I wonder if the above suggestions could be implemented in-game at PoP 3.8.
It is a bit strange to see pikemen overhead-slamming their pikes on their enemies' head, though it's certainly welcome when halberdiers do that.
Well I just whipped this up for 3.7063 if anybody wants to try it: http://www.mediafire.com/download/sv222eh5v3eheg5/PoP_overhead_stabbing_crouching_pike_bracing_formations.7z
Features:
Overhead stabbing for spear weapons (both 2h and 1h)
Pike bracing for pike weapons (polearms that can't be used with a shield and have long reach)
Full crouching support
Unlocked Y axis for punches so you can aim them
2 halfswordable and 2 mordhauable swords, both 2h and 1h
WFAS formations which won't interfere with PoP's formation commands due to the PoP commands being bound to letter keys rather than function keys, can be disabled by opening the module.ini and setting use_advanced_formation = 1 to 0
UI support for the formations and crouching
If there's any issues don't hesitate to post or PM me and I'll fix it ASAP.
I wonder if the above suggestions could be implemented in-game at PoP 3.8.
It is a bit strange to see pikemen overhead-slamming their pikes on their enemies' head, though it's certainly welcome when halberdiers do that.
Well I just whipped this up for 3.7063 if anybody wants to try it: http://www.mediafire.com/download/sv222eh5v3eheg5/PoP_overhead_stabbing_crouching_pike_bracing_formations.7z
Features:
Overhead stabbing for spear weapons (both 2h and 1h)
Pike bracing for pike weapons (polearms that can't be used with a shield and have long reach)
Full crouching support
Unlocked Y axis for punches so you can aim them
2 halfswordable and 2 mordhauable swords, both 2h and 1h
WFAS formations which won't interfere with PoP's formation commands due to the PoP commands being bound to letter keys rather than function keys, can be disabled by opening the module.ini and setting use_advanced_formation = 1 to 0
UI support for the formations and crouching
If there's any issues don't hesitate to post or PM me and I'll fix it ASAP.
I wonder if the above suggestions could be implemented in-game at PoP 3.8.
It is a bit strange to see pikemen overhead-slamming their pikes on their enemies' head, though it's certainly welcome when halberdiers do that.
Well I just whipped this up for 3.7063 if anybody wants to try it: http://www.mediafire.com/download/sv222eh5v3eheg5/PoP_overhead_stabbing_crouching_pike_bracing_formations.7z
Features:
Overhead stabbing for spear weapons (both 2h and 1h)
Pike bracing for pike weapons (polearms that can't be used with a shield and have long reach)
Full crouching support
Unlocked Y axis for punches so you can aim them
2 halfswordable and 2 mordhauable swords, both 2h and 1h
WFAS formations which won't interfere with PoP's formation commands due to the PoP commands being bound to letter keys rather than function keys, can be disabled by opening the module.ini and setting use_advanced_formation = 1 to 0
UI support for the formations and crouching
If there's any issues don't hesitate to post or PM me and I'll fix it ASAP.
Not really. This video here shows the two-handed overhead thrust animation, it´s from WFaS but the same animation is also present in Warband. Doesn´t seem weird to me.
Its used in WFAS and viking conquest since its buffs those weapons...and because it looks "cool"
Still weird.
After watching that video it seems even weirder. How can one hold such a long polearm above ones head and use it effectively?
Exactly. Unlike overhead swing, overhead thrust cannot be interrupted by somebody getting behind the spearman/pikemen, it does pierce damage and it works against "facehuggers". Since a spear/pike thrust cannot be aimed, this is the second best course of action to make those weapons effective.
hoboistice's suggestion on adding overhead stab, a better looking crouch animation, pike bracing, halfswording and mordhau seems to be a very good addition for PoP 3.8! Props for that, as it would greatly improve the gameplay with various troops and it will also fix some awkward moments with certain units!
I tried out these a little bit myself, and so far I'm quite pleased with the results. For those who would like to see how all these "new" animations would look like in PoP without having to make those changes, I took some screenshots:
1. Overhead stab:
I mainly recommend these screenies for those who think overhead stabbing looks "weird". In case of lances, I have to tell you that it doesn't look any "weirder" than it was.
For a measure, here is a normal thrust with the Banner of Sarleon:
And here is the overhead stab with same weapon:
As you can see in both cases, the player character holds a 4m long lance in one hand. If we can go along with the original one, I don't see a problem with applying the overhead version too.
As Articulo34 mentioned, the overhead stabbing cannot be interrupted if someone is behind you or a given unit, and it can be used in much close quarters than the normal thrust. This gives a major boost to the effectiveness of troops who decide to wield a lance or a spear as an only melee weapon on foot. So units like Hero / Heroine Adventurers, Rangers of the Clarion Call, Empire Armored Pikeman, etc. would have a decent fighting chance against facehuggers, especially in sieges. If the thrust damage would be increased in case of certain weapons, it would be even better.
