Historical Accuracy

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Lowlandlord

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Let me first say I think this is a great mod, one of the best, only reason I play other mods is to ride horses and swing a katana. I'm not talking about historical accuracy here to complain or poke holes in the mod and I'm not just posting a long thing in Suggestions and Feedback because I don't want to suggest anything, just because there are some historical inaccuracies doesn't mean I think we should change them, gameplay, balancing and workload of any changes vs. new improvements are more important. But this will give a little section for people who don't know what a fyrdman or hide is to find out if they care, and me to blab on about stuff from 1130 or so years ago.
 
Alright so first I'll quickly hit some things that are accurate.

Weapon Rarity and Design 
Swords being rare, considering the amount of trouble to get iron or steel and then to get someone trained in working it into a sword (not just a weapon, spear and arrowheads are relatively easy) the cost is huge, then add on that a sword contains enough metal for several axe heads or spear heads and at this time iron was so hard to come by that the Irish altered all foreignly introduced designes to be lighter and contain less metal, so far that a spear which would have two rivets when made by the Vikings would have one when made by the Irish. Every nut and bolt counted. Alot of it was probably imported, not so strange, most Scottish claymores used 7+ centuries from the games time would of been made in Germany or Italy and imported, infact the German's greatswords might come from them liking what they were selling to the island so they made some for themselves. Swordsize and shape is alsor pretty spot on, they were apparently a little shorter than those used by the Brits against the Romans centuries before, before the Germanic tribes and Vikings they were lighter and not as sturdy, so when the locals saw these foreign swords they copied the designs so everyone had a very similar style. Everyone also liked to copy Viking axes. For their part Vikings copied some local styles for other things, namely javelins and spears.

Land, Taxes and Military Service
Its not specifically stated but when you get your little piece of land, your fief, thats roughly proportional to having a "hundred", that is 100 hides, whereas each hide is about 10 hectares and can support 1 family (the actual sized varied, some land sucked so it was more like 12 hectares, some land was good so only 6 was needed). That would roughly make you a Reeve (old english for Sheriff), but this mod doesn't currently support a ranking and title system. As each family worked the land they made enough to feed themselves and to pay a form of taxes to an overlord person who would use them to pay for weapons and armour and to perhaps pay for underlings equipment. Germanic Kings and nobles would have personal gaurds called Housecarls, that is Housemen, who aquired all of their equipment, food and board from their lord in exchange for serving him, this makes them kind of a landless elite warrior class. Originally 1 hide was supposed to be able to support 1 thegn but after about 250 years technologies improved and prices went up so that it required 5 hides to support 1 thegn on average. These thegns were a seperate nobles class from the peasents, the only work REQUIRED of them was military. The bulk of the army was composed of fyrdmen, that is the normal peasent types, part-time farmer part-time soldier, for equipment, well most of their taxes went into the thegn or reeve's maille and axe, they got spears, a shield, maybe tough clothes. Not really that bad for the times.

Common German Tactics and Equipment
Basic tactic was the shield wall, (F8+F1) everone stands close together in a rectangular formation, shields ready, cavalry charges can't get through, arrows and javelins are so so, works best at the op of a hill or river. Of course some members would return fire, usually with thrown weapons, namely stones (cheap and affortable, realistically, rock to the head can make you plenty dead), slings (rock X 10), javelins (good for range and weight, can usually carry 2-3, 1 at the read with a spare or 2 in the shield hand, strategy as old as Rome), throwing axes (great for smashing shields, real ones also would bounce unpredicatbly so throw them down and bounce and ignore the shield, Franks used to use them in a huge volley, who needs to aim when you throw 100 axes at 100 guys in formation and then you charge them? AXES DID NOT DISAPPEAR AT LEAST UNTIL HASTINGS). Bows actually weren't that common except amongst the Vikings, who used an early type of longbow and some Hunnish style bows. Even the Britons who were famous for the longbow in several centuries did not really make use of the longbow at this time, the bows they did use to a limited extent was a flat bow (if you need the differences explained, wikipedia has an alright article, Flatbow one word). When two shield walls meet its like a shield bashing match with short stabs at legs and unprotected areas, but it is not really reproducable in the game, and it would be rather slow and boring comparatively. Its also worth noting that most of the Vikings, the so called Great Heathen Army, were better equiped and trained than the Saxons, or any other military on the Islands, these people have raided Russia (parts of which were a Viking Kingdom at this time), the Middle East (anyone who watches the Thirteenth Warrior, parts of that happened, just not the Thirteenth Warrior part) and Parts of France (which had Normandy as a safe harbour now). When they found better loot than what they were wearing they traded up, it was therefor not uncommon for Vikings to be equipped in fine Persian armours with a Hunnish bow and a huge Danish axe. They also had direct access to Northern Germany which was apparently better equiped on average than the south.

