No UNAC S4 FtA?
Top North American Players of All Time (Fun Poll #3 Is Up)
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You also going to do an all around list? Lot of players that 2-3 classes.
Juve number 1 PLS
Calamity said:MrNevino1 said:Did pierce even play cav? Also I was never in Wappaw, but I was originally in DoF
Edit: Also couple more notes
Redknight should be higher
Red, Heat, and Insane I think should be lower due to lack of real sample size(tournament wise) Heat and Insane both played more inf for tK in WPL. Red was suspended half of UNAC 5 and WPL.
Brave is overrated, he's a great open Map cav but has never been good on closed.
Wily is grossly underrated here, better than Gelden imo.
Also UNAC 3 KoA should be on here
Pierce was an absolute monster on Cav. He never stayed long enough to make a huge impact but trust me he was very good. I do think redknight is graded pretty accurately imo. He kinda fell off after UNAC 1 and kinda lost quite a bit of his skill. Dug up an old but good screenshot, shows Pierce hangin with some elite cav (pic was 2011)
Edit, posted before I was ready.
Well damn, I never knew
, always imagined him as inf ig.Anyway, again I never played for Wappaw, and I never was technically in Akaria, I scrimmed for them twice.
List of Clans+Teams Nvno has graced
Ra
Rebels
DoF
KoA
SG
FreeBanners
gross
I love it. Nothing fires people up like someone posting a list they don't agree with. 
Thanks for taking the time to make the list. It's always interesting hearing everyone's commentary.
Just my thoughts as I browsed through the lists. Keep in mind that this is my perspective as caller for wK and in a match scenario, so there are some people on this list that I didn't get to scrim much:
Competitive Teams
Infantry
Cavalry
Archers
An entertaining dynamic I've noticed in reading through these lists is that there's always this vibe of "man, this guy was awesome! If he had been on a better team, he'd be Top 5 for sure! That's the reason he never gets much respect!" But I think that's wishful thinking. In reality, yes, most of the top 15 players in any class are so close in skill that they can kill each other on any given day. But if we look at team impact and how well they've been able to shoulder their team and elevate the play, it's not as close as it seems. If you look at players like Redknight, Oodle, Mok -- the team is significantly better when they're present, not just in terms of their ability to clicky the buttons, but in terms of how they elevate the team play. Compare that with the impact from players like Red, Tito, or Hero (some of the most highly skilled players in their respective classes) and I think the difference is obvious.
P.S. Where's the PTK love for Uni?
P.P.S. Given how long I've been playing and how many teams and players I've scrimmed against -- don't feel badly if I've ranked you lower than you see yourselves. The fact that you're on my lists at all is a testament to how highly I think of you.
Just my thoughts as I browsed through the lists. Keep in mind that this is my perspective as caller for wK and in a match scenario, so there are some people on this list that I didn't get to scrim much:
Competitive Teams
- UNAC 1 TMW is the best team that TMW ever fielded. They got weaker after adding so many Euro's, not better. In S1, they had active Kherven and Rurin to round them out.
Infantry
- Dman's too high, if we're just talking about his infantry. He was good, but not better than Joe, Mok, Rhade, Uni, or Craven. He belongs more in the 15ish range.
- Both Creed and Kherven belong higher, more in the 10ish range
- Tito's too high -- he's not better than Uni or Craven at their best
- Cradoc should be in the 15-20 range. If you take Cradoc (and maybe Zaffa) out of that part of the list, you can probably drop 19-25. I haven't seen any game-changing performance out of any of them.
Cavalry
- Glad to see Redknight placed so highly. To Can and those saying that his skills dropped off, I would say you are mistaken. Redknight was an absolute allstar on both open and closed maps, and his carrying alone made Wappaw a contender for quite a long time. If you saw his skills drop off, it's because he stopped playing for like 2 years. I'd equate him to the same level of respect I give Peers and most of BkS -- if he came back to play and gave a ****, he could absolutely compete with the best now.
- Can, Hero, and Brave are ranked way too high. Can and Hero should be in the 15's. Hero, while probably one of the best sword cav the game has seen, was never much of a threat in matches. I'm not sure that Brave should be on this list. He used to be a great inf, but I'd say he's a middling cav player (open or closed).
- Blade should be lower, more like 20's. Pierce should be higher, around 10-15.
- Nevino should be higher as well, maybe 15-20.
- Greenknight, Darin, Insane, Core as cav = /shrug
- I'll ignore my own pathetically low ranking and let others toot my horn instead
Archers
- Lag and Achilles have to be the number one and number two. I'll let them fight over who gets the top spot. Maybe it's bias from watching them do so many amazing things, but it's not a question in my mind. Peers was an absolute badass and I have tons of respect for him, especially given the era he played in, but I think these two have to take the top spots. Their contributions to our team are innumerable.