Hero adventurers who chose to use a lance on foot, are now a force to be reckoned with in melee, even in sieges (note: almost all kills were done by those who were doing overhead thrusts):
The Empire Armored Pikemen for instance, who chose an awlpike instead of a halberd can kick some ass too now (look at the robber in the middle, a split second before he meets his creator due to an overhead thrust into the face):
Overhead stab with spears and pikes seems all fine and quite realistic to me:
2. Crouch and bracing polearms:
The crouch animation from NW / WFaS look much better than the broken Warband crouch. It can be used by both the player character and your troops to take cover, brace polearms, or to provide a smaller target for ranged enemies:
Bracing polearms in this case is automatic for those who didn't know, you just have to crouch with certain two handed polearms, and you will notice the difference in the animation if you don't move for a little while.
Holding a spear while crouching, without bracing it:
And bracing the same spear (see the difference):
You can also brace halberds for example:
3. Halfswording:
Using this mode of swords (press X), the player or the AI should receive a boost to the thrust damage of a sword (piercing damage) for sacrificing any other options for swinging.
Halfswording with a two handed sword:
Although it can look a little strange when someone is actually holding a sword by its blade, however there are some swords, like the Pendor Great Sword or the Zweihander, that have two crossguards. If you apply halfswording to these swords, they look really well in my opinion (the picture is actually from ACOK 2.2):
4. Mordhau:
Now this is a really unusual technique:
However this addition would provide a fix for the awkward moment when you order your troops who are wielding a sword to use blunt weapons in order to make someone prisoner. Instead of a hilarious, otherwise pathetic fistfight, your troops should use their swords flipped over, to make blunt damage with the pommel and the crossguard. For me, this seems a more reasonable choice for those who are holding a sword: use the other side of it, instead of taking unnecessary risks in a handfight!
Also, I wanted to ask, what do the developers think, will there be graphical improvements for the battlefields, the world map and the flora in general in PoP 3.8? I am mainly talking about the following graphical submods, which I installed all over PoP 3.7063 in the given order, just for fun.
- Lucke189's Realistic Colors v1.22 (without taller grass, as it is not compatible with polished landscapes, it should be overwritten with PL anyways)
- Graphic Mod Pack for Brytenwalda v1.41, packed by idibil, with Gutekfiutek's polished landscapes and CHUR's calradia in darkness inside. You will need mainly calradia in darkness, as most of the other parts will be overwritten with the next graphical submod, which also has Polished Landscapes, but with fixed collision meshes and other small fixes.
- HooTmAn's Graphical SubMod for PoP 3.7063 V1.7 (with Polished Landscapes, fixed tavern sounds, expended horizons and polished map icons). This contains numerous invisible collision fixes and it also fixes all weirdly placed trees too, which were coming from the plain Polished Landscapes mod.
- lucky lancer's Texture Fiddling v1.0 (Some elements are really performance demanding or make the land map / battle map look grainy and too shiny, I didn't install these parts)
- Charan's Polished Skyboxes Addon
- CptJoker's Real Water Mod v1.1
- SendMeSmile's Improved Buildings v1.05a
- Adorno's Arena Overhaul mod v1.0
- lucky lancer's Training Fields v1.0
- neil_v's Blood Enhancement Tweak v0.5 (#4 is the best looking)
I'm quite amazed with the results:
The fps loss for me is really minor after using these, something like -5-10% at maximum. So the performance impact is not that big imo. There is an alternative flora_kinds.txt in the Data folder of the graphic mod for Brytenwalda, that will make you have much more dense forests, for the costs of performance. I used this file too while I was making my screenshots (more screenies at the link below, part 3.2).
Also, while I am at it, what do you guys think about my suggestions in the Fan Suggestion Thread, found here (middle of page 136, Part 1-3): https://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,268612.2025.html ?
Sadly, only two people noticed them back then, and I wanted to start a bigger conversation about those, if you don't mind. I'm just curious about your opinions, that's all .
Gorvex:
I played one mod with spear bracing, I didnt find it very cool. One spearmen can ruin whole army of cavalry, because his bracing deals huge damage and effectively dehorses all cavalry units. Something like cooldown(couching lance) or only one time per battle, instead of countinuous death point, with damage equals to 2-3x pierce thrust damage, amplified by raiders speed? The formula cannot be: 100 damage every 0.5 seconds for every horseman in the vicinity of the spearmen. That would make spearmen+archers way stronger than any other combinations, considering different thrust options.