Common Briton Tactics and Equipment
Britons did not, to my knowledge, make as much use of the shield wall formation, they preferred mobility and lightness, their Irish cousins at the time barely wore anything that could be considered armour, cloaks, pants and shields which is a couple steps up from a millenia before when it was tattoos and shields. Alot of slings and javelines, light leather and cloth armour, shields and spears. In most Briton Kingdoms they liked to ride alot and throws javelins from horseback, the Welsh Kingdoms had problems with horses at this time though and so they had practically no cavalry. Spears were a popular weapon, as it had been for the Celtic people for centuries. Guerilla warfare and dawn raids were their preferred tactics, and making use of the terrain of Wales, that is hills, mountains and rivers. Its worth noting that Wales and the Brits are one of the few peoples in Europe who resisted the Germanic Hordes that conquered Gaul, Spain, Italy and parts of Greece. Thats more than enough for this post.
 
This post is gonna hopefully be short (I always say that and I always write huge long poorly worded confusing things so good luck if anyone actually decides to read this). Mostly I'm gonna go through a few historical inaccuracies.

The Sons of Ragnar and stupid letters (ð)
First, Lothbrokson, there is noone in history that I know of called Lothbrokson, there is a Ragnar Lodbrokson (the cognomen means Hairy Breeks, Breeks being a Scots word for troussers, I guess he had a pair of pants made from a bear or something), some quick research showes that one Bernard Cornwell (whoes novels I have to pickup, they look good) used this as opposed to the standard of Ragnarsson, I have no idea why maybe he thought it was funny to name several historic noble Vikings (see psychotic lunatics, one with a snake-in-his-eye) Son of Hairy Breeks, personally I agree, I mean that is the wierdest cognomen in history, one of his kids was called Snake-In-the-Eye because there was an Ouroboros in his eye, another was called the Boneless for vairous possible reasons, possibly because he couldn't walk, but Ragnar, one of the greatest Kings of all is known for his pants? Pants are funny enough by themselves. Loth instead of Lod is simple, Thor is called Donar is some Germanic dialects, the wierd looking d character used can apparently go either way, I barely speak English let alone anything else though.

Kingdoms of the Britons
Moving on, Wales is depicted as one united country under Rhodri, not exactly accurate, it is at least 7 Kingdoms, 3 of which Rhodri did inherit, although the third Seisyllwg (south, far east of where his Llancarfan is) was not inherited for 5 years. He did infact at this time rule Gwynedd (Northern most Kingdom, includes the Island of Anglesey where Rhodri had his capital) and Powys (east, Wikipedia has maps, not great but yeah). Course having several kingdoms in such a small area when the Saxons and Danes are there to fight would be kinda annoying and pointless and although the logical might question them fighting each other, history has proven that peoples like fighting each, especially Celts (look at Irish and Scot history). The Scots Raiders (which is redundant because Scot means raider) are from Strathclyde, Strathclyde is a Briton Kingdom, it is conquered by the Scots in the next couple of centuries but is not truly a Scot Kingdom at this time, those would be Dal Riada on the West Coast and the Pictish Kingdom of Caledonia currently ruled by Constantin mac Cinead, son of the founder of Scotland. They should also fight more like the Britons, with an emphasis on the mounted Teulu. Oh and I think the Corns still had a whole Kingdom over there, Dumnomia or something, annoyed Wessex or something, got some help from the Danes who had some deal with them to help fight the Saxon dogs.