- The rankings from 6-11 are all too highly ranked. I didn't watch LG play much, so chock that up to my lack of exposure. Zero was too inconsistent to be ranked that highly -- he was a great shot and productive for Balion, but too often devolved into rampant tking. Jeff and Rhad might belong in the 15's. Wolflo (wat) belongs much lower on this list, given that he only played in like one tourney (KBOOB?). I'd give him a seat in the 20's. I just don't know Deathangel well enough, and I don't want to evaluate off of his POM play. That being said, I would say lower 20's based off the matches we've played and streams I've seen.
- If you dragged the bottom half of this list into the 6 position and started from there, it would be a lot more accurate. Marnid belongs a lot higher -- To Cal's point, he was Top 3 archer with Peers and John when he played. Scope, Peasant, Robert, and African all belong in the 6-10 range. Liegraf was a stud for Wappaw and should be in at least the 15's. Clockwise's ranking is a travesty -- He was TMW's best archer through like UNAC S2, and the only archer on that team that was ever really top tier (F U Sota)
An entertaining dynamic I've noticed in reading through these lists is that there's always this vibe of "man, this guy was awesome! If he had been on a better team, he'd be Top 5 for sure! That's the reason he never gets much respect!" But I think that's wishful thinking. In reality, yes, most of the top 15 players in any class are so close in skill that they can kill each other on any given day. But if we look at team impact and how well they've been able to shoulder their team and elevate the play, it's not as close as it seems. If you look at players like Redknight, Oodle, Mok -- the team is significantly better when they're present, not just in terms of their ability to clicky the buttons, but in terms of how they elevate the team play. Compare that with the impact from players like Red, Tito, or Hero (some of the most highly skilled players in their respective classes) and I think the difference is obvious.
P.S. Where's the PTK love for Uni?
P.P.S. Given how long I've been playing and how many teams and players I've scrimmed against -- don't feel badly if I've ranked you lower than you see yourselves. The fact that you're on my lists at all is a testament to how highly I think of you.
PTK KreygasmWilySly said:Thanks for taking the time to make the list. It's always interesting hearing everyone's commentary.
Just my thoughts as I browsed through the lists. Keep in mind that this is my perspective as caller for wK and in a match scenario, so there are some people on this list that I didn't get to scrim much:
Competitive Teams
- UNAC 1 TMW is the best team that TMW ever fielded. They got weaker after adding so many Euro's, not better. In S1, they had active Kherven and Rurin to round them out.
Infantry
- Dman's too high, if we're just talking about his infantry. He was good, but not better than Joe, Mok, Rhade, Uni, or Craven. He belongs more in the 15ish range.
- Both Creed and Kherven belong higher, more in the 10ish range
- Tito's too high -- he's not better than Uni or Craven at their best
- Cradoc should be in the 15-20 range. If you take Cradoc (and maybe Zaffa) out of that part of the list, you can probably drop 19-25. I haven't seen any game-changing performance out of any of them.
Cavalry
- Glad to see Redknight placed so highly. To Can and those saying that his skills dropped off, I would say you are mistaken. Redknight was an absolute allstar on both open and closed maps, and his carrying alone made Wappaw a contender for quite a long time. If you saw his skills drop off, it's because he stopped playing for like 2 years. I'd equate him to the same level of respect I give Peers and most of BkS -- if he came back to play and gave a ****, he could absolutely compete with the best now.
- Can, Hero, and Brave are ranked way too high. Can and Hero should be in the 15's. Hero, while probably one of the best sword cav the game has seen, was never much of a threat in matches. I'm not sure that Brave should be on this list. He used to be a great inf, but I'd say he's a middling cav player (open or closed).
- Blade should be lower, more like 20's. Pierce should be higher, around 10-15.
- Nevino should be higher as well, maybe 15-20.
- Greenknight, Darin, Insane, Core as cav = /shrug
- I'll ignore my own pathetically low ranking and let others toot my horn instead
Archers
- Lag and Achilles have to be the number one and number two. I'll let them fight over who gets the top spot. Maybe it's bias from watching them do so many amazing things, but it's not a question in my mind. Peers was an absolute badass and I have tons of respect for him, especially given the era he played in, but I think these two have to take the top spots. Their contributions to our team are innumerable.