Arena... Do you know how exploitable are those "additions"? Npcs get lost there, bugged, players can abuse locations with jump. Whats more, if those are arenas for fair fight, how can abusing of terrain be fair? Who would NOT go to even, open ground to resolve dispute, show off his skill, etc? I dont see how ruins or parks could be choosen as fighting grounds. Not to say regular arenas.
Im not a big fan of graphical mods, if those reduce fps particularly, but I understand when people cannot look at something becuse its so ugly. If there are options to leave most graphical changes at lowest performance cost, Im okay with that.
Other changes are nice and interesting, adding other factions outposts as major factions seems a bit over the top, but manageable.
I'd love some mechanics or changes to preserve minor factions from being destroyed before I could even properly fight them. Thats the only thing missing for me, more endgame challenges.
I am afraid I have to speak against this. Not because I have anything against the feature, but because of engine limitations.
The thing is the AI will not compensate for a crouching enemy, anything that is not melee will continue to aim for where the head would be were the unit standing, thus creating a penalty for the best archers. It would be much safer to crouch in front of several Noldor than in front of several Sarleon Longbowmen, and that is absurd.
Once again, nothing against these features. But it would require some reorganization of the items file, as new items would have to be added immediately after the ones that would use either Halfswording or Mordhaus. Not sure if the devs would be up to something like that.
Yeah, I know that spear bracing can be OP, if the correct counter measures are not taken into the game. A saw this problem kinda "solved" by adding cooldown time as you've said, or by making lances and spears breakeable, so that after 2-3 bracing/couching in average, the spears will break. That means that spearmen would be effective only against the 1st and probably the 2nd wave of incoming cavalry, not more. Also, in case of melee-oriented knights, who have a lance with a backup weapon too, this breaking feature would force them to switch to their sidearms after a while (swords, maces, etc). I know that it is very hard to find a balance in new mechanics without game-breaking changes, as it needs a lot of testing / editing, and such. Either way, I'm already pleased how PoP is currently, but having those various changes could spice up the game even more, which I think is always nice, if it is manageable at all.
Arenas in Adorno's pack can be abused indeed, as you can jump to places where the AI definitely can't follow you (it would be hilarious if the AI could do that too btw ). However you DON'T have to be "cheaty", as it is always you, the player who decides what to do and what not. If you fight the enemy normally, like taking them head-on, it is a really cool change imo, as every single arena looks different and much more detailed than the native ones. The AI have occasionally some pathfinding issues, yes, but they can always manage to find a way out in a few seconds. What gives me the headache in normal arena fights (not tournaments) is that the AI seems to give priority towards the player character. In every round I have like 5 men who decides to gangbang me and me only, even if they spawn next to each other at the other end of the arena.
As for the graphical submods in general, I understand that it is one of the most important aspects to keep the performance demands of the mod low, in order to make it more popular. However I am running PoP on a laptop from 2009, at 300 battlesize with high graphics, and I can hardly notice any difference in performance after installing the submods I mentioned.
And more endgame challenges would be most welcomed by me too
I didn't know that the AI in case of ranged units will still aim for the head of a standing character, even when crouched. I didn't had the time so far to test things out like this . I have to agree that if this is truly the case, it would be absurd indeed. (Or not, as the Noldor would be so shocked to see that unusually new human warfare, that as a result, they would constantly miss over their heads ) I'm just asking, is it manageable to change the AI accordingly with or without the source code of Warband itself? I mean there are mods, like Floris Expanded, where the behaviour of the AI in battlefields is changed at some extent, but I guess these kind of things are more like hidden orders given to the troops in different case-scenarios, rather than an actual change of the default AI, like aiming...
Concerning halfswording and mordhau, I was hoping that those alternative attack modes for the given weapons can be added somehow under the same item. Again, I barely know anything on how M&B Warband works, I just wanted to support the idea of hoboistice. If these alternative attack modes can be implemented only by adding other versions of the same weapons as new items, then it will be too much of a problem for the developers I guess. Like revising all the troops to ensure they have the correct items in their inventory, and there are a whole lot of items already, I don't even know how much the engine can handle, not alone the work that will be needed for that.
If nothing else, I think the overhead stab can be done without that much problem, and it doesn't have any drawbacks as far as I know concerning gameplay balance, as it will only solve the various issues with certain units with polearms in close quarters.
And don't get me wrong, I know that all these things are easier said than done, and I'm already astonished by the hard work of the Dev Team. PoP 3.8 is looking truly amazing so far, keep up the good work everyone!
@Articulo34
I'm just asking, is it manageable to change the AI accordingly with or without the source code of Warband itself? I mean there are mods, like Floris Expanded, where the behaviour of the AI in battlefields is changed at some extent
IIRC if you change the order of already existing items you have to reassign them to each troop. If you add anything in the middle you would send everything after off sequence.