York and the Kingdom of Northumbria
Eoferic is the Saxon name for York, Danes would of called it Jorvik (which as I recall would be pronounced like Yorvik, not too far from the modern name). Kings of Northumbria (the Danelaw at this time) would be Alla and Osberht, course their both loosers and better left out, the Danes replaced them with Ecgberht. Technically the head of the Great Heathen Army was Halfdan not Ivar, who would eventually become the King of Jorvik in 75 (seperate from the King of Northumbria). Thats it for now, please feel free to add in anyone, hopefully I'm not the only one talking (or rambling). Oh, and a number of personages (mostly Danes I think, like Earl Ragnar the Fearless) are fictional and taken from the Bernard Cornwell novels, the more Earls to give me jobs the better I say.

Mounted Thegns
Although horse riding was common amonst the English, they generally used it to act as mounted infantry, that is they rode into position and dismounted to fight as infantry. The majority of the armies were farmer fyrdmen or thengs who recieved their income and equipment from farms so its likely that everyone had horses, as I recall all 7000 of Harold Godwinson's army were supposed to have rode to Hastings, probably with some trading of horses as he was fighting in York when he found out William was coming. Despite all the horses, the English only very very rarely fought from horse, all documented cases from before the French conquest seem to take place in the 1050s, and the usual result appears to have been a loss for the English "because they had been made to fight on horseback".
 
There, hope thats a little better, organization and stuff is not really my forte and I wrote this while I was getting some insomnia.
 
Because I love them and they're really the only other people on the damn island to write about and theres the slim chance that they may show up in a future version, the Picts.

Background
The Picts are a bit of a mystery, generally lacking any written record except that which is written by others (Britons, Romans and the Irish). According to their own legends, the first King was Cruithne who came from Scythia (roughly the modern Ukraine, other legends suggest through Egypt, some Pict animal art does depict North African animals like elephants and crocodiles so maybe, there has always been a noted similarity between Celtic cultures and Scythia), he had 7 sons, Cait, Ce, Cirig, Fib, Fidach, Fotla and Fortrenn. Each of these sons got a small kingdom in what is now North-Eastern Scotland, some names still partially exist, Caithness for instance, in addition to these 7 Pictish Kingdoms (which operated underneath 2 [or 1 very competent and bloody] High King, a North and South) Scotland had Dal Riada (which through intermarriage and violence became the same Kingdom starting in 736 under King Oengus of the Picts) to the west, basically all of the west coat and islands south of Skye, Goddodin to the south on the otherside of the Firth of Forth (which was swallowed up in the 7th century by Srathclyde, Northumbria and the Picts) and lastly Strathclyde (which was conquered by Oengus in 744, although they bounced back and were only finally conquered in the 11th century) which had what is now Glasgow and much of the Lothians (apparently named after the Arthurian King Lot who was king of Orkney, the first home in the British Isles to the Picts. Glasgow itself was apparently founded by his son, Kertigern mac Lot, more known as St. Mungo). They were apparently a Celtic people, with a language somewhere between Brythonic (Welsh, Cornish, Breton) and Goidelic (Irish and Scotch-Gaelic), they migrated to Orkney and then conquered the weakened (by Roman genocidal programs) Caledonians. They were known for their boats (Pict might refer to pictum, latin for painted, or several Celtic words refering to boats and pirates) and fierce fighters (in the Ulster Cycle Cu Chulainn is told that if he wants to be a better warrior there are special schools to train at, Domnall Mildemail's in Alba and Scathach who according to legend had her place on Skye). It certainly seems likely that "painting" themselves was not legendary, in 787 the Northumbria Church outlawed diabolo instinctu (diabolic marks), probably as a result of an influx of Picts after a brief period of Scot rule. There artistic depictions of people certainly leave something to be desired, but, as a quote (that I'll have to para-phrase for a lacking of exactness) I once read said "their animals have a spark of life never apparent in their people".