- The rankings from 6-11 are all too highly ranked. I didn't watch LG play much, so chock that up to my lack of exposure. Zero was too inconsistent to be ranked that highly -- he was a great shot and productive for Balion, but too often devolved into rampant tking. Jeff and Rhad might belong in the 15's. Wolflo (wat) belongs much lower on this list, given that he only played in like one tourney (KBOOB?). I'd give him a seat in the 20's. I just don't know Deathangel well enough, and I don't want to evaluate off of his POM play. That being said, I would say lower 20's based off the matches we've played and streams I've seen.
- If you dragged the bottom half of this list into the 6 position and started from there, it would be a lot more accurate. Marnid belongs a lot higher -- To Cal's point, he was Top 3 archer with Peers and John when he played. Scope, Peasant, Robert, and African all belong in the 6-10 range. Liegraf was a stud for Wappaw and should be in at least the 15's. Clockwise's ranking is a travesty -- He was TMW's best archer through like UNAC S2, and the only archer on that team that was ever really top tier (F U Sota)
An entertaining dynamic I've noticed in reading through these lists is that there's always this vibe of "man, this guy was awesome! If he had been on a better team, he'd be Top 5 for sure! That's the reason he never gets much respect!" But I think that's wishful thinking. In reality, yes, most of the top 15 players in any class are so close in skill that they can kill each other on any given day. But if we look at team impact and how well they've been able to shoulder their team and elevate the play, it's not as close as it seems. If you look at players like Redknight, Oodle, Mok -- the team is significantly better when they're present, not just in terms of their ability to clicky the buttons, but in terms of how they elevate the team play. Compare that with the impact from players like Red, Tito, or Hero (some of the most highly skilled players in their respective classes) and I think the difference is obvious.
P.S. Where's the PTK love for Uni?
P.P.S. Given how long I've been playing and how many teams and players I've scrimmed against -- don't feel badly if I've ranked you lower than you see yourselves. The fact that you're on my lists at all is a testament to how highly I think of you.
Thank you for all the points Wily. Will edit something when I'm home. For most of the rankings, it was one person saying "they were the best rank them top five" and another saying "that person sucked don't put them in top 25". So unfortunately people got put in the middle instead of the correct place.
To be fair I probably shouldn't be up there at all. When I was active and playing the archer competition was nearly non existant and I had been playing since early beta. When I was at my prime there was practically nobody on the North American side of the game aside from one or two other Archers that even came close. And the ones who did were often pubs and not recognized because they were not seen in competitive play. I also had a very ahead of their time support team around me and I very rarely found myself in a compromising melee situation due to having a pocket Tyrian. I feel its unfair to rank me as a best when the others who joined after beta had yet to even figure out the game.
The guys who play today are so much better than I ever was even in my pime. Including Marnid who never hesitates to rank himself above me..
The ****.
The guys who play today are so much better than I ever was even in my pime. Including Marnid who never hesitates to rank himself above me..
The ****.
22nd_Can
Sergeant Knight at Arms
WilySly said:
Exactly what I was talking about actually, he didn't play the game for a while and from what I saw, he didn't get it back when he made an effort to come back. For direct comparison, you, Gelden and Calamity didn't play the game for the same amount of time, but when you came back Cal was the only one who was able to get it back to some extent, Gelden(who would be easily top 5 if he got it back as fast as Cal) and you never got it back even though you roughly played the same amount when you came back, hence I think Cal has more consistency, which makes him better.
Also if he came back he couldn't compete with anyone right now actually(unless if he joins an already strong team and enjoys the ride), none of the top players from the past can, unless of course if they start playing and practicing etc. But ofc if they're dedicated enough they will get it back eventually, the amount of time being dependent on their individual skill.
22nd was one of the best clans easily for a long time in EU with all star players that are listed on most lists from our EU friends, we saw their return to WNL this season and they're doing mediocre at best, getting carried by the few people that kept playing. It's easy to say omg if this guy came back he'd insta kill the whole enemy team in UNAC finals, that's not how it works. I've seen it happen over and over again with players that didn't play 2-3 years trying to come back and get frustrated because it's taking too long to get to their all-star level. Unless if you can show me a couple examples of it of course, people who didn't play for years that come back and are better than the existing scene instantly.
That being said, someone might come back and surprise me, all I'm saying is that I never saw it happen so far.
WilySly said:
11/10 entertainment would read again
Sir Platypus
Banned
how much you wanna bet limes would destroy him?Squeaks said:
Rocky is the greatest warband player in NA of all time
Also no Jman as POM terrorist?
Also no Jman as POM terrorist?
22nd_Can said:
I thought the list was suppose to be "at their peak", meaning it doesn't matter when they played, at their peak they were the best at what they did and their presence were game-changers. If the list is "best today" then you can argue with what you said.
Agree with most of what Wily said.
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