@Articulo34
I'm just asking, is it manageable to change the AI accordingly with or without the source code of Warband itself? I mean there are mods, like Floris Expanded, where the behaviour of the AI in battlefields is changed at some extent
IIRC if you change the order of already existing items you have to reassign them to each troop. If you add anything in the middle you would send everything after off sequence.
Oh, allow me to clarify myself. What I meant here: Is there any way to add the extra lines for a weapon (to give you the ability to use the secondary attack mode) INSIDE the same item entry? So that globally the game recognizes them as one item, but in fact they are two separate one, depending on which attack mode is currently active. So that the items used in troops.txt won't be messed up, just like you said Then again, I guess a strong 99% that this is not a way to implement, as native Warband wouldn't have two separate item entries for throwing weapons for example if this was possible. But you know, maybe that was just the easier way back then, and that's all, and other ways exist...
Oh, allow me to clarify myself. What I meant here: Is there any way to add the extra lines for a weapon (to give you the ability to use the secondary attack mode) INSIDE the same item entry? So that globally the game recognizes them as one item, but in fact they are two separate one, depending on which attack mode is currently active. So that the items used in troops.txt won't be messed up, just like you said Then again, I guess a strong 99% that this is not a way to implement, as native Warband wouldn't have two separate item entries for throwing weapons for example if this was possible. But you know, maybe that was just the easier way back then, and that's all, and other ways exist...
Ah, that's a shame. Unless the developers have something more to say But thanks for your answers I'm looking forward to the 3.8 release I would gladly donate the Dev team for their hard work, and probably I will do that later, but currently I'm short in money
This mod is free, made by players for players, so thank you for offer, but you can spend your money on something else.
As for a halfswording & mordhau techniques it will be time consuming to add them to the game. If you have the source code, item reorganization is not the biggest problem. The most time consuming activity will be, as Articulo34 mentioned, making second instances of the items (for each sword: copy model, rotate it, move it, create entry in the items file).
Gorvex:
I played one mod with spear bracing, I didnt find it very cool. One spearmen can ruin whole army of cavalry, because his bracing deals huge damage and effectively dehorses all cavalry units. Something like cooldown(couching lance) or only one time per battle, instead of countinuous death point, with damage equals to 2-3x pierce thrust damage, amplified by raiders speed? The formula cannot be: 100 damage every 0.5 seconds for every horseman in the vicinity of the spearmen. That would make spearmen+archers way stronger than any other combinations, considering different thrust options.
You're referring to the PBOD spear bracing mechanic, this isn't that one. With that one the units stay in that position and don't move until you tell them to and there's no recovery frames or anything. With this one you have to crouch to do it, there's recovery time after each hit, the units can rotate to face the enemy at all times, and the damage is completely adjustable in the module.ini by changing the value for lance_pike_effect_speed = 3.0. Not to mention the units are exposed to any ranged units.
Articulo34 said:
I am afraid I have to speak against this. Not because I have anything against the feature, but because of engine limitations.
The thing is the AI will not compensate for a crouching enemy, anything that is not melee will continue to aim for where the head would be were the unit standing, thus creating a penalty for the best archers. It would be much safer to crouch in front of several Noldor than in front of several Sarleon Longbowmen, and that is absurd.
It's possible to get around this if the bows don't have perfect (99) accuracy, since the spread means those units will get hit.
k0nr@d said:
This mod is free, made by players for players, so thank you for offer, but you can spend your money on something else.
As for a halfswording & mordhau techniques it will be time consuming to add them to the game. If you have the source code, item reorganization is not the biggest problem. The most time consuming activity will be, as Articulo34 mentioned, making second instances of the items (for each sword: copy model, rotate it, move it, create entry in the items file).
You don't have to edit any of the meshes for those techniques, it's all done through item flags. But yes having a halfsword version and mordhau version of every sword would take time to do.
You're referring to the PBOD spear bracing mechanic, this isn't that one. With that one the units stay in that position and don't move until you tell them to and there's no recovery frames or anything. With this one you have to crouch to do it, there's recovery time after each hit, the units can rotate to face the enemy at all times, and the damage is completely adjustable in the module.ini by changing the value for lance_pike_effect_speed = 3.0. Not to mention the units are exposed to any ranged units.
If bracing requires raider to come from certain angle relative to the spear point, im fine with that, but concern about very accurate archers vs crouched units seems unpleasant, there should be a way to not abuse this.
If bracing requires raider to come from certain angle relative to the spear point, im fine with that, but concern about very accurate archers vs crouched units seems unpleasant, there should be a way to not abuse this.
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) I'm just asking, is it manageable to change the AI accordingly with or without the source code of Warband itself? I mean there are mods, like Floris Expanded, where the behaviour of the AI in battlefields is changed at some extent, but I guess these kind of things are more like hidden orders given to the troops in different case-scenarios, rather than an actual change of the default AI, like aiming...