Arms and Equipment
Spears, javelins, bows, swords, crossbow, axe, shield and buckler. Note the complete lack of armour mentioned, all carvings depict either clothing (cloaks and tunics) or nakedness (which was probably more for dueling, especially in the later period), the only time appropriate armour finds I've heard of are some bits of scale mail, very likely loot from fighting the vikings and so quite possibly from as close as far as Constantinople. And yes, crossbows, some carvings depicting crossbow like things have survived and some parts from the period have been found, very likely for hunting rather than fighting, although in Celtic society in general at this time bows were all considered tools that could be used to fight with, not as weapons which is why they weren't as popular as say javelins whoes only purpose is as a weapon. A single piece of a spangelhelm was found once. Axes are common, commonly with a T shaped blade (the top part being the blade, kinda like that Atgeir in game). Shields were the main defense, but they were not large, only amongst the infantry would they have been as big as the shields in game. The common Pict shield was a square buckler, quite small in size, sometimes looking like an H (2 gaps top and bottom). The Aberlemno Battle Stone shows 3 ranks of Picts repelling enemy Cavalry (who have a nasal helmet of somekind, likely they are the Strathclydes and the battle is under Oengus in 744), front rank sword and shield, 2nd rank spear and shield, 3rd rank spear, possibly a longer spear, although proportions in the stone are the same. To the left and right they also show unhelmeted longhaired Picts riding against the enemy, it is my understanding that the normal Pict likely fought from horse and that the normal Freepeople who were required to provide military service usually filled the role of infantry, that a law existed in Scotland of apparent ancient origin that land owners own a horse (land being giving to people so that they could afford weaponry and training this essiantly says warriors must own horses whereas normal Freepeoples [exempting women after 698] would need to own an axe or spear and present them twice a year). Stirrups were only in Viking possession at the time though (as trophies from the east) so the style of mounted combat was different from what M&B usually shows, javelin throwing, perhaps a weak charge with spear, not couched but held out from the body (couched really only picked up around the 11th century).
 
Lowlandlord said:
... stupid letters (ð) ...
... Loth instead of Lod is simple, Thor is called Donar is some Germanic dialects, the wierd looking d character used can apparently go either way, I barely speak English let alone anything else though.

It's usually pronounced "Tonar" or "Thonar", even if it's written "Donar".

The Ð is an "Eth", and is pronounced as such throughout most of the world.  It's just a soft "th".  Some languages (Faroese, mainly) elide it most of the time, but in Icelandic, Saami, Old English, and many others, it is used to denote a "th" sound after the beginning of a word (as opposed to the thorn rune, which is used at the beginning of a word for a deeper "th" sound).

My username is, pretty much, pronounced "Yo-u-ooth" (hence the "Geoguth" units used in this mod, they're young nobles/military types), since the "G" wasn't intoned as much as it is in modern Germanic and Scandinavian languages.

Haha, linguisticism!
 
Linguisticism gives me head ache, bunch of idiots using g like a y, or j like a h, why can't everone just learn proper Canadian english and make my life simpler?

Good to know anyways, thanks.
 
Bunch of Idiots? Not everyone is taught in a county where they learn english, Even though British English is the most spoken language in the world, it doesnt mean everyone HAS to speak it.

And not everyone has to learn proper english, if you cant understand them  and they actualy know enlish your as dumb as dumby macdumb of the dumb highland of dumbtown.
 
Nahkuri said:
He was kidding, you dolt.
I gotta second this.  :???: And believe me, it's hard to understand the English of average internet-users if you are really good at it. Things like your, you're, where, weir, were, is read in an instant by the better English speakers. If any of those is off, he has to read the sentence again, and look carefully to see what it means.
Even though British English is the most spoken language in the world, it doesnt mean everyone HAS to speak it.
It is sort of the official second language. So it would be wise to learn it. But yea, you're right. Not everyone has to learn it.


