streams at that time, I also didn't need to be around and registered from 2012 because I can too read the forums years afters, and I can ask the people that was around at that time and NOT just see the one side of the coin and see what both sides have to say about it and then make an opinion out of it. So yeah, no need to remark that I wasn't around that time and thus I can't make an opinion about it.

And hear me out, you can say, but Alecks, you're being hypocritical here, you can make a personal point about it but he can't. My ONLY and main reason here I did that is because Greed has repeatedly shown that (and this is NOT an opinion) everytime a cheater has been "caught" he's being way too aggresive about it, claiming the admins where too shady about it when they were investigating, saying that they were being biased or simply rejected "supposedly" undeniable proof but days after all these is proven wrong. And all of this is out there, not something I'm pulling out of my arse. Most of your posts Greed that involved these situations have been a half-educated half-aggresive post against whoever voiced an opinion against yours, you just listened to whatever supported your ideas and semi ignored the others, Darklight's case is LITERALLY the best example for it. You've shown it on Twitter with the "Wanna bet on Nothing." and you've shown it on Taleworlds. And while I know you don't mean in any harmful way, misinforming when you have half-truths or poorly based facts from one side don't help at all, specially when people that is trying to help the involved member or is investigating the case have to deal with it. And yes, you moreless apologised if you were wrong or cut it when it was required to / was proven otherwise but that "noise" was still a really bad thing for the accused.

But let's focus on what we should've from the start, just Anubis. I apologise if you took the attack as personal as it was never my intention but you have to see where I come from.

Big points that you need to reconsider Greed.

1.- Yes, most of the archers make flicks, but there's a reason why flicks are considered something so good and cool to make or watch. There's a difference on having a "flicky" playstyle which I do believe Anubis (KIND OF) has, and being able to hit 80% of the flicks till the point in time where he was told he was being observed. Flick shots are something that even in CS or other casual shooters are hard to make and the highlights of many compilation videos, when you consider that Warband has 3 more variables to shooting and he still performs incredibly good and has a high hit registration with them they aren't something to ignore.

2.- The big difference between Anubis and Maximou is the situations they were both caught in. Anubis was caught in-game, after a week of reports against him and personally confirming his sketchyness. Maximou was caught in the "unnamed for obvious reasons, let's call it X" forum, he personally confirmed that he did ask for help to install it but he never got to use it, and whilst that might be a lie there wasn't any recorded proof that it was indeed used in any previous competitive matchups which highly suggested he was somewhat saying the truth or at least he could be given AT LEAST a chance. That's the main reason he was allowed to record to prove his innocence. I can guarantee you that the WSC admin team wouldn't have allowed Maximou to play if lets say he was caught cheating in IG or any other server of whatever module.

3.- You make several points that are really strange to me, from a Mercenaries admin point of view. You claim that catching an aimbotter is extremely hard, you also claim that aimbots don't snap into targets, they follow them, and lastly that predicting movement ISN'T a thing.
Well, so far, in Mercenaries we have been able to identify 4 different types of Aimbots from different sources, two of which come from the previously mentioned "X" forum and two people in particular (that if you have followed the other dramas you'll probably know their names) and two russian aimbots from a forum that I honestly can't pronounce or type, these last ones were extremely basic in comparison with the "X" forum ones and they were poorly coded which resulted on extreme twitching or weird unnatural behaviours yet they also had some complex math and features in them.
In most of the situations, even when we had to deal with with the "X" forum version there's easily seen "key" points to look at. First of which are Flicks & Twitching. The standard aimbot behaviour will work as follow: User will drag his mouse near the desired target, aimbot will then now lock and follow, predict (if it has the feature enabled) and shoot until the target is dead, IF YOU WANT, you can change your target by hard dragging outside the target which usually causes twitches if there's another nearby target as when you drag the mouse outside and there's another target nearby it will instantly lock into the other one's hitbox. Like I previously mentioned, this is specially visible in the more basic versions but the principle still stands in every case of aimbot I've seen so far. One example of an extreme case of twitching: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMwfbZasook

Another big key point is Hit Registration or simply, Accuracy. Both Mercenaries and Native are somewhat similar when it comes to the basics of Archery, but since I don't have specific data about Native I'm going to use where he was caught. I'll expand this data later but the characters Anubis used from March 25th to March 31th (The day he was told he was being investigated for cheating) had a Hit Registration of 68%, which means that in a hypothetical enviroment he'll land 7 shots out of 10 from his quiver. Keep in mind his most played server was Mercenaries_EU2 AKA: Siege, where most of the shooting is involved in medium distances and mostly over walls, which fair enough, makes targetting easier. Out of those 40% of which were registered in the chest area, 35% were headshots and the remaining 25% where either arm or leg shots. We personally witnessed Anubis make 20 flick shots (a very big amount of them but since he uses that playstyle is understandable), 17 of which where successful hits, that includes the ones in the GIF (along with the 0,000425 sec flick), which I've seen you repeatedly say, oh yeah they probably failed. I can personally guarantee you that they didn't.

And when you look Warbands archery mechanics there's 4 main variables in the shot to look at (Distance to target, Target's speed, Movement pattern and Projectile speed) and on top of that these lovely things called Shields, all of these can change in a second and that is why catching an aimbot isn't as easy as it is on CS for example where the guy will just headshot, headshot, headshot, but they are still easy ways to identify them. Like I mentioned accuracy is a big important factor for catching cheaters, one big example of a known cheater that had a very similar hit registration is Pasha, aka Frank (you guys know who he is) had a hit registration of 71%. Having high hit registration in the span of 2 hours is doable, extremely hard, but achievable. Having high hit registration in multiple days? Impossible without some sort of aiming assist. Also as a funny note I've got a video recorded of Frank's point of view which again, has a very similar playstyle to what we saw with Anubis and here it is.

(click to show/hide)

And lastly stats. Yes, stats aren't definitive proof that someone is or isn't cheating but they can be used to strengthen our other points, in this case, as it has always been with previous cheater experiences we'd follow a routine. We would investigate his experiences, record as much material as we could and then compare it once we contact the guy, unless of course we are 100% sure that the guy cheats, like we did the youtube video guy I've posted before. So I've went ahead and I've made a table. I'll merge Anubis results and compare them to the results of the best first 4 archers I could find at the time of me writing this, which are, Menethil, Sparta, Lagstro and Elendir (the last one is a renown archer from the Mercs community) and as Lagstro doesn't play Mercenaries I've added Rainbow's stats for the parts where Lagstro himself can't add because we dont have data about it. And this is what I got.



DISCLAIMER: Just in case you ask I've merged the data I had from both EU1 and EU2 (battle and siege respectively) his K/Ds and results where considerably better in Siege (as expected from an archer) and that's why in some cases the Kills and Deaths along with the K/Ds may not match up.

Now, and like I previously mentioned from the very same day (31th of March) he was TOLD that he was being investigated and under vigilance he became overall less effective in ALL aspects. He now had very similar stats as other really good archers which supports the idea that up until that moment he had been using Aimbot.


4.- And lastly, recreation. He was asked to provide all counter proof he could. To which he only sent a video of about 20-30ish minutes. I do believe that the language barrier was the problem here and he didn't understood when I asked about multiple things but when he was explicity asked several times to provide ALL he could to replicate it and he only sents one thing (a quick response, yeah) but still one thing it doesn't gives him the best image. Now the important part here and what we looked was if he was able to replicate what he had been doing. To see his 1st person POV of those flick shots and overall see how effective he was, he said he had a potato pc (yet he had 100-130 fps in the whole recording) but still may have affected it but we were looking at playstyle, not that because he missed 1 shot he'd  aimbottink!1!. To our surprise we did see some sort of "similar-ish" behaviour but not only looked a bit forced but things he was able to hit before with ease now he was constantly missing. He would normally shoot extremely quickly but now was taking considerably longer, he'd risk shots a lot more (presumably because he knew the aimbot would do the work) and get way closer to shoot yet we didn't see anything like that. Longer shots that he'd previously hit now weren't there. Snapping wasn't present (thing that we did see from our spectating sessions) and his flickshots were far from perfect. The scarce twitching from time to time was now COMPLETELY GONE.  This is the equivalent of having a suspect of murder with his fingerprints in the body, blood in his clothes the same type of knife in his kitchen and a photograph of the guy coming outside the victims house. Don't get me wrong, the video he recorded was pretty good for the most part but nothing like we had seen, and that's why he was banned.


Greed, like it or not, the data doesn't help, proof that you continously counter-argue with things that make absolutely no sense is more than valid enough and most of the things don't match-up (and don't get me wrong) if you REALLY want, I can go frame by frame explaining why and what to look at and counter argue what you said (even though I pretty much already did in point 3) but I feel that a community ban of a year-ish might help him reconsider what he did, just as we did in the past with Arni.

 
PS: I know that speaking with "X" and not fully disclosing names is a bit edgy, and I know that a simple search will show these individuals and pages but at least it won't be me the one revealing them, I hope everyone understands and does the same.

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Re: [WBL] Questions & Suggestions
« Reply #41 on: April 25, 2018, 02:52:35 AM »
W T F

Jorge Salcedo

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Re: [WBL] Questions & Suggestions
« Reply #42 on: April 25, 2018, 05:52:55 AM »
I legit got halfway through and then died
« Last Edit: April 25, 2018, 06:33:14 AM by Lil Riccii »

๖Kern

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Re: [WBL] Questions & Suggestions
« Reply #43 on: April 25, 2018, 06:18:04 AM »
I was expecting Alecks to post sooner or later, but this is probably one of the best constructive posts in a while. Thanks for your input.

Rey_

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Re: [WBL] Questions & Suggestions
« Reply #44 on: April 25, 2018, 07:59:06 AM »
I actually read through all that. FML