Anyhow,

What is this F8-F1 I hear so many people talking about? Shield wall? o.0 Huh?

Servitor
 
Yeah i believe spanish is actually the language spoken by most people in the world... spain, plus millions in south, central and north america.

And did you know the letter j was invented because the saxons couldn't pronounce the "yuh" sound given by an "i" in some latin words. (I think... i may be getting confused here :razz: )
 
Language           Speakers (Millions)         Where Spoken (Major)

1 Mandarin Chinese    1120                 China, Malaysia, Taiwan
2 English                  510                   USA, UK, Australia, Canada, New Zealand
3 Hindi                   490                   North and Central India
4 Spanish                  425                 The Americas, Spain
5 Arabic                   255                   Middle East, Arabia, North Africa
6 Russian                  254                   Russia, Central Asia
7 Portuguese              218                Brazil, Portugal, Southern Africa
8 Bengali                  215                    Bangladesh, Eastern India
9 Malay, Indonesian    175                    Indonesia, Malaysia, Singapore
10 French                 130                France, Canada, West Africa, Central Africa
11 Japanese              127                  Japan
12 German                123               Germany, Austria, Switzerland, Central Europe

So...when you're as good in Mandarin as we non-English speakers are in English, let us know...
 
Haha, and my french teacher was making these stupid facts on her board:

France has the third strongest military,

France is the second most spoken language...etc
 
Those stats don't tell the whole story of language though, do they. Those stats seem to be for the official language used day to day in certain countries by the native population, which isn't the only significant thing to consider. English has become a globally important language because of the economic and military power of the native English speaking countries (first and foremost England during the days of the Industrial Revolution and the British Empire, nowadays of course American economic power is surely a good reason as well).

I admire the many foreigners who can speak English, at any standard, it is a talent and something to be proud of. However, this doesn't occur because foreign people are more naturally inclined to learn new languages, it is because it is encouraged and seen as in the self interest of the individuals and countries concerned. English is very important in political and business circles because of England's past and present prosperity. These reasons are also why Mandarin Chinese isn't a commonly learnt language in Western countries or, I imagine, other countries outside of SE Asia- there has been no pressing need for it.
 
Well...how one language gains a position it has is a matter of debate.

French is widely a language of diplomacy. Italian has been adopted in classical music. Latin is still the base of biology and medicine. Not really because of military might, but rather cultural influence.
All civilizations knew a "lingua franca" or "common language", which enabled various ethnic groups to communicate.
Coming from a mothertongue of not more than about two million native speakers, I have to know other languages to be able to communicate to people. So my knowledge of English, though not imposed on me, was learned willingly, to enable me to communicate with people beyond my two million compatriots. I have not learned it because of English or American military or economic might, or to be able to speak with native English speaking people exclusively, but simply because it is so widely spread as a second language to most of the world. And why is that? Well, because it is a rather simple language to learn (if you compare it to French, German, Russian, Chinese, etc). Ok, Spanish is not too difficult either and it comes in handy if travelling central and south America. :wink:

As long as Chinese is limited mainly to China, people don't learn it much unless they inted to have something to do with China. Though we better know it by the time they take over the world, hehe.
As in that joke: If one of five people in the world is Chinese, it must also be one in my family. It could be mom, it could be dad, it could be my brother Steve or my brother Huang. I suspect it's Steve.
 
You made some good points there Triglav; in reflection my post was rather simplistic and generalizing. By the way, which language do you speak that has only 2 million native speakers? Your profile mentions the Alps so I assume you live in that region.

And I like that joke! Never heard it before, but that's probably because I live in the U.K. where there isn't a particularly a large or high profile oriental population.
 
Thank you. I always enjoy a nice linguistic debate :smile:
What got you interested in the subject?
 